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Messages - alt

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151
General Discussion / Re: suggestion on bitCNY rules update after BSIP42
« on: December 06, 2018, 11:48:17 am »
Quote from: bitcrab on December 06, 2018, 11:32:22 am
Quote from: alt on December 06, 2018, 11:11:13 am
you don't need to make things complex, don't need to mix all together especially bsip42.
personally I support 1,3,4, but not 2

I make things complex because the world and the financial logic is complex.

if we can get better peg while at the same time do not introduce obvious more risk, why not?

if the margin call orders can always be eaten quickly, setting MCR=1.4 do not introduce obvious more risk than setting MCR=1.75, however it can bring much more bitCNY supply to support the ecosystem.

no reason to ignore this.

another fact is that BTS smartcoin system is not as same as the common traditional margin call system -  in smartcoin system the currency is based on debt, it's not a good idea to always keep the debt in minimum, debt need to be extended while necessary as it is the debt that support the currency supply.

surely this solution will bring less volatility of BTS price, some traders do not like to see this, but more important, the solution will help the ecosystem to grow as a whole.

we need bitCNY to peg well, only then it will be possible to introduce bitCNY to more application scenarios.
if you mix it all, it's more difficult to get consensus.

to help the ecosystem to grow, we can't relies on high risk market action.
again, to judge the risk, you shouldn't mix two thing togother: one is borrow CNY, the other is use CNY.
in fact there are no risk if you just borrow CNY without spent it.
the real risk depends on how you spend it.
if mainy CNY debt owner spent CNY to buy BTS, it's a high risk action, while if they trade CNY for fiat CNY, it's a low risk action.
we need to encourage more fund to help the ecosystem grow, not manipulation economy.
teaching them get profit from low risk market action, buy bitCNY with fiat CNY at price less then 1.0, sell at price high than 1.0.

152
General Discussion / Re: suggestion on bitCNY rules update after BSIP42
« on: December 06, 2018, 11:11:13 am »
you don't need to make things complex, don't need to mix all together especially bsip42.
personally I support 1,3,4, but not 2

153
General Discussion / Re: make sure margin call price lower than market price at least 2%
« on: December 06, 2018, 11:05:15 am »
Quote from: xeroc on December 06, 2018, 10:44:03 am
Interesting situtation here.

One party is short and tries its best to ensure bitCNY maintains value to grow BitShares as business
The other party is long and tries to profit from margins being called to make a profit.

Fortunately, those with voting power see that as well and pick the way that keeps value for BitShares as a network.
You are really ignorant, free market need no good or bad except fair rule.
your ignorant already make bitUSD black swan.
you need to know debt have to be margin call when price drop, whatever you are a good person or a bad person.
so what's your plan? watch the price drop but still refuse to pay the debt? you are such a good person?

154
General Discussion / Re: make sure margin call price lower than market price at least 2%
« on: December 06, 2018, 03:43:58 am »
Quote from: binggo on December 06, 2018, 03:41:39 am
i don't think it's a good time to low the price than the market price,  the time it is not right.
what's the right time?
what if the price continue decrease?

155
General Discussion / Re: make sure margin call price lower than market price at least 2%
« on: December 06, 2018, 03:26:23 am »
and these witness still didn't provide feed price:
verbaltech2
rnglab
delegate-1.lafona
clockwork
openledger-dc

156
General Discussion / Re: make sure margin call price lower than market price at least 2%
« on: December 06, 2018, 03:08:56 am »
when BTS's price for CNY is 0.28, the witness's feed price is 0.32, so margin call order can be selled at 0.29, 3% higher than normal,
this will push bitCNY to blackswan again,
please unvote these witness who give the unreasonable feed price:

winess.hiblockchain
delegate.freedom
elmato
xeldal
roelandp
fox
witness.yao
witness.still
gdex-witness
crazybit
xn-delegate
abc123
xman


157
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: [Worker Proposal]Data Visualization：Investigation, Design and Implement
« on: December 05, 2018, 08:40:02 pm »
I appreciate the effort from bts.ai team, but I will not support this worker.
In my opinion, the tasks of this work don't have a clear definication, it's more likely to be a long period hobby project, and get fund from witness pay or bounty.
Another suggest personally, I think this work should be delay until we have a good plugin to storage custom blockchain data to a general database service.

158
General Discussion / make sure margin call price lower than market price at least 2%
« on: December 05, 2018, 08:28:33 pm »
it's has been many days since BSIP42 be voted out,
you witness please stop manipulation the price, at least you need to make sure margin call sell price must lower than real market price at least 2%,
then the margin call order can be eatern, or maybe another black swan from BITCNY will comming soon.

