Author Topic: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once  (Read 58902 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eagleeye

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2014, 03:59:57 am »
Bytemaster.  You are bitsharesx in terms of the money.  Money is the root.

In my understanding PTS is used for funding other DACs.  Other DACs may fail, you have not yet.

The PTS in its development is supposed to fund the music, the insurance, the whatever there is a million possible different DACs. 

The original holders took risks.  Bitshares PTS is like a private equity fund, let them keep it.  Just do not be distracted, I understand everyone is pushing and pulling on you.  Do not lose friends or allies with eliminating the PTS stake holders, it allows developers to come in and lobby (I believe though I may be wrong)

If you want to later develop more DACs go for it.  But bitshares/bitsharesx is the best and biggest and ill help you in the way I can.

Money is the root but as they say can be the root of evil.

Bitshares PTS also helps in brand cache, which is #12 out of 400+ coins. http://coinmarketcap.com/. If it disappears it may hurt bitsharesx in value of shares and you may make enemies.

UPDATE I made for Bytemaster/Dan

Right now you few enemies Dan, stay like that, that is the best way.  Watch when you see my vision with bitsharesx, you will see it will be everything in terms of money.  We must not fail where the "Paypal Mafia" ie, paypal.com failed.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:05:10 am by eagleeye »

Offline voldemort628

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2014, 04:00:16 am »
I dont like the part with " unlimited dilution" :/

Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2014, 04:04:15 am »
I dont like the part with " unlimited dilution" :/

Stakeholder approved dilution... I say this because the "hard rules" will force us into "consensus busting problems" in the future. 

I am working on ideas for better control over the voting process for "hard forks"....
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline tonyk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3308
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2014, 04:05:28 am »
OP  +5%

Today is a much better day for me and I hope everybody involved in the project.

Details can be worked out, so more people are happy with the details.

But the general idea is much, much better.

[Edit] It might be pretty obvious that I will be for the proposals in the OP... considering my dissatisfaction with the yesterdays announcement. I made it anyway because it not only addresses concern that I expressed out loud yesterdays, but also some that while not mentioned by me specifically were expressed by other posters and I partially or fully agree with them.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:16:34 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Troglodactyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 960
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2014, 04:06:36 am »
This makes a lot of sense to me.  Hopefully it could be managed without endless squabbling over the allocations, particularly if Follow My Vote is merging in with their additional snapshot allocations.  If the scaling becomes an issue eventually with too much bundling on one chain, it seems plausible that spinoffs could be created at that point.

6 month lock-in seems unnecessary.  Let the weak hands sell to the HODLERS at their earliest convenience.

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2014, 04:06:59 am »
I like it. Three points:

(1) BitShares X is the heart of everything. If it is wildly successful, then Music, DNS, etc. will ride its coattails.

(2) The ecosystem needs to be cleaned up. And as part of this, people just discovering BitShares need a way to get hold of a stake, since these should not be reserved for those of us who spotted the opportunity earlier.

(3) Yet dilution needs to be capped. There can never be more than a certain # of shares. Period. This assurance must be made and kept.

One solution to rule them all is fine with me. Fix #3 above and you'll satisfy most of the people who would object to the big solution.

Offline arhag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
    • My posts on Steem
  • BitShares: arhag
  • GitHub: arhag
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2014, 04:07:12 am »
5) Bring in all AGS holders and given them a stake in BitShares X that cannot be moved for 6 months... the ratio that this stake should be given should be equal to PTS market cap... so $5 million or 10% dilution of BTSX allocated to these individuals.    This is effectively BTSX buying out our competition. 
6) Bring in one last PTS snapshot also valued at $5 million for another 10% dilution of BTSX... 6 months until funds could be spent... buy out this competition and end PTS.

Also, to be clear, you mean fixed at the current $5 million buy out price for AGS and PTS each right? Because that is the what the market currently values all future BitShares DAC ideas even with including your Voting 2.0 teasers. You don't want to promise to buy PTS/AGS at the market price of PTS at the time of the snapshot, because then you can expect the price of PTS to shoot up to ridiculous amounts as people use it as an opportunity to get into BTSX cheap.

Edit: Actually sorry that is not correct, since the Voting teasers would affect the currently non-transferable Vote shares. Also wouldn't we want to include the market price of Notes and DNS in their too if we want to absorb their business models as well. Actually, figuring out what is "fair" to this community is going to be much harder than I thought...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:10:09 am by arhag »

Offline voldemort628

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2014, 04:08:25 am »
I dont like the part with " unlimited dilution" :/

Stakeholder approved dilution... I say this because the "hard rules" will force us into "consensus busting problems" in the future. 

I am working on ideas for better control over the voting process for "hard forks"....
In that case, i hope we can get a DAC in which stakeholders get to vote on the amount of "additional shares issuance" and " share buyback".

The point here is you should assure stakeholders that any decision made to further dilute BTS will "only" benefit the DAC as a whole.

Offline mbaeichapareiko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2014, 04:08:50 am »
Good dialogue,    Good to see the meeting of the minds come together with great ideas.   Dan Larimer is a smart guy and we are trusting that together  we will guide and find  green pastures and still waters.

disclosure (I am invested in btsx)    (I am not invested in PTS or AGS)

Whatever system will be more efficient and keep us decentralized is probably the best means to reach our ends.

