Author Topic: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once  (Read 71636 times)

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Offline Protoman

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mf-tzo

I'm in the exact same boat. Have more PTS than AGS and now it looks like it won't count for anything.

Offline mf-tzo

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Seriously now...We need to have some FINAL rules of what we will do...

I am a long term supporter in here who never got any profit yet by day trading. Instead, since I am a long time supporter I am trying to adjust in order to increase my long term position...

Bought expensive PTS. Turns out I should had AGS.
Kept buying PTS after 28th snapshot until I realised that since I don't care about short term liquidity much I should buy AGS.
Donated to AGS later on, turns out that now AGS will not be awarded in future DACs and will get diluted?
Kept buying BTSX from the $20 mil market cap up to the $70-$80 mil market cap by giving away any bitcoins or altcoins I had left, without claiming yet any of my PTS - AGS snapshot shares.
Now BTSX seems to be again where it shouldn't...At market cap of $45 mil. I don't know if I should sell DNS to buy more cheap BTSX or BTSX will crash so I should just keep my DNS..
Seriously...There is no way I can evaluate my position...I feel I am where I was exactly 1 year ago...
I am a very small fish in here, not a very important shareholder but that doesn't mean that my expectations are not enormous for the next years to come. And now I just don't know what to do...

Why people are dumping BTSX since now the proposal is to unite all DACs under 1 umbrella of Bitshares? What am I missing that others don't..

Please finalise the rules!

Offline clayop

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How are new DACs shares distributed after the consolidation? Based on BTS? Or on the last snapshot?
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Offline joele

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1. Dilution 
an investor's nightmare


Want me to make a list of stocks that have ever issued new shares? You'll probably reconsider this blanket statement when you realize that basically every successful company that has ever existed has issue new shares in situations where shareholders and management has deemed it profitable.

Of course others become profitable also others failed, I'm talking about if there is a news about share dilution investors know that the value of their shares may take a cut.

Offline networker

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According to the current market value of the PTS, giving BTSX to the PTS holder and AGS holders deprived the majority of the interests of investors.  Everyone is very clear, at present the market value of PTS is the lowest in the history, $5000000 corresponds to 2000000 PTS,it means  the price of a PTS is $2.5 , now PTS market is a $3.
Step back and say, even if 3i follow a $5000000 valuation of PTS, it is not reasonable using the same price with the valuation of AGS. AGS holders give much more money than PTS holders.
If doing so, 3I will completely lose credibility, lost everyone's confidence!

Offline johncitizen

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If we are considering a consolidation...

Why are our communities not reaching out to discuss a merger? We have our differences but we are all trying to achieve the same goals. This has been my biggest concern in 2.0. Dilution.

If there was collaboration we would be well over 3b market cap by now and the world would know about it.

Right now theres far too much static and new investors are rushed by an abundance of choice. Personally I dont think all projects will make it. A united front most definitely.





Offline James212

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I really like the idea of a snapshotable token (PTS) that allows any third party developer to create a DAC and leverage the BitShares community. That idea is solid and doesn't need to be done away with. It only needs to be simplified: either combine AGS/PTS into one liquid asset on the BitShares exchange or use BTSX (BTS?) as the snapshotable token itself. Want to use the BitShares toolkit and get gain the support and network effect the entire community offers? Snapshot BTS.
[/b]


 +5% +5%. Agreed.  Third party developers should Snapshot BTS (using a lower percentage rate of course)
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Offline Rune

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1. Dilution 
an investor's nightmare


Want me to make a list of stocks that have ever issued new shares? You'll probably reconsider this blanket statement when you realize that basically every successful company that has ever existed has issued new shares in situations where shareholders and management has deemed it profitable.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 12:03:25 pm by Rune »

Offline joele

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For me it's okay to change rules as long as favorable to investors, but the propose changes some are not.

1. Dilution 
an investor's nightmare

2. End PTS/AGS one last snapshot 10%/10% dilution of BTSX
With the current PTS/AGS benefits I can earn shares to all new DACs.  With the propose changes only one time for AGS and no benefits to PTS holders, it just exchanging PTS to BTSX,  and the offer is ONLY 10% which is the current or even lowest price, I'll just sell my PTS to BTC and buy BTSX so no 6 months holding.

If there is one last snapshot at least compensates the benefits that are going to lose.

3. Focus only in one DAC bitshares
What's the advantage of it? we just created more competitors with the same technology. 
If all BTS holders have investment in NXT, NXT will not be our competitor but will be a partner, same in DAC, we remove the snapshot then new DAC has its own investors that will compete to us.


