Author Topic: What does a fair allocation of Bitshares to BTSX/AGS/PTS holders look like?  (Read 12386 times)

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Offline GaltReport

THere is a big question here about the value that PTS holders give up when the whole PTS/AGS system is abandoned.  It is value that is being destroyed by the acquisition.  How do you even put that into the equation ?  You guys can just take a BTSX vote, but that isn't the same as a PTS vote.

I thought the idea was to transfer the remaining value of PTS/AGS into BTS.. not destroy value

Yes, future DACs (the functionality and/or actual separate DACs) will emerge from BTS.  it's not destroyed, only transferred.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 12:28:21 am by GaltReport »

Offline gamey

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THere is a big question here about the value that PTS holders give up when the whole PTS/AGS system is abandoned.  It is value that is being destroyed by the acquisition.  How do you even put that into the equation ?  You guys can just take a BTSX vote, but that isn't the same as a PTS vote.

I thought the idea was to transfer the remaining value of PTS/AGS into BTS.. not destroy value

People with PTS were expecting a % of DACs going forward.  This % will be severely diluted.  If someone snapshots 20% in the future to BTSX, that is far different than 10% to PTS and 10% to AGS. 

Thats the part of the problem, with the exception of I3 employees it seems like it is all "Team BTSX" and I understand why.  Thats why I'm for it in general, but I don't think PTS/AGS should be lowballed. 
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Offline toast

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So what will change after the merger? Will I get any Music, Vote, DNS or XYZ DAC shares, or is my gain more through association like my original impression?

Those will become "apps" (wont' necessarily have an equity) and not a DAC.
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Offline toast

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People with PTS were expecting a % of DACs going forward.  This % will be severely diluted.  If someone snapshots 20% in the future to BTSX, that is far different than 10% to PTS and 10% to AGS. 


What remaining DACs are there? Just an abstract "any future DACs"?
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Offline Empirical1.1

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THere is a big question here about the value that PTS holders give up when the whole PTS/AGS system is abandoned.  It is value that is being destroyed by the acquisition.  How do you even put that into the equation ?  You guys can just take a BTSX vote, but that isn't the same as a PTS vote.

I thought the idea was to transfer the remaining value of PTS/AGS into BTS.. not destroy value

Yes I believe that it will add value but the point is that it is subjective, you can't reach consensus on it as PTS doesn't have DPOS.

I would say BTSX has already lost value by losing many of the 'non-dilutionists' whatever decision you take may lose you some support from a small group of AGS/PTS/BTSX. Personally I would rather we err on the side of favouring BTSX.

Offline fuzzy

So what will change after the merger? Will I get any Music, Vote, DNS or XYZ DAC shares, or is my gain more through association like my original impression?

Those will become "apps" (wont' necessarily have an equity) and not a DAC.

This statement makes me want to sell my DNS like yesterday, can we get a little more clarity?
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Offline gamey

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THere is a big question here about the value that PTS holders give up when the whole PTS/AGS system is abandoned.  It is value that is being destroyed by the acquisition.  How do you even put that into the equation ?  You guys can just take a BTSX vote, but that isn't the same as a PTS vote.

I thought the idea was to transfer the remaining value of PTS/AGS into BTS.. not destroy value

Yes, future DACs (the functionality and/or actual separate DACs) will emerge from BTS.  it's not destroyed, only transferred.

You get more value in the form of BTSX but less from future snapshots which is why people invested in PTS/AGS to begin with.  That whole thing is flushed down to 17% or whatever of what it would have been.  So now PTS gets 17% of 20% instead of 20%.  Thats what PTS loses.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 12:36:28 am by gamey »
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Offline gamey

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People with PTS were expecting a % of DACs going forward.  This % will be severely diluted.  If someone snapshots 20% in the future to BTSX, that is far different than 10% to PTS and 10% to AGS. 


What remaining DACs are there? Just an abstract "any future DACs"?

Yes.  Was this not what Dan sold as his vision for donations... from the beginning? All these low barrier to entry DACs?  Has everyone done a 180 on that view now ?
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Offline GaltReport

THere is a big question here about the value that PTS holders give up when the whole PTS/AGS system is abandoned.  It is value that is being destroyed by the acquisition.  How do you even put that into the equation ?  You guys can just take a BTSX vote, but that isn't the same as a PTS vote.

I thought the idea was to transfer the remaining value of PTS/AGS into BTS.. not destroy value

Yes, future DACs (the functionality and/or actual separate DACs) will emerge from BTS.  it's not destroyed, only transferred.

You get more value in the form of BTSX but less from future snapshots which is why people invested in PTS/AGS to begin with.  That whole thing is flushed down to 17% or whatever of what it would have been.  So now PTS gets 17% of 20% instead of 20%.  Thats what PTS looses.

ah, I see.  There is a bit of a difference but that is very hard to calculate.  It seems very theoretical.  You don't know if the value added (new DAC-like functinality/app) to the new whole (BTS) is worth more than the sum of the separate DACS.  Some of them may not have been successful on their own and would benefit from being part of BTS or possibly the reverse I suppose.


