Author Topic: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once  (Read 42678 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mysto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2014, 04:50:41 am »

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2014, 04:53:59 am »
Right now there is market demand for $5 million PTS and $50 million BTSX.... if these were two companies that "merged" the new company would likely have a value greater than the sum of their parts... rarely would the combined value go down.   

If you are referring to changing from "fixed supply" to dilution via delegates.... that is something that BTSX community will have to decide.   If someone wants to start a clone with the original 2B limit... then they can.  Follow the network effect is all I have to say.

Part of why I am not in favor of diluting for PTS/AGS stake is that I think PTS is overvalued at current rate. Maybe I'm naive for selling my PTS assuming there would be no "bail out" for its problems.

The merger metaphor is a bit broken as well. If we want to merge, shouldn't we merge with #1? I'd much prefer to give 1-10% new BTSX to BTC holders at a snapshot date.

No one really cares about PTS's problems largely because it was never meant to be a currency.  So everyone could deal with slow ass confirmation times.  Why would there be a "bail out" ?   There is potentially an incredible uptapped area once you start receiving massive adoption + power of prediction markets.

It isn't about a 'merger metaphor'.  It is about taking care of previous obligations to maintain integrity going forward while being as adaptive as possible to find the optimal approach to maximize our chances of winning.

I want to say God is Great in every religion possible to cover our bases, but I'm drawing a blank real quickly.... and google doesn't help.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline eagleeye

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2014, 05:04:45 am »
Right now there is market demand for $5 million PTS and $50 million BTSX.... if these were two companies that "merged" the new company would likely have a value greater than the sum of their parts... rarely would the combined value go down.   

If you are referring to changing from "fixed supply" to dilution via delegates.... that is something that BTSX community will have to decide.   If someone wants to start a clone with the original 2B limit... then they can.  Follow the network effect is all I have to say.

Part of why I am not in favor of diluting for PTS/AGS stake is that I think PTS is overvalued at current rate. Maybe I'm naive for selling my PTS assuming there would be no "bail out" for its problems.

The merger metaphor is a bit broken as well. If we want to merge, shouldn't we merge with #1? I'd much prefer to give 1-10% new BTSX to BTC holders at a snapshot date.

No one really cares about PTS's problems largely because it was never meant to be a currency.  So everyone could deal with slow ass confirmation times.  Why would there be a "bail out" ?   There is potentially an incredible uptapped area once you start receiving massive adoption + power of prediction markets.

It isn't about a 'merger metaphor'.  It is about taking care of previous obligations to maintain integrity going forward while being as adaptive as possible to find the optimal approach to maximize our chances of winning.

I want to say God is Great in every religion possible to cover our bases, but I'm drawing a blank real quickly.... and google doesn't help.

 +5%

I listen to gamey.

Offline Method-X

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1131
  • VIRAL
    • View Profile
    • Learn to code
  • BitShares: methodx
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2014, 05:05:59 am »
I am trying to consolidate down to one plate from many.   Clean up the entire ecosystem... give people one option to get involved.. Buy BitShares.    No more explaining allocations, no more snapshots, etc... just keep it simple.

+5% This is definitely what I wanted to see for sure. I see you as somewhat of a Steve Jobs type so once you start thinking about how to simplify everything (something Jobs was very good at), dominoes will start falling in the right way.

zerosum

  • Guest
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2014, 05:11:59 am »

and new DNS issued
2) NOTES issued via their presale...

I think the primary issue people are concerned about is where my time and energy will be devoted... to a lesser extent where toast is focused... and to an even lesser extent where notes and vote are focused. 

We cannot fix everyone (sometimes you make a bet and lose)...

For me personally:
- the bolded,
- switching, as a whole, to a  new (and totally unclear ) project as the best great thing since sliced bread - especially keeping in mind that BTSX is the project of the century already;
- switching to a project with a way off (and I mean totally illogical) distribution, as the main one (or one of top 2) projects we focus on.

Were (hopefully as in the past) the top 3 concerns/disagreements I had yesterday. Those 3 were followed by close 4th, even with all the arguments for, with the idea that it is great every DAC to have its own exchange and similarly important bitUSD....

All 4 seemed addressed in the OP.

So, I , in general, strongly agree with this new proposal!

sumantso

  • Guest
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2014, 05:13:32 am »
The biggest problem right now is the 28 Feb snapshot. As we get farther away from the date, it keeps looking worse (and is generating a lot of heartache amongst investors) and creating more pressure on Dan and co.

The logical order of releases would have been Test DPOS -> Real DPOS Coin -> BTS Me -> BTS X. I have a suggestion (will probably be hated by most) which might get around this.