159
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« on: December 05, 2018, 12:04:43 am »
another fact I need to talk is that the improved algorithm of margin call(sell part)  make the sell smooth, this can encourage people buy margin call order, reduce the blackswan risk.
the lower MCR given, the low effect from this new alogrithm. it will totally lose effect when MCR reduce to 1.

160
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« on: December 04, 2018, 11:57:32 pm »
Quote from: clockwork on December 04, 2018, 09:58:31 am
Quote from: alt on December 04, 2018, 09:46:40 am
Quote from: bitcrab on December 04, 2018, 09:22:25 am
Quote from: alt on December 04, 2018, 08:55:42 am
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.
All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.
Why I need to take this risk? 
You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.

Those were my thoughts as well which is why I suggested limiting the possible dynamic movement of MCR/MSSR.

If you know that MCR will NEVER go above 2.0 for example, you just keep it over 2.0 and be just as safe.

A brief/rough description is here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27360.msg324958#msg324958
But if people just keep it over 2.0, what's the meaning of reduse MCR to 1.75/1.5? Did reduce MCR really increase the supply?
For a rational trader, they have their own reasonable leverage which must bigger than the highest MCR  which are allowed to use.
only those high risk debt could be affected by MCR, they will borrow as more as possible, then there is a high possibility they will lose everything.
Should we and can we increase the supply by these high risk debts?
In general, I still hold the view that we just need a stable MCR, if we really need to adjustment, an announcemant several days in advance should be given.

161
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« on: December 04, 2018, 09:46:40 am »
Quote from: bitcrab on December 04, 2018, 09:22:25 am
Quote from: alt on December 04, 2018, 08:55:42 am
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.
All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.
Why I need to take this risk? 
You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.

162
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« on: December 04, 2018, 08:55:42 am »
Quote from: bitcrab on December 04, 2018, 07:10:53 am
Quote from: alt on December 03, 2018, 08:14:36 pm
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.
The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.
would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?

I haven't seen any serious central bank has reduce interest rate first and increase rate at the next second, interest rate is an important tool for central bank to push the currency policy.
so why witness can decrease MCR today while increase tomorrow even without an previous anouncement? MCR is even more important than interest rate. it can make margin call happen directely without price change.
If MCR unstable like this, could you regard decrease MCR as a safe signal to borrow more money?
Quote
Quote from: alt on December 03, 2018, 08:14:36 pm
whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.
In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call.
Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?

whether borrowing is safe not only depend on the market, but also on the rule.
one simple example/logic: at the time that bitCNY is in high premium as of now, when MCR is reduced, one can borrow say 100K bitCNY and get 102K CNY, when premium go down to -1%, MCR return to high level, he can buy 103KbitCNY with 102KCNY, pay the 100K debt and get 3K as profit.

does this business make sense? yes, one can make profit with it, and help to balance the ecosystem.

why not encourage this kind of business?
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

163
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« on: December 03, 2018, 08:14:36 pm »
Quote from: bitcrab on December 03, 2018, 02:51:27 pm
Quote from: alt on December 03, 2018, 12:53:39 pm
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.
so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really  increase the supply?

higher feed price/lower MCR means user can borrow more bitCNY with the same collateral.that's how it increase the supply.

witnesses has the logic that feed price depending on the market price and premium, not to feed price at will.
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.
The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.
would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?

whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.
In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call.
Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?

164
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« on: December 03, 2018, 12:53:39 pm »

Quote from: bitcrab on December 03, 2018, 12:47:03 pm
Quote from: alt on December 03, 2018, 12:34:21 pm
you guys really don't realize how critical  this manipulation will result.
A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%,
he will just stop buy until it reach.
And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.
The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.

if this poll get more support than 1.4.119, trader will know that bitCNY will not have a 10% premium, they know what to do.
maybe bitCNY holders will regret to lose chance to buy cheaper BTS, but it benefit the whole ecosystem as BTS need not to reach lower price and traders need not to suffer high premium of bitCNY.
this method is far from perfect, hope you can participate more in the discussion of the alternative solution of BSIP42.
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.
so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really  increase the supply?

165
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« on: December 03, 2018, 12:45:53 pm »
Why do you support if you don't understand how this will work?
are you paly baby game again?

Quote from: xeroc on December 03, 2018, 12:07:27 pm
Even though I am not convinced this approach will work, I support this as a temporary meassure until we can use the MCR more dynamically.

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