(Pardon my english)

Offline johncitizen

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Yes consolidate but AGS

Let AGS serve as shares in future snapshots that carry a weighted balance greater than BTS . Develop the AGS as a liquid asset operating on the main chain. This way you still honour our little social contract and benefit all shareholders.

We have increased security, liquidity, value and trust.

AGS operating within the BTS client as an asset gives greater value to the economy.

Right now I know after each PTS snapshot to expect a relative price decline. If my AGS are an asset I have the opportunity to short the market and provide stability.

Lets put our money where our mouth is.




Offline nomoreheroes7

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Either way, this is an INCREDIBLE proposal. One amazing DAC to invest in with the greatest features; no more confusion. BitShares just being BitShares. Dilution being up to the shareholders, and only being implemented if everyone agrees on it and it is likely to BUILD VALUE, as opposed to diluting value. Bytemaster is clearly a smart guy; do you really think he would introduce something as controversial as dilution if he didn't think the potential value it can bring was totally worth it??

I'm struggling to find how anyone can see this proposal as a negative?

I don't think I can  +5% this proposal any harder... The time to buy is NOW. This is the DAC investors are looking for. Excellent, excellent ideas BM.

Think about this: the VOTE secret sauce for network effect.....will now go to BTS. If the secret sauce is as amazing as BM seems to think...coupled with the debit cards, marketing plan, etc...holy hell ...I need to rustle up some more fiat... :D

Offline gamey

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I am not so sure how I should feel about that and I am confused about what I should do right now.

Please clarify what the proposal is so I can re evaluate my position:

1) BTSX and all future DACs (Play, ME etc) will migrate to an new BTS DAC? What does that mean specifically? There will be 1 bitusd for all and will continue have their fixed independent supply n0 of shares (Lotto shares, Me shares, BTSX etc...)? Why do we need 1 bitusd instead of doing ACCT? For simplicity?

2) DNS, Music and VOTE will be independent or will also migrate to BTS new DAC? If these are migrated into the new Bitshares DAC how the existing allocation of shares will be affected? I assume that no change will be made to their current supply, no dilution will be made and I get the same shares % on the DACs from my AGS but please confirm.

3) Do I understand correctly now that the new BTS DAC will award me BTSX based on my AGS and that BTSX supply of 2 bil will increase by 20% i.e to 2.4 bil? But I will not be able to use these BTSX for the next 6 months?

Basically I am very confused now...At first impression I am in favor for 1 DAC to rule them all. It's simple and stronger. Having 1 client for everything would be awesome! If I can have DNS,VOTE,MUSIC, PLAY by opening 1 application it will certainly help mass adoption. 

I just want to make sure that by this proposal my AGS after 28th snapashot wasn't a bad decision. Because pre 28th snapshot and even after the 28th snapshot I was buying and holding for no reason expensive PTS...

P.S: I really don't mind this selling pressure. Keep them selling as you please but don't come back later complaining that BTSX skyrocketed and you couldn't buy cheap BTSX..

Bitshares Play would still live, but ME would be dead. (for now)

There will never be 1 bitUSD for all.  Not feasible.  Even with cross-chain trading 1 bitUSD will not be equivalent.  They're pegged to the dollar, which is not the same as being equivalent.

Music/DNS have been launched and are indepedent.  VOTE might still exist in some form, but will not have large direct support from I3. (?)

The proposal %s you suggest are correct ,but the integrated delay time to withdrawal is still largely up in the air.  The main idea is to keep everyone from dumping into these low liquidity exchanges and tanking the price.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 11:26:10 am by gamey »
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Offline Protoman

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BTER.COM/TRADE/DNS_BTC

VOTE stakes are out there for pre-snapshot PTS holders. Not yet tradeable.

Can you please explain this further. What is this?

I have some PTS, some AGS. Do I have to "retreive" my "VOTEs" like we did in BTSX? Is that already possible?

After I get these "VOTEs" does that mean I can trade them on the Bter link you gave?

Offline jae208

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I dont like the part with " unlimited dilution" :/

Stakeholder approved dilution... I say this because the "hard rules" will force us into "consensus busting problems" in the future. 

I am working on ideas for better control over the voting process for "hard forks"....
Excellent!

This really does show how adaptive bitshares can be! Look at bitcoin unable to adapt. Still mining away, still diluting to pay for "security", etc.
Bitshares is able to change and adapt to the situation at hand. Doing what you mentioned above will greatly help Bitshares maintain a competitive edge.

"...let the strongest live and the weakest die"- Charles Darwin

You just have to be stronger than the weakest in a particular environment in order to survive.
:)
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Offline xeroc

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It seems to me the Chinese community is panicking right now. It needs to be communicated clearly to them as well.
*agreed* ..  I seems they misinterpret the term "proposal" :(