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Messages - oco101

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196
General Discussion / Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« on: October 21, 2014, 03:18:37 am »
AGSers already received 6X more in every issued DAC, including BTSX.

What others DACs ?

DNS is merge and what left is Music. Music does't change the deal for PTS holder or AGS holders so it does not count.

197
General Discussion / Re: Summary of recent events / merger proposal
« on: October 20, 2014, 09:50:36 pm »
Any official announcement if Vote and DNS accepted the merger ?   

198
So, with all of that said here is my new proposal that I don't actually believe the community would accept but is just my attempt at decoy pricing. PTS holders haven't contributed anything to I3 by speculating on that asset, so cut them out entirely. AGS holders have contributed funds (either BTC or PTS that then gave I3 about 10% stake in BTSX) to I3 which has made all of this wonderful technology possible. The pre-Feb 28 AGS holders have already gotten most of their reward from the BTSX snapshot. What remains is the value contributed by post-Feb 28 AGS holders, as well as the residual value of pre-Feb 28 AGS holders that wasn't included as part of the BTSX snapshot. Use the after-drop-off price immediately after Feb 28 to calculate the residual value that is distributed to pre-Feb 28 AGS holders. Use the total value contributed to the AGS fundraiser after Feb 28 until the end of the AGS campaign to distribute to post-Feb 28 AGS holders. Give them a little bonus to compensate them for opportunity costs (let's say a prorated 5% p.a. yield), and distribute that amount of value to them through diluted BTS. Done. The BTSX community wouldn't even need to that, but might do it anyway to be fair and not piss too many people off. Some PTS holders still got their fair share of BTSX, DNS, VOTE, NOTE. The current PTS holders lose their value since the social contract changes. Sorry, you lose. The VOTE holders lose whatever value they might have had (we won't ever know since VOTE hasn't started trading yet). Sorry, you lose. DNS may stay independent or all the development effort may go into the BTS chain (I guess it depends on what toast wants to do?). If it's the latter, then again, sorry, you lose. BitShares Music would still be independent for now. If necessary BTS might later acquire them and merge them into the chain. But for now NOTE holders don't necessarily lose.

Please note: The above is just my proposal that is not endorsed by anyone else, and even I don't really even believe in it much. Don't start panic selling anything because you think the above is what is going to happen.
This will never pass but I really like it !!!  :D

199
Muse/SoundDAC / Re: Note pre-sale is live!
« on: October 20, 2014, 12:16:24 am »
blockchain.info/tx/9159d3ddfefd2e96f0740188714b3f962bd00e9b8466bbe258feeedee0adeaf9

IPO is not done yet, they already spent some coins

That's alright. They need to start working on in right away, of course will be nice if Cob will do some update on what's happening ..

200
So why should Bytemaster present a plan as if he's going to do it now?
because:
- BM is lightyears ahead of us
- BM needs to ensure future funding for BTSX
- BM wants to let the community take part in the development of future funding methods

That's why I feel the community screw it this time ..
If you want BM to continue publishing his thoughts you should stop panicking on every word he writes! .. especially those declares as PROPOSAL / OPEN FOR DISCUSSION

It's not the first thread in which inflation is discussed .. still people panic .. not rational IMHO

+1 +1

201
And market cap + volume of bitUSD is up a bit, people using it to hedge within the system :)

Beautiful is in it ? :)

So we have proof again the system is working as it supposed to even when big price fluctuation are happening.

202
General Discussion / Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« on: October 19, 2014, 06:23:12 pm »
I think we also need an explanation as to how all of the negative aspects of "one chain to rule them all" no longer apply?

Fully agree.

203
General Discussion / Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« on: October 19, 2014, 06:10:34 pm »
Funny how people who wants one bitUSD for all chains are opposed to one DAC proposition...
.  So you want Bytemaster to work on one DAC you want one universal bitUSD or whatever bitAsset, But you don't like this proposition....

I'll summarize my understanding of the two options our community have. I may be wrong in my understanding, especially because we don't have much information on the one DAC technical proposition.

