Honestly, these NoirShares are make no economic sense as a DAC but are in fact a means of duplicating the business model of Invictus.   I think the issue with share allocation is no ones business but your own as you are the creator of this coin.  As the creator you own 100% of the shares and may allocate them as you wish.

The issue comes down to how you plan to give them value.   Instead of learning from Invictus and the history of PTS which absent AGS would have likely failed miserably, you have attempted to repeat the process. 

Here is what you have overlooked, the people who you really gave your shares to were the power companies, cloud computing and mining pools.   The miners still have to pay for the shares they get with time and energy and thus ultimately do not get something for nothing.   These companies take their profit without benefiting your efforts at all, meanwhile your share holders are left holding something with no capital behind it.  A mere receipt of capital consumed as if that entitled them to consume more capital in the future. 

So the question of why should you honor PTS / AGS holders is because we can provide just as much benefit to you as the miners do without consuming our resources mining which means that we can then use the resources that we might have spent on mining actually helping your DAC to succeed.   Instead you must ask miners to first spend time and energy mining AND THEN also help you succeed.   From an economics perspective, which is more efficient and likely to help you grow?

You could have gone the 10/10 and still mined 80% but apparently the marginal utility of honoring the power companies with an extra 16% was perceived as greater than the marginal utility of honoring AGS/PTS holders with 2000% more.    A choice that does not make sense to me. 

Obviously it is too late now, but I am participating in this discussion because it is illustrative for future DAC creators.

It is too late for me to give 10% which still hasn't been really justified. Either way what you say make sense, however if 3% is not enough, then it is unfortunate. While there will be a Fund, i am focusing on defining structures first before the fund, why.. because i think that people need to understand what it is i am planning and how their investment will be applied to produce profit. If i try to "cow-boy" it , it will seem undisciplined  and confidence will wane.

Quote from: barwizi on February 16, 2014, 07:28:01 pm

...

you toast have 1000 PTS, NRS holder has 1000k, he mined to show support, you did not. There is no way i will give you 100 NRS, i had planned to give you 30, why? because with that 30, you would have a small interest in what i am doing, as a result you'd check in once in a while. later when you see the developments and choose to want in, you'll either mine, or buy-in. But if i gave you

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100 NRS, you would already have enough to invest without even expending a single resource. meaning the dividends due to those shares are all free, not a single addition of value from you.

"Free" and "already payed for" are not the same thing.

Honoring the social consensus, in my opinion, is not about getting people to help you write your code as much as it is about building the network effect.  As is obvious looking at the list of failcoins, building network effect is much more difficult than just writing the code.  By honoring the social consensus, you invite this community (as one of the largest and most qualified cryptoequity and DAC communities in existence) to judge your product.  If they think it's worthless, they'll certainly dump it.  If not, even those who don't help code it will use it, and will relay word of its merit to those around them.

thanks your opinion makes sense but my issue is the %

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. The miners do not show support, they just mine and sell - they do not contribute to the ecosystem except for contributing to network security and the value of that drops over time with PoS coin.

On the other hand, If I have more NRS then I am more committed to seeing them increase in value. I didn't even bother claiming any MMC because of how little I got per PTS, but I will be all over developing stuff for BTS because I stand to gain from BTS gaining value. With that in mind I will be passing on this venture because I stand to gain almost nothing from putting in my time and effort.

Right now NRS have no value, but by getting people interested in the idea you could have them help you give NRS value by developing concrete value propositions for shareholders. The miners will not give NRS value, most will just sell as long as it is profitable for them to mine and then stop mining.

I think it will be clearer if you realize that what you are doing is totally equivalent to making something like Protoshares 2.0 and then awarding 10% NRS premine according to PTS 2.0 holdings at the date at which NRS would have naturally had 10%. Doesn't that seem strictly worse? Do you have such high confidence that you will succeed without the larger network that you are willing to trade that advantage for a bigger fraction of coins for your early miners?

you have stressed the idea of bringing in PTS holders for their attention. I get that and i accpeted it already, the issue is the % stake. how do i justify the 10% to those who invest in NRS directly? Its not just about having lots of people holding the shares. but also about investors. What is the point in investing in NRS if you can just invest in PTS and get a piece of both?

Quote from: barwizi on February 16, 2014, 07:05:03 pm

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Dude, I think you are completely misunderstanding the purpose of PTS and what value PTS holders provide.

Please do tell.

The value PTS holders provide is a massive network of knowledgeable early adopters. It makes the difference between 3 people working on your ecosystem and 50 people working. Read this thread to see just how many people with the relevant skills and interests are choosing not to work on this venture because you are not honoring the PTS social contract.

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This is not a good reason, in fact this just lowers confidence in your venture...

I hope you can answer my questions clearly, what is the exact benefit for NRS miner X when i give PTS holder Y free shares? If the issue was give 10% to the DAC development fund, it would be instantaneous, i would know that this is going to help other DACs. But the feeling i am getting here is give 10% share to PTS holders, shares that NRS miners are struggling to mine.

