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Messages - alphaBar

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301
BitShares PTS / Re: PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 08:21:38 pm »
On the remaining supply question, there are basically 3 positions:

1) Cut the supply at current values.
2) Use remaining supply to pay delegates // developers // for promotion.
3) Use remaining supply to keep virtual mining subsidized.


Option 2 sounds most logical.

Pools are quickly dropping support for PTS so something needs to be done or well end up in BTC world with a pool having >51%.  Miner development has come to a standstill also.

The current supply of PTS is 1,655,659 PTS. What CLains option #2 is proposing is an overnight inflation and giveaway of an additional 344341 coins - over 17% of the resulting 2 million shares. I cannot overemphasize what a disaster this would be in terms of public perception. It would be like a new coin "post-mining" 17% of the supply and giving it to the developers. Can you imagine the backlash? "Bitshares devs steal 17% of coin supply overnight" and "Invictus Central Bank creates and confiscates coins out of thin air". If you've been around for any time at all you remember the scam allegations that were thrown around when AGS was announced. We have failed miserably at anticipating and planning for public perception - something that I have a bit of experience in. I will tell you with 100% certainty that if you do this (option #2 in CLain's comment), any benefits you gain from marketing/promotion would be dwarfed by the damage you cause in public perception. That's my advice - proceed at your own risk.

302
BitShares PTS / Re: PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 07:57:32 pm »
On the remaining supply question, there are basically 3 positions:

1) Cut the supply at current values.
2) Use remaining supply to pay delegates // developers // for promotion.
3) Use remaining supply to keep virtual mining subsidized.

The most difficult option, but most according to original contract is 3.
The easiest and simplest option is 1, simply stopping the inflation.
The best long term for the PTS DPOS chain itself is probably 2.

PS I just came up with the subsidized mining pool idea and was a little overexcited (read: biased) by it.
Showing the miners finally who knows economy, get promotion via that camp, etc.  :D


#1 is the best choice - every person gets the same proportion of shares they currently have. No inflation and no giveaways.

#2 would result in an instantaneous inflation (even worse than mining) devaluing all of our shares. This is an insane amount of coins to just create out of thin air and give away. Funds for marketing and promotion has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Typical marketing and promotion funds are a tiny fraction of the amount we're talking about, an in my opinion should be voluntary. I am of the opinion that PTS needs just the basics - good informational resources (ie, a website/client) and a secure and efficient protocol (DPOS). It is up to the DACs to promote and market their coins since they are designed to be for-profit businesses. PTS was created for a different objective.

#3 defies logic for me. We would be paying for miners to secure the networks of other coins and receiving nothing in return.

303
BitShares PTS / Re: PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 06:05:19 pm »
How about adding another option to the poll:

- Fix difficulty adjustment algorithm immediately using KGW, but start planning for DPOS transition in the future.

The difficulty algorithm can be fixed, but please explain your reasons for delaying the upgrade to DPOS.

304
BitShares PTS / Re: PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 06:02:24 pm »
Mining should continue seamlessly via a subsidized multipool (remaining PTS is given to miners this way).

I'm not seeing the point of keeping a multipool to donate to miners who are no longer performing a service for the network. As shareholders, we are entitled to select the most cost-effective solution for securing our shares. PTS was created with the intent of solving the problem of proof of work, which Dan explicitly described as "overpaying for security". Now that the solution we funded has arrived, are we expected to continue overpaying? And in this case it is worse because we would literally be giving away our money to miners who are busy providing security for competing currencies. Seems totally irrational to me.

305
BitShares PTS / Re: PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 05:59:55 am »
I want to clarify a few things:

1) Invictus will not be responsible for upgrading PTS. If we do not coordinate to get it done, it will not happen (see Dan's response here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6333.msg84980#msg84980)

2) DPOS is production ready. It is already deployed in BTSX which has 3 times the market cap of PTS.

Yes, it is true that the upgrade will take time to complete. This is further reason to begin the upgrade process IMMEDIATELY. We need to set a future block for the upgrade snapshot. Between now and then, there is minimal development work that needs to be done. Here is what the process should look like:

a. Future block is selected for the upgrade snapshot, let's say 1 month in the future.
b. The exchanges will configure a new DPOS-based PTS client. With regard to exchange functionality, this is essentially a clone of BTSX and should require minimal effort.
c. A few hours before the snapshot the exchanges will halt trading of old-PTS.
d. After the snapshot the exchanges will import the snapshot into the genesis block of the new-PTS and resume trading. Old-PTS will no  longer be supported by any exchange.

If the community agrees to migrate to a new DPOS blockchain, there is literally no reason (technical or otherwise) to delay the move. Aside from saying "it is hard", I would love to hear exactly (1) what is hard about it and (2) how waiting would alleviate that difficulty.