On a different note:
I have a question regarding btc and the block chain.
I know Dan is not a big fan of the btcblockchain, however many VC and companies as well as overstock are building a lot of infrastructure in it. And it is currently the largest network supported in the world.  Would it be wrong to integrate  some of bitshares technology to use  the infrastructure as well?   

(disclosure)  I am invested in btc as well.


Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2014, 04:12:17 am »
I really like the idea of a snapshotable token (PTS) that allows any third party developer to create a DAC and leverage the BitShares community. That idea is solid and doesn't need to be done away with. It only needs to be simplified: either combine AGS/PTS into one liquid asset on the BitShares exchange or use BTSX (BTS?) as the snapshotable token itself. Want to use the BitShares toolkit and get gain the support and network effect the entire community offers? Snapshot BTS.

I like this concept, if you want to create a new DAC and do the 10-20% airdrop share honoring thing, why not just take a snapshot of the main company shares bts. It still allows people to invest in future dacs just like PTS does and it simplifies everything and gives more value to bts!!!

The demographics of the 2 groups is going to be different.  Just because someone has a lot of BTSX doesn't mean they're going to be good early adopters for every new DAC created.  With PTS/AGS it means they have a specific interest in the area.  You lose that when you mix it all together in one big stew pot.

A problem with these things is the volatility of it all.  The numbers BM said seem reasonable, but what if they're way skewed at day of execution.  Although I suppose they'll be pegged to each other once this is agreed upon and price will likely only go up.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2014, 04:12:56 am »
5) Bring in all AGS holders and given them a stake in BitShares X that cannot be moved for 6 months... the ratio that this stake should be given should be equal to PTS market cap... so $5 million or 10% dilution of BTSX allocated to these individuals.    This is effectively BTSX buying out our competition. 
6) Bring in one last PTS snapshot also valued at $5 million for another 10% dilution of BTSX... 6 months until funds could be spent... buy out this competition and end PTS.

Also, to be clear, you mean fixed at the current $5 million buy out price for AGS and PTS each right? Because that is the what the market currently values all future BitShares DAC ideas even with including your Voting 2.0 teasers. You don't want to promise to buy PTS/AGS at the market price of PTS at the time of the snapshot, because then you can expect the price of PTS to shoot up to ridiculous amounts as people use it as an opportunity to get into BTSX cheap.

Edit: Actually sorry that is not correct, since the Voting teasers would affect the currently non-transferable Vote shares. Also wouldn't we want to include the market price of Notes and DNS in their too if we want to absorb their business models as well. Actually, figuring out what is "fair" to this community is going to be much harder than I thought...

They wouldn't be getting into BTSX cheap.... given the same money buying PTS or BTSX will result in an equal stake at the end of the day (assuming efficient markets)... any PTS bump would be irrational.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline eagleeye

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2014, 04:13:38 am »
Dan/bytemaster,

Dont put to much on your plate.

Let PTS live and be its on thing, just distance yourself from it.  Someone else must head PTS, someone must be picked who is voted on by the community (this is if you run PTS which im thinking you do).

UPDATE for Bytemaster/Dan

You have $10 million possible in funding.  You have already agreed to the 2 billion BTSX cap.  Either your going to raise the BTSX share cap, or pay out of money you have on you, or?

Watch your burn rate, you need a 5 year burn rate in cash.

UPDATE No.2 for Bytemaster/Dan

If you raise the market cap by 10% people will flee BitsharesX and as ive been saying in private to Joey/Maybe Fuz it will go to 42 - 44 million market cap, at the least.

UPDATE No.3 for Bytemaster/Dan

Joey/Fuz are good strategiets, especially Joey.  Both are ex-military and both know there stuff.  I was trained to be a General at 5 years old but I would consider myself self-trained as a Intelligence Officer,  though I have never been in the military as I went a different course.

UPDATE No.4 for Bytemaster/Dan

Consider me your own personal Central Intelligence Officer, though I do not work for the CIA and I am not American, even though I was conceived in the United States, San Diego, California.  Any CIA Agent would not be able to tell you this so you must understand I do not work for them.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:25:51 am by eagleeye »

Offline Mysto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2014, 04:15:01 am »
I dont like the part with " unlimited dilution" :/

Stakeholder approved dilution... I say this because the "hard rules" will force us into "consensus busting problems" in the future. 

I am working on ideas for better control over the voting process for "hard forks"....
Excellent!

This really does show how adaptive bitshares can be! Look at bitcoin unable to adapt. Still mining away, still diluting to pay for "security", etc.
Bitshares is able to change and adapt to the situation at hand. Doing what you mentioned above will greatly help Bitshares maintain a competitive edge.

"...let the strongest live and the weakest die"- Charles Darwin

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2014, 04:15:24 am »
Dan/bytemaster,

Dont put to much on your plate.

Let PTS live and be its on thing, just distance yourself from it.  Someone else must head PTS, someone must be picked who is voted on by the community (this is if you run PTS which im thinking you do).

Nobody runs PTS. Needs to be cleaned up.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2014, 04:17:20 am »
Dan/bytemaster,

Dont put to much on your plate.

Let PTS live and be its on thing, just distance yourself from it.  Someone else must head PTS, someone must be picked who is voted on by the community (this is if you run PTS which im thinking you do).

I am trying to consolidate down to one plate from many.   Clean up the entire ecosystem... give people one option to get involved.. Buy BitShares.    No more explaining allocations, no more snapshots, etc... just keep it simple.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.