1.We have  one DAC and all business model will be developed  on this DAC(Vote and Play and maybe DNS)  let's call this DAC :  Bitshares
This same idea it is developed at a furious pace with lots of funding by a competitor  I'm sure you all heard about them: Ethereum. So if you know how Ethereum works, well it the same idea with Bitshares.

So what would  Bitshares advantages/disadvantages be I will only cover the most debated parts(but not the ags/pts part)  :

- you'll have just one token bts instead of many tokens (vote,dns,play etc). (I may be wrong about that tough)
- you'll have one unique  bitAsset, i.e.  bitUSD will be used by all others businesses, So you go to play a game, you download the PLAY game wallet, bitUSD is integrated already you just use it.
The absolutely amazing part about that is all your bitAssets are issued in only one place. This I can't stress how important is this part. AND this could be technically accomplished only under one Bitshare Dac proposition.
-you'll have one team working for Bitshare and so you'll have Bytemaster full attention dedicated in one place.
- Bitshares will be turing complete.

If(big if here)  this could be done it would be an amazing achievement, and this should be the way to go. By the time Etherum will be finishing development, you'll already have a Turing complete platform with working applications on it. 

The unknowns/disadvantages : 
- Bytemaster always said that one chain to rule them all, it is not scalable. And that why Bitshare chose to take multiple chain DAC option.
Now I'm thinking this is a major change not only technical but also at philosophical approach level. So  I'm thinking  maybe somehow  he found a way to technically solve the scalability issue, has he ?
- How long it will take to be achieved ?
-How it will affect BitshareX, DNS, PLAY ? 

2. The other option we have is to not change nothing of course.

-every new chain will have its own unique token(i.e notes)
-no worry about scalability
- bitAssets will be issued in ALL  DAC's that needs a stable bitAsset, not only in Bitshare X. Please understand, with this approach, this is the only way to do it. Could not be technically done any different. I.e you'll have bitUSDmusic, bitUSDdns bitUSDvote etc. The topic was discussed at length in the Vote tread.

So if I judge by the tread about the Voting DAC, most of you, don't like this approach at all. The problem is, for some reason, we  understood and imagine that the bitUSD will only be issued in Bitsharex and every DAC will used it from there. This could not be done as it is now.
In  my opinion BitshareX is still absolutely the best thing since Bitcoin but of course one chain Bitshares could be even better.

There was a proposition made by arhag : https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8527.msg114390#msg114390 that will solve the multiple bitAssets issue and you still have different blockchains. But of course there are trade-offs.

I think the one chain approach has it own problem but the advantages are far more beneficial than the disadvantages.

204
General Discussion / Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
« on: October 18, 2014, 05:22:40 pm »

What if I launched a ratty arse dac with 5% collateral (vs BTSXs 200%) and issued bitUSD, can that then be 'atomically cross chain traded' and exchanged for BTSX? 


Why are you trading then if you don't trust the other chain ? Please don't confuse trading with transfer.
If you trade bitUSDbtsx for bitUSD5% it means you have an account on the 5% chain to begin with. Don't trust don't trade.

205
Muse/SoundDAC / Re: Note pre-sale is live!
« on: October 18, 2014, 04:38:20 pm »


Yep, if you want extra money start pumping a thread on BTT.  This is a no-brainer.   The sooner the better.  I believe they allow pre-sale ANN's.  That site has a huge following with the largest # of people friendly to your sale.  Then perhaps see if you can get on Arthur B Fall's show which is not the same as the Beyond Bitcoin session you did previously.

Yeah I don't get that part either, why they chose to do so little advertising ?It would cost them close to nothing to advertise and to create buzz 'cause one think is for sure this DAC need loads of money to do it properly.

206
General Discussion / Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
« on: October 18, 2014, 04:16:18 pm »
different DACs will have different business models .. which will make THEIR base token (BTSX, MUSIC, VOTE) worth SOMETHING ..
if it is worth something you can start trading USD for it ON CHAIN ... and as all USD will be worth the SAME .. you can easily exchange them ...

if there was a DAC that would just ISSUE bitUSD on their chain .. you don't need to trade (ACCT) with them .. ACCT is user initiated .. independently of chains/delegates

how will the outside world identify all kinds of BitUSD ?