306
BitShares PTS / Re: PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 04:11:33 am »
https://github.com/BitShares/BitShares-PTS/releases/tag/v1.0.0

The original protoshares website is down: http://invictus.io/bitshares-pts.php
See the broken link in the sidebar of the subreddit here: http://www.reddit.com/r/protoshare/.
This link (also found in various places) is broken: http://invictus-innovations.com/downloads/

The link you provided (the github repo) is not found anywhere on the Bitshares website - not even on the page that describes Protoshares.

Edit: added broken link

307
BitShares PTS / Re: PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 04:00:51 am »
@toast, I don't disagree with you, but I think there is a real sense of urgency here. Just as an example, can you link me to the PTS website? Probably not since the official website is no longer working (still linked everywhere though!) and there is no link anywhere on the Bitshares website for downloading the PTS client!

Really the most basic component of any crypto is a website and a download link for the client, and we don't even have that anymore. This is the type of stuff that just kills investor confidence and results in the price decline we are witnessing. I am trying to be constructive here, but if this was a business whoever was in charge would be fired. And if there was supposed to be a handoff of responsibilities then somebody seriously dropped the ball.

I did not create this thread to point fingers - I am simply proposing a way forward, and I contend that it should be executed with urgency.

308
BitShares PTS / PTS upgrade poll
« on: August 02, 2014, 03:44:13 am »
Friends, the PTS price has been dropping rapidly for the last few weeks. Dan has indicated that the maintenance and decisions related to PTS are no longer the responsibility of Invictus. The user "testz" has been tasked with maintaining PTS in accordance with the community's consensus. I created this poll with 3 options, but as we all know there are really only two paths forward. The current PTS chain is insecure and inefficient due to a low hashrate, high inflation, and other problems (difficulty adjustment, etc).

We need to decide how and when to proceed with an upgrade. Please vote and comment to indicate your preference as well as your preferred timing of the upgrade. I personally believe that PTS should be upgraded IMMEDIATELY as a standalone DPOS chain and should NOT be a user-issued asset in BTSX and here is why:

BTSX is essentially the first DAC. There are very ambitious features of the BTSX DAC that could fail spectacularly, independent of DPOS (pegged assets, for example). PTS should not be subject to the volatility and risk introduced by these features or future features that may be implemented by BTSX. PTS should be independent, both in price, volatility, and features from the DACs that are born from it. It should be the Switzerland of DACs, agnostic and separate from even the market perceptions of a DAC and its features. This way it ends up representing a more distributed and non-biased segment of investors who are not for or against any particular feature of any particular DAC, but who believe in the underlying protocol as a foundation (DPOS).

With respect to the timing of the upgrade, I believe it should be done urgently and immediately to prevent a further decline in the price and investor confidence in PTS. The upgrade should be seamless and relatively frictionless now that the large exchanges have implemented BTSX (implementation of any DPOS wallet is essentially the same). An advanced announcement of the exact block of the snapshot for the upgrade should be sufficient. If it is agreed, we will need people to reach out to cryptsy, bter and other exchanges to coordinate the timing.

With Invictus shifting their focus away from PTS, it is up to the community to make this happen and to stop the bleeding in PTS. Whatever your opinion, please make it known or nothing will change.

309
General Discussion / Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« on: August 01, 2014, 05:23:33 am »
Pts is maintained by testz.   

What is "testz" (an organization?), who are the members of testz, how do we contact those people, and where can we get additional information on the organization and people?

Anyone here have any idea who "testz" is? It has literally never been mentioned in a single thread in this forum except this one.

310
General Discussion / Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« on: July 30, 2014, 12:34:40 am »
Pts is maintained by testz.   

What is "testz" (an organization?), who are the members of testz, how do we contact those people, and where can we get additional information on the organization and people?

With respect to the question of listing PTS within BTSX vs an independent blockchain, I am wondering whether it makes sense for PTS to be encompassed by what is essentially the first DAC. In other words, there are very ambitious features of the BTSX DAC that could fail spectacularly, independent of DPOS (pegged assets, for example). I am leaning towards PTS not being subject to the volatility introduced by these features. In fact, I would argue that the original "eggs in one basket" concern about the security of DPOS actually applies more clearly to BTSX than DPOS. PTS should be independent, both in price, volatility, and features from the DACs that are born from it. This way it ends up representing a more distributed and non-biased segment of investors who are not for or against any particular feature of any particular DAC, but who believe in the underlying protocol as a foundation (DPOS).

311
General Discussion / Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« on: July 29, 2014, 08:35:46 pm »
They take input from community, but they act themselves.  The phrase implies they are doing something underhanded amongst themselves to benefit themselves.

Wrong. The phrase implies that there is a lack of transparency coupled with an apparent reversal of their (I3's) position. Stan was seemingly on board with "Proposal 3" which I link to above (it was HIS OWN proposal), and so was almost everyone who commented. He said: "This is, in my opinion, not the best we can do as a community,  but this seems to be the closest thing to a consensus we have at this point.  Not unanimous consensus by any means, but perhaps the only way to move forward."