Offline gamey

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Personally I never found the need to get rid of AGS/PTS.  If they're hard to market, then don't market them.  Re-brand it all and make PTS/AGS like products of BItshares and make them an asset.

Keep Bitshares plan as it is otherwise.  Drop the X,  add democratic stake issuance.  I'm still quite happy.
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Offline Empirical1.1

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People with PTS were expecting a % of DACs going forward.  This % will be severely diluted.  If someone snapshots 20% in the future to BTSX, that is far different than 10% to PTS and 10% to AGS. 


What remaining DACs are there? Just an abstract "any future DACs"?

Yes.  Was this not what Dan sold as his vision for donations... from the beginning? All these low barrier to entry DACs?  Has everyone done a 180 on that view now ?

Outside a core group of existing BitShares related talent Hackfisher, Toast, Eddie & Cob and perhaps Vote etc. there was really not much in the upcoming pipeline really. The one third party that did honour it LTS didn't do so well. Plus in a few months there'll be Ethereum competing for attention anyway. Personally I think this is a great deal for PTS and my AGS stake.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 12:46:38 am by Empirical1.1 »

Offline GaltReport

People with PTS were expecting a % of DACs going forward.  This % will be severely diluted.  If someone snapshots 20% in the future to BTSX, that is far different than 10% to PTS and 10% to AGS. 


What remaining DACs are there? Just an abstract "any future DACs"?

Yes.  Was this not what Dan sold as his vision for donations... from the beginning? All these low barrier to entry DACs?  Has everyone done a 180 on that view now ?

Man outside a core group of existing BitShares related talent Hackfisher, Toast, Eddie & Cob and perhaps Vote etc. there was really not much in the upcoming pipeline really. The one third party that did honour it LTS didn't do so well. Plus in a few months there'll be Ethereum competing for attention anyway. Personally I think this is a great deal for PTS and my AGS stake.

I think Bitshares was "The Big Idea" for most of us.

Offline Method-X

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People with PTS were expecting a % of DACs going forward.  This % will be severely diluted.  If someone snapshots 20% in the future to BTSX, that is far different than 10% to PTS and 10% to AGS. 

Having a smaller percentage of a very big pie is better than having a large percentage of a very small pie. It's very likely the separate DACs wouldn't amount to much anyway without viral growth / network effect.

Offline fuzzy

People with PTS were expecting a % of DACs going forward.  This % will be severely diluted.  If someone snapshots 20% in the future to BTSX, that is far different than 10% to PTS and 10% to AGS. 


What remaining DACs are there? Just an abstract "any future DACs"?

Yes.  Was this not what Dan sold as his vision for donations... from the beginning? All these low barrier to entry DACs?  Has everyone done a 180 on that view now ?

Man outside a core group of existing BitShares related talent Hackfisher, Toast, Eddie & Cob and perhaps Vote etc. there was really not much in the upcoming pipeline really. The one third party that did honour it LTS didn't do so well. Plus in a few months there'll be Ethereum competing for attention anyway. Personally I think this is a great deal for PTS and my AGS stake.

I think Bitshares was "The Big Idea" for most of us.

But then again...
One never knows what someone like bm will come up with in the future...

But if they are all "apps" now...instead of DACs, then what happens to the shares?  Will they still exist as tokens?  What will this psychologically do to the price of each once they are looked at like assets on a NxT exchange are looked at?
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Offline arhag

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Personally I never found the need to get rid of AGS/PTS.  If they're hard to market, then don't market them.  Re-brand it all and make PTS/AGS like products of BItshares and make them an asset.

Keep Bitshares plan as it is otherwise.  Drop the X,  add democratic stake issuance.  I'm still quite happy.

The point of this merger is to not divide Dan and team's attention over many different DACs that like it or not will be competing with each other. If I3 is going to focus on one DAC (BTS, formally known as BTSX), then the value of all other DACs will plummet. In fact, we can already see this happening with fall in the price of DNS from the mere possibility of this proposal happening. If the value of all other current and future DACs plummet because of this, then AGS and PTS become worthless. So to be "fair" (whatever that means), the proposal is to at least compensate AGS/PTS holders. The value in having the team focus on a single DAC and driving all the growth to an increase in the value of a token that is diluted to pay for the growth is very large. It is much larger than a few percent adjustment here and there in the favor of BTSX or AGS/PTS.

And for the record: I am okay with bytemaster's original merger strategy. I don't hold PTS. I donated to the AGS campaign both pre-Feb 28 and post-Feb 28. I donated roughly equally amounts (in USD value) pre- and post- Feb 28. And I purchased about 20x more BTSX shortly after genesis compared to the genesis BTSX awarded via AGS.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 01:10:18 am by arhag »