For starters, PTS mining and AGS donation has to be stopped and all these along with the Feb 28th snapshot merged in a single coin of 4m supply (lets call it Tokens) and the social consensus would state that at least 20% of any DAC should honour these Tokens (instead of 10% each for PTS and AGS). Also, the Feb 28 snapshot will NOT be used for BTS X.

So, the distribution will be
1> Some 1.8m for PTS will become 1.8m Tokens
2> Roughly 1.1m AGS will become 1.1m Tokens
3> The remaining 1.1m can be distributed amongst Feb 28 snapshot and/or award Tokens directly to I3 which will be used only as payments/bounties (and can't be sold directly by I3).

The ratios can be adjusted accordingly to try and even out the playing field amongst the various types of investors. In this scheme, I think all the sets are being accommodated.
1> PTS holders will still get the same portion.
2> Ditto for AGS but as an added bonus they are liquid (BM is trying to get some form of BTS XT out quickly so that those AGSers can have some form of liquid asset).
3> PTS and AGSers before Feb 28th, who got in at a higher price due to the promise of BTS X will be partly compensated by getting awarded extra tokens. If you think that is not enough, that snapshot may also be used to award BTS Me, which is expected to be the first DAC with some features.

In doing so, initially BM releases a test version to try out DPOS. If it works well, the conversion into Tokens happen, which will mean it will be tested on a real coin listed on exchanges and having a good market cap. At this point, a mining pool which awards Tokens can also be set up. Remember, Tokens at this point will be the first DPOS coin, and with the rage about PoS these days, having a supposedly superior (we have to see how it works in practice), we should get a lot of buzz.

Then, BTS Me with some functionality (and maybe honouring Feb 28th snapshot) gets released, and after that every DAC honours Tokens directly - no more having families of DACs with with its own ProtoDACs to provide distribution and all. This simplifies matters to a large extent as you know how may of these Tokens you have and so what percentage you will get - no more trying to calculate separately for PTS, AGS or even BTS XT (for future BTS Xs). Of course, future DAC creators may award differently, like 20% for Tokens and, say, 10% for Bitshares Me, but that is his own choice.

Even if you guys think I am not bonkers, still there is room to adjust the numbers/ratios to even it out amongst the various investors. I just like the idea of having a simple, elegant system to award me the DACs (instead of the complicated mess we have now). The biggest benefit, IMO, is that the infamous Feb 28 snapshot monkey is off the back.

*goes back to smoking that weird plant thingy*

Quoting yours truly from back in April. Got laughed at; funny how things turn out, eh?



The February 28th snapshot is cast in concrete.

This concerns me as I've broken concrete with my bare hands. :)

You haven't seen the titanium rebar with 800ksi Nycon-PVA-RF-4000 High Performance Macro Fiber reinforcement we added to the mix:


No, Stan, I haven't; it seems to be of a surprisingly poor quality.

pollux

  • Guest
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2014, 05:35:05 am »
Would it be reasonable to consider using the BTSX stake owned from the PTS owned donated during the AGS auction pre 2/28?

Those funds should be considered to be shares owned by the DAC itself. Those could be sent to the current PTS/AGS holders without causing dilution and without a hardfork to enable share-printing.

Does anybody know the numbers in this case? Would it be anywhere near a fair value for a buyout of PTS and AGS?

Offline liondani

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3734
  • Inch by inch, play by play
    • View Profile
    • My detailed info
  • BitShares: liondani
  • GitHub: liondani
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2014, 05:39:55 am »

Offline BTSdac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: K1
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2014, 05:41:38 am »
great ,I like it
github.com :pureland
BTS2.0 API :ws://139.196.37.179:8091
BTS2.0 API 数据源ws://139.196.37.179:8091

Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2014, 05:44:23 am »
Would it be reasonable to consider using the BTSX stake owned from the PTS owned donated during the AGS auction pre 2/28?

Those funds should be considered to be shares owned by the DAC itself. Those could be sent to the current PTS/AGS holders without causing dilution and without a hardfork to enable share-printing.

Does anybody know the numbers in this case? Would it be anywhere near a fair value for a buyout of PTS and AGS?

So then you just cause extra problems with social consensus and in the end we end up inflating more to cover it ?   

What is the point ?   It is the value donated post February 28th that mainly needs to be addressed. 