Think about this: the marketing director proposes something which the community discusses at length and agrees to. Then, after a private meeting he goes 180 degrees in the opposite direction with no further feedback or explanation. That is called "backdoor decision making".

Here is a list of issues switching over
Resources to test from POW/momentum -> DPOS = large.
DPOS's wallet isn't even finished yet.
Several major exchanges would have to stop supporting PTS if the change happened this instant.
PTS would be in chaos with 2 forks going forward.  Unlike most forks where the old fork is obviously dead, that won't be the case here.
All the support resources that would be taken away by this.
As I alluded to previously, there is a distinction.  With PTS/POW it was all mined into existence.  All they did was release software.  Now you are asking them to allocate PTS.  Think of this in terms of how laws might be applied in some country somewhere.  Having it mined into existence is a lot better position to be in.

It is a minefield and I3 doesn't have infinite resources.

I really really wish PTS wasn't so screwed up either.  I just don't know why you would want them to change it over right now.  It should probably have a hard fork fixing the difficulty issue sooner than later if nothing else.

Obviously the developers and Stan disagree with you on this new "resource limitation" argument since they were the ones who proposed the change in the first place! But then again, maybe you know better than even the developers about what can and cannot be done. /s

The fact is that it takes very little additional resource FROM I3 to do the fork. The exchanges will need to implement a wallet on their end, but they will have to do that for BTSX anyway. There is minimal overhead for PTS support, or any other DAC for that matter (once they support the first DPOS coin).

312
General Discussion / Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« on: July 29, 2014, 06:01:22 pm »
Lol @ the continued use of  "backdoor decision making" as if someone is doing anything underhanded. 
[...]
Part of the problem is that Stan went and started making their thoughts public, then they went back, changed them and currently not following through.

That is the exact definition of backdoor decision making, not sure what you are laughing about. There was a long and detailed public discussion leading to consensus. Then "some people" decided to reverse course, in private, and with no input or explanation to the community.

313
General Discussion / Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« on: July 29, 2014, 04:52:17 pm »
if we would get to consensus about what we should do with the coins that are not mined yet, it would be more than sure that DPOS would be  implemented on PTS... at least that was what I understood...  so I am surprised as well  with your answer... I am missing something for sure...

We discussed this at length (see the threads I linked to). There is nothing to "do" with the unmined PTS - it doesn't exist. Here is the analogy to what you're asking about:

* My company spends $100 per day on security.
* The company funds development of a cheaper security technique, which reduces the cost of security to $50.
* Shareholders object that we don't know what to "do" with the saved $50, and therefore we should not implement the new technique.

There was no contractual obligation to give away ANY future savings, whether by DPOS or any other future improvement. Diluting the PTS money supply and giving it away would be theft, period.

Edit: this is really not relevant to my post, which was more about the lack of transparency and the backdoor decision making that went on, eventually crashing the price of PTS.

314
General Discussion / Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« on: July 29, 2014, 03:48:40 pm »
There are a million other things to do

So you're saying you don't have the resources to do this? This is the exact opposite sentiment to what I was reading in the multiple discussion threads started by I3 above.

we need a POW difficulty update for PTS in either case

The POW difficulty update is not the only issue. What about the low hash rate and the fact that many of the miners are only mining for altruistic reasons. The current situation is insecure and inefficient, and the matter was discussed in painstaking detail with the community and resolved. The idea that I3 would make a backdoor decision after all this is just astonishing to me.

we don't want to put all our eggs into one basket while DPOS so young.

I'm sorry but this statement is utterly illogical. BTSX currently has 3 times the market cap of Bitshares PTS. Are you claiming that it is I3's strategy to "diversify" across multiple consensus algorithms just in case DPOS fails? Why not tell our DAC developers to do the same - one can create X11, Scrypt, SHA256, Nxt, etc. The fact is that everyone in this ecosystem has knowingly put their eggs into "this one basket" (DPOS). The entire point of buying PTS or AGS is to be solely in this one basket of DPOS.

What makes you so concerned about it?

*backroom decision making OPPOSITE to the community consensus
*scatterbrained and illogical answers when consulted
*The fact that some PTS whales dumped and crashed the price almost immediately after this backroom decision was made.

Is that enough for you?


315
General Discussion / Re: No DPOS upgrade for Bitshares PTS???
« on: July 29, 2014, 05:56:53 am »
We had hundreds of comments and over a dozen forum posts, many by Stan himself discussing this:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4636.0
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4648.0
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4658.msg59210#msg59210

Ultimately, most in the community were in agreement with this proposal:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4684.0

Why was this not adopted? If there was a change of plans, why was the community not consulted?

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