Putting work into something does not automatically give it value. If that were true, I could make "burn&mine coin" which you have to both burn BTC *and* do proof-of-work and they should automatically have value because I put time and money into it!

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Tell me the tangible benefits to this issue and then tell me what assurances NIG has that PTS holders will not repeat the massive dumping that was done on MMC. Too many units existed in the beginning, that resulted in dumping. Bitshares X is funded by PTS which has a steady value and BTC, so you cannot seriously try to use it as an example.

Tangible benefits discussed above. To your second point

* So you expect DAC enthusiasts and early adopters to be more likely to dump than miners? Miners HAVE to dump to make a profit from their mining.
* "dumping" is just price discovery - if people are willing to sell at price X that means those people think it is worth X.
* MMC honored only about 1% which means that there were more mined coins than premined coins after just a few days!

you toast have 1000 PTS, NRS holder has 1000k, he mined to show support, you did not. There is no way i will give you 100 NRS, i had planned to give you 30, why? because with that 30, you would have a small interest in what i am doing, as a result you'd check in once in a while. later when you see the developments and choose to want in, you'll either mine, or buy-in. But if i gave you 100 NRS, you would already have enough to invest without even expending a single resource. meaning the dividends due to those shares are all free, not a single addition of value from you.

Quote from: barwizi on February 16, 2014, 06:37:01 pm

Quote from: bitcool on February 16, 2014, 06:24:29 pm

When a wolfpack work together hunting, each has different roles. Same is true within a crypto ecosystem.

it a wild world out there.

10% is what the pack offers, you should leave it if you don't feel love in the air ....

see, that is the thing, all i get are demands for 10% but no clear reason why. This exercise brings forward many of the questions that where asked as we crafted the Social Consensus Software License, read the bounty thread. I am all for giving PTS holders a stake, but i'd like to hear them justify it.

Dude, I think you are completely misunderstanding the purpose of PTS and what value PTS holders provide.

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here is another example for you

THIS IS WHY PTS HOLDERS DID NOT GET THEIR 1% STAKES IN GENESIS BLOCK:- https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2919.0


I finally figured it out but it was too late, launch time had passed. However if you read my response to Stan and III comes up with a good response, I'll tell you which wallet version to download that will give you your NRS.

This is not a good reason, in fact this just lowers confidence in your venture...

Dude, I think you are completely misunderstanding the purpose of PTS and what value PTS holders provide.

Please do tell.

This is not a good reason, in fact this just lowers confidence in your venture...

You'll find that even bytemaster agreed that this is an issue. however i have figured it out and once i get the time, i will add it to NRS code template and PTS code template so that anyone who wishes to use it will not go through what i did.

I hope you can answer my questions clearly, what is the exact benefit for NRS miner X when i give PTS holder Y free shares? If the issue was give 10% to the DAC development fund, it would be instantaneous, i would know that this is going to help other DACs. But the feeling i am getting here is give 10% share to PTS holders, shares that NRS miners are struggling to mine.

Tell me the tangible benefits to this issue and then tell me what assurances NIG has that PTS holders will not repeat the massive dumping that was done on MMC. Too many units existed in the beginning, that resulted in dumping. Bitshares X is funded by PTS which has a steady value and BTC, so you cannot seriously try to use it as an example.

I m on vacation so excuse my inability to read the whole thread.
Could you give me a quick run down about...
...why should I invest: What makes it a crypto equity (as opposed to a crypto currency) and a crypto currency?
... you meantioned it as a equity and currency fir NIG. What is nice. What service does it provide?
... looking at http://noirbits.org/ it looks like an ordinary altcoin. What more does it offer?
... How can I invest and what are the conditions (how long does the IPO last if there is one?)
..what source code do you use (your own, bitcoin, I3's)?
Thanks

Invest in NRS beacuse it is a decentalized risk/profit enterprise. What make it s crypto-equity is because it seeks to have self valuation beyond current scope of the average crypto. It is a crypto-equity because an invested unit will represent a stake in all and all activities NIG partakes and is a legitimate pfoof of your share of the profits/risks in any and all ventures. An invested unit also represents your existence as a share holder and entitles you to a say in what ventures are pursued, to what extend. The terms of operation and who becomes the leading figure, that includes even firing me for incompetence. in fact if the PTS collective had gotten all those shares in the beginning they would have the power right now to fire me. 

What service does it provide?

The very first venture being pursued is an exchange that allows NRS/NRB holders to trade directly in USD. PTS is meant to be part of this venture, but until we solve our diffrences, their tab will remain greyed out.

noirbits.org

It is an old site that we are seeking to update, the actual dev has been offline a while, we hope he is ok. in the mean time another website is being worked on by another dev. More details over the coming week.

How can I invest and what are the conditions

NIG will work with a 3 tier investment portfolio from which holders and investors are free to choose from. The investment options will be opened after this document :- Noir Investment Group Initiation Document is law, in order to protect Investors.

what source code do you use

PPC source adjusted to use momentum and make it difficult to instamine or overwhelm the network.

Thanks for your questions.

Interesting