A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ).....Failed.
B:What's wrong?Why can't you send BitUSD to me?Oh,yours is vote-usd。。。。。you need to use ACCT to turn your BitUSD on vote into BitUSD on BTSX and then transfer to me ?


A:Do you have a account that accepts BitUSD ?
B:Of course.here,XYZ. (BTSX-wallet)
A:(because there is no way to send to bitUSD to a diffrent chain without ACCT by default, this type of transfer, will be ACCT ) using VOTE wallet to send BitUSD to XYZ ... Success

207
General Discussion / Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
« on: October 18, 2014, 03:52:42 pm »
  At the moment bitUSD is backed only by BTSX, if it could be backed by BTSX, NOTE, VOTE etc it would get stronger and stronger and help protect all users from systemic failure (black swan event that causing flash crash in one of the dacs share price). 

I'm not sure if atomic cross-chain trading is the answer as I don't understand on a technical level.

So you are saying that is good to have bitUsd in each chain 6 :)

cross-chain trading is not the answer but it will be possible to do it. In fact you everything will still function without it. It is just a extremely practical nice future.

Here is a Eli5  cross trading explanation by Xeroc : https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10132.msg132196#msg132196

208
General Discussion / Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
« on: October 18, 2014, 03:43:48 pm »
Since the same technology is behind each one of these DAC's it will probably make more sense just to switch on trading for all the other currencies in the DAC that gains the widest adoption.  No need to trade between chains.  Just have the delegates publish the appropriate feeds and away you go. BTSX might be worthless.

This is the problem... There is nothing stopping other DACs from creating other Bitassets. BitsharesVote or any other DAC can create bitGLD, bitSLV, etc.. and at that point BTSX is pretty much useless if other DACs have the same functionality with more features built on top of bitAssets.

Then it will be a clone of BitshareX. It is a Voting dac. of course they could but why they would do it ? It is a different model. I mean sure Walmart could sell car but it is not their business.

209
General Discussion / Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
« on: October 18, 2014, 03:40:02 pm »


The reason to have bitUSD is the same like in Music. If you have an account open and you put 10 dollars that are converted in Notes, the problem is NOTES fluctuates so 1 month later his 10 dollars in his account are not anymore 10 $. So every chain absolutely needs bitUSD(or bitCurrency) if not we go back to original problem : stability.



But bitUSD is already stable, there's no need for more versions of it to be launched in every dac for the sake of stability. The real reason for launching a new bitUSD the funding model.  The vote dac probably needs it's bitUSD to become popular to be able to make its shares become more valuable, just like Bitshares-X and peertracks, rendering them all competitors.  The Vote dac could get hired by the government for an election and BTSX holders wouldn't gain a bean.  bitUSD could take off around the world, but if that bitUSD is issued by peertracks or the vote dac, BTSX holders get nothing.
Think how the bitUSD are issued in BitshareX ? The tokens in Vote DAC let's call them votes. You put 10 $ in value votes how you'll keep the same value one month later we all know that notes will fluctuate like btsx does ? The stability of bitUSD it coming by the way they are issued the whole trading thing. So you need inside chain system to mint bitUSD.
If you want to have the same bitUSD used by all DAC then all DAC needs to be on the same blockchain, etherum anyone ? If not you need bitCurrencys issued in each blockchain.

210
General Discussion / Re: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting 2.0
« on: October 18, 2014, 03:23:20 pm »
I hope I have lots of misunderstandings in my previous post. But unless someone confirms my misunderstandings what I am saying below is essentially a way of promoting bitusd and BTSX by getting it more centralized and effectively create bitusd IOU from the VOTE DAC which is centralized.

If that is the plan there is no surprise why BTSX is plunged.. How would anyone be confident that the centralized entity that owes VOTE DAC will honor bitusd IOUs? If these IOUs are not honored the whole system collapses...

Again, I hope I misunderstood completely VOTE.. I doubt that BM would have a plan like that..

Yes indeed you misunderstood, the bitUSD will be issue on Vote DAC they will be collateraized  with VOTE's. No IOU no centralized. How Vote dac will work, that we don't know. 

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