There is no way it could be near fair value let alone market value.

edit - Actually I suppose I am acknowledging the fact that I believe this will result in a net gain of aggregate value.  I think with inflation the main problem will be one of trust.  (which others have already stated..)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 05:51:09 am by gamey »
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline Empirical1.1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2014, 05:50:17 am »
Drop all other BitShares brands.... rename BitShares X to just BitShares


YES! Lets do it! 

Right now we have too many moving parts.  Too much confusion for new people.
Too many different projects pulling everyone in all directions.

 +5% +5%

Yes I especially like the idea of bringing BitShares under one banner and bootstrapping one main BitUSD to the world. (Before someone else does.) Let's do it! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fsujXw267XQ









Offline gamey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2014, 05:58:46 am »

Previously we had all those weird Bitshares X,Y,Z's planned out as competitors to Bitshares X.  It was a headache and vague for even those of us who were familiar with the ecosystem.  So that was all dropped.

So we are taking it to the next step and dropping the X and adding inflation of the money supply. 

It will at least insure competitiveness but will also increase distrust.   

This distrust will likely lead to an increased request for transparency...


I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline happybit

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
  • Happy Bit!
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2014, 06:03:51 am »
Hello everyone, I'm a newbie here... though I have been into bitcoin for about 3 years... I am one of those 6-12 hours per day nut jobs, totally addicted to all this!

The past 4-5 days I have researched, discussed and thought about Bitshare alot! -- just when I thought I "got it"  I stumble on this thread.

If I may give you an "outsider's" perspective:

a) if I'm not mistaken, when you talk about "dilution" you are talking about increasing the number of BTSX (rebranded to BTS), if yes, then i have to quote one of your forum sr. members who used the word "DECEITFUL" when describing Ripple for increasing their XRP units, and jumping forward in marketcap because they haven't yet released all the new ripples while the simple unit multiplier distorts the chart
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10095.msg131987#msg131987

b) I finally got around to understanding, and liking, the initial idea and reasons behind PTS and later AGS... I was also liking the idea that these DAC's/coins would continue 'living' to provide an onramp to new DAC share distribution to people in the know.  Kind of forming a symbiotic relationship between those who quickly distribute a bunch of new shares, and the PTS holders generally being an agreeable bunch would hold on to them to give new projects a chance to get going. 

c) while starting to discuss many of my positive findings about Bitshares with friends, one strongly advised me to keep away because of "all the hard forks they have all the time"

d) I started buying BTSX even as the price dropped.  Generally, I felt bad obviously after each purchase as I would see the price drop a little more (in the past 4-5 days)... but then I would get a boost after reading posts here, and especially after listening to the Oct 17 hangout! :)    [I don't feel so positive now, and it is not because of price drops]


there may be a few more things i could list... but I want to keep it short, and PROPOSE some ideas for a. b. c. and d. [i don't expect a response/praise and definitely no attacks, since I understand that I may completely misunderstand everything you are discussing here, so here are my newbie proposals:



A) Please do not "seem" deceitful, keep BTSX as is, do not fork or raise the limit on the total number of BTSX, I do not know what the "market" will do, I for one would wait before investing any more, and would definitely become very skeptical of such major changes in the rules.

B) Keep PTS/AGS running, I don't see why they cause you much headache, they have a life of their own, a clear purpose/mission, you really don't have to do anything with them.  I see a huge MARKETING benefit, and to make sure I know what I am trying to say, I even downloaded the PTS wallet to confirm, it is BEAUTIFUL!  I love the familiar QT interface!  And as DONKEYPONG said " one benefit of having PTS out on its own is that it theoretically reaches more people"... one of those people was ME :)   it didn't reach my pocket, but it really got me thinking, and I may still buy some, especially if you do what I suggested in a more detailed post before:

 https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9548.msg130847#msg130847  but this is not so important.

C) OK, all the "forks" that occur, I still don't understand.   They are probably minor compared to what you are proposing here.  If you change the total BTSX or completely abandon it and start BTS... that would really make me feel bad.  I have told my friends (as I believe you have described Bitshares) BTSX is one DAC that is build on the IDEA of Bitshares, it is not a "property" of Bitshares.  I like that, with this proposal you seem to want to changed that, and make Bitshares be one specific thing.  I liked it as it was before quite a lot!

D) I will deal with my own feelings! :) I WISH YOU GOOD LUCK! Please get some rest, you seem overworked!  :)  I will keep following all your developments, you are obviously one of the "good guys"   +5%

Cheers
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 06:12:44 am by happybit »

Offline codinat

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
    • View Profile
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2014, 06:14:56 am »
 +5% ;)

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3506
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Ander
Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2014, 06:25:38 am »
And of course...the price is tanking even harder now. :P
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads