Author Topic: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.  (Read 4727 times)

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Offline Method-X

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 04:13:54 am »
Would the AGS fund still not be needed for marketing? I mean there is no DAC for that is there that would be funded via capital infusion?

A large portion can be used to shore up the pegs and then use that as incentive to draw in business.. like really the only thing businesses would ask initially is.. how do I know I can get my money out when I need it.

It just makes much sense that stakeholders will get to decide on how this is used. It shouldn't be up to any individual to decide how these funds are used, but only stakeholders by electing delegates that dilute them back and then use them exactly the way that stakeholders consider to be optimal.
Delegates don't control the BTC, USD that the AGS funds have provided right so we would need to figure out as a team how to allocate this because the funding of future technologies wont be an issue anymore.

All the money should be spent on buying BTSX, and the BTSX should then be burned. Distributing them equally to shareholders is the fairest way to allocate them. Like I said, they can then vote to allocate them in the future through dilution in exactly the way they consider to be most profitable.

I like this. However, we should give Invictus some time to breath. They're human and anyone who is a part of this community knows they're probably pretty stressed out right now. The most I would expect is for them to acknowledge this plan and set out to do it in a few months. They are human.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 04:16:31 am by MeTHoDx »

Offline Mysto

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 04:16:03 am »
I propose that they are all used to buy up BTSX, and then burned.
Why? I can think of a million ways these funds can be used. Since BTS is going to have DCI I don't see how this will be of any use to the shareholders.

Burning them means distributing them equally to all shareholders. Once funds are needed for something new in the future, they are simply diluted into existance by elected delegates. There is no reason to take the risk of having an external entity holding the funds for us.
I think keeping them as an "emergency fund" would be wiser. The rate of dilution at the beginning might not be fast enough to be very helpful if something drastic were to happen. At the very least they should be used to make bitUSD stronger.

Who gets to decide what constitutes an emergency? We should rather have a way to rapidly implement hard forks to inflate the amount we need in case of an emergency. It will be impossible to know how much or how little is needed for an emergency any way.

That contradicts what you said over here...

The only exceptions should be the funds set aside for the marketing push, and the funds that will be used to make the bitUSD buywall.

First you say "let shareholder decide" then you make 2 exception. It's either you are for shareholders deciding everything in which case it is all burned. Or you let I3 decide what to do with the fund. And at this early stage I would make the argument that letting I3 decide is better at least with AGS funds.

Offline Rune

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2014, 04:17:21 am »
Would the AGS fund still not be needed for marketing? I mean there is no DAC for that is there that would be funded via capital infusion?

A large portion can be used to shore up the pegs and then use that as incentive to draw in business.. like really the only thing businesses would ask initially is.. how do I know I can get my money out when I need it.

It just makes much sense that stakeholders will get to decide on how this is used. It shouldn't be up to any individual to decide how these funds are used, but only stakeholders by electing delegates that dilute them back and then use them exactly the way that stakeholders consider to be optimal.
Delegates don't control the BTC, USD that the AGS funds have provided right so we would need to figure out as a team how to allocate this because the funding of future technologies wont be an issue anymore.

All the money should be spent on buying BTSX, and the BTSX should then be burned. Distributing them equally to shareholders is the fairest way to allocate them. Like I said, they can then vote to allocate them in the future through dilution in exactly the way they consider to be most profitable.

I like this. However, we should give the Invictus some time to breath. They're human and anyone who is a part of this community knows they're probably pretty stressed out right now. The most I would expect right now is for them to acknowledge this plan and set out to do it in a few months. They are human.

Yeah, of course. Only they can judge the amount of effort it will require to go into it, and do it as they see most effective. I just want to make sure it is fully done before the marketing push, because it will make the marketing push so much more effective. If it has to wait, then I think the marketing push should wait as well, since IMO we should be in our "final form" once we push out to the world.

Offline Rune

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2014, 04:18:15 am »
I propose that they are all used to buy up BTSX, and then burned.
Why? I can think of a million ways these funds can be used. Since BTS is going to have DCI I don't see how this will be of any use to the shareholders.

Burning them means distributing them equally to all shareholders. Once funds are needed for something new in the future, they are simply diluted into existance by elected delegates. There is no reason to take the risk of having an external entity holding the funds for us.
I think keeping them as an "emergency fund" would be wiser. The rate of dilution at the beginning might not be fast enough to be very helpful if something drastic were to happen. At the very least they should be used to make bitUSD stronger.

Who gets to decide what constitutes an emergency? We should rather have a way to rapidly implement hard forks to inflate the amount we need in case of an emergency. It will be impossible to know how much or how little is needed for an emergency any way.

That contradicts what you said over here...

The only exceptions should be the funds set aside for the marketing push, and the funds that will be used to make the bitUSD buywall.

First you say "let shareholder decide" then you make 2 exception. It's either you are for shareholders deciding everything in which case it is all burned. Or you let I3 decide what to do with the fund. And at this early stage I would make the argument that letting I3 decide is better at least with AGS funds.

Well the marketing push is the specific singular marketing push that will come alongside the announcement of the on and off ramps for bitUSD. I assume that the AGS fund is in fact much larger since it was meant to last many years. Anything that is not going to be used in the short term should be burned.

Offline CryptoPrometheus

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2014, 04:18:32 am »
I'm in favor of most of the op.....in time.
However, the part about "insiders forum" probably wouldn't work ? Even if you arbitrarily picked the 100 top addresses or even 1000 top addresses, at a certain point whales could strategically split their stake into multiple addresses and end up taking like 25 spots at the bottom of the list.
Not to mention that anything that appears in print on an internet forum is bound to get leaked (even accidentally), quickly and easily.

EDIT: I also don't necessarily agree that burning funds we already have would be wise at this point. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 04:24:41 am by crypto_prometheus_81 »
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Offline Rune

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2014, 04:19:59 am »
I'm in favor of most of the op.....in time.
However, the part about "insiders forum" probably wouldn't work ? Even if you arbitrarily picked the 100 top addresses or even 1000 top addresses, at a certain point whales could strategically split their stake into multiple addresses and end up taking like 25 spots at the bottom of the list.
Not to mention that anything that appears in print on an internet forum is bound to get leaked (even accidentally), quickly and easily.

To get access, you simply have to sign a message with more than 0.1% of the entire stake. There would be no limit on how many can join, but they can only get in if they are able to produce the signed message.

Offline starspirit

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 06:59:30 am »
I think it is also highly desired going forward to have transparent accounting of profit and loss for the DAC, just as a regular company would, but with the advantage here that it could be real-time. After all, the ultimate purpose of the DAC is to be profitable for owners.

Offline voldemort628

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2014, 07:34:00 am »
I propose that they are all used to buy up BTSX, and then burned.
Why? I can think of a million ways these funds can be used. Since BTS is going to have DCI I don't see how this will be of any use to the shareholders.

Burning them means distributing them equally to all shareholders. Once funds are needed for something new in the future, they are simply diluted into existance by elected delegates. There is no reason to take the risk of having an external entity holding the funds for us.

The plan has always been to move all employees to delegates and phase out I3.
If by the time we successfully achieve that and the ags donation fund still hasnt run out, what will be done with the left over money?
Btw when do u see we can achieve that?

Offline matt608

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2014, 09:48:23 am »
 +5% Great thinking here.  I'm not sure about burning the AGS funds, even though I agree in principle that the of burning the other funds and then re-allocating them via dilution would be true to the DAC model, but with 1000 things going on it may be better on this occasion to just allow i3 to keep them, I'm undecided on the matter.  There's a lot of work to be done in the region of delegate showcase + transparency, I don't know that the system is ready to deal with that yet.

As for the private forum, sounds like it could work but there are problems such as - a stakeholder would have to have access to their BTS to access the forum, what if they were on a different computer?  I don't have access to mine all the time and who decides how big the percentage should be to be allowed in, do we need a vote on that?   

The biggest risk I see for the whole BTS project is flash crashes.  From this criticism:
prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/17/dont-walk-away-run/

I was going to propose creating kind of a 'reserve fund' to buy up BTS in the event of say a 50% flashcrash to protect us.  Say BTS price drops 50% in x hours, delegates receive alerts to prompt them to release the fund to place buy orders, stopping the crash and saving everyone.  Maybe the fund could be held in bitcoin with multisig wallet with a few delegates in control.  I mean a single large stake holder could accidentally crash the whole thing!  What if they got drunk and recklessly sold?  I don't want to be depending on no one dumping suddenly.  Having some kind of reserve fund to back up the BTS or at least a method that allows a fund to begin to form.  This region is a part of BTS I'm still haven't fully wrapped my head around but it seems having collateral in some other form would strengthen the system, maybe a basket other cryptos could be used.  Just an idea...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 04:02:31 pm by matt608 »

Offline Mysto

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2014, 10:46:34 am »
I was going to propose creating kind of a 'reserve fund' to buy up BTS in the event of say a 50% flashcrash to protect us.  Say BTS price drops 50% in x hours, delegates receive alerts to prompt them to release the fund to place buy orders, stopping the crash and saving everyone.  Maybe the fund could be held in bitcoin with multisig wallet with a few delegates in control.  I mean a single large stake holder could accidentally crash the whole thing!  What if they got drunk and recklessly sold?  I don't want to be depending on no one dumping suddenly.  Having some kind of reserve fund to back up the BTS or at least a method that allows a fund to begin to form.  This region is a part of BTS I'm still haven't fully wrapped my head around but it seems having collateral in some other form would strengthen the system, maybe a basket other cryptos could be used.  Just an idea...

It has been explained many times before that the crash would have to happen pretty fast. Bitcoin has not experienced a crash that large and that fast yet. Not even when bitcoin was "banned" in china. Not even after the Mt Gox fiasco. So while it is a possibility it is not a large one.

Also remember the high yield one gets for holding a bitassets more than compensates for that risk.

Offline matt608

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2014, 11:00:53 am »
I was going to propose creating kind of a 'reserve fund' to buy up BTS in the event of say a 50% flashcrash to protect us.  Say BTS price drops 50% in x hours, delegates receive alerts to prompt them to release the fund to place buy orders, stopping the crash and saving everyone.  Maybe the fund could be held in bitcoin with multisig wallet with a few delegates in control.  I mean a single large stake holder could accidentally crash the whole thing!  What if they got drunk and recklessly sold?  I don't want to be depending on no one dumping suddenly.  Having some kind of reserve fund to back up the BTS or at least a method that allows a fund to begin to form.  This region is a part of BTS I'm still haven't fully wrapped my head around but it seems having collateral in some other form would strengthen the system, maybe a basket other cryptos could be used.  Just an idea...

It has been explained many times before that the crash would have to happen pretty fast. Bitcoin has not experienced a crash that large and that fast yet. Not even when bitcoin was "banned" in china. Not even after the Mt Gox fiasco. So while it is a possibility it is not a large one.

Also remember the high yield one gets for holding a bitassets more than compensates for that risk.

Are you sure?  On individual exchanges there have been flashcrashes such as on btc-e.  In feb it there was a flash crash from over $700 to below $100.  Just one big dump from one person (probably).  The price immediately recovers in bitcoin, but I'm not sure what happens if the same thing happened on BTS.  Wouldn't that trigger margin calls?  I am unclear about the sequence of events that would follow such a dump.  Can someone explain?

I'm not so worried about news causing a crash, more so to do with someone dumping irrationally.  And in what timeframe does it need to occur for there to be daner?  All within 1 day, 1 hour?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 11:02:26 am by matt608 »

Offline Rune

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 12:48:08 pm »
The easiest and best way to prevent bitassset losses from a flash crash, would be to have a publicly stated bail-out policy. I the event that a bitAsset becomes decollateralized, we will hard fork to increase the share supply in order to make sure there is collateral for everything. This will massively increase bitAsset holder confidence, and will prevent them from beginning to withdraw their bitassets if the price is tanking, thus reducing the likelihood of a decollateralization from happening. We will be incentivized to keep our promise since if we do the bailout according to our stated policy, we will have completely averted the loss of confidence the decollateralization would otherwise have caused, and our reputation as a safe store of value would be unblemished going into the future.

We could also just have an emergency fund set aside, but that is bad for two reasons. First of all we don't know how much will be needed in the event of the emergency, and secondly it is irrational to have an external trusted entity holding the money for us when we can simply hold it ourselves and vote to put it to inflate it into existence when we deem it necessary. Having an external emergency fund, or an external DAC-owned fund of any kind is categorically bad, it just creates a single point of failure that is completely unnecessary.

Offline matt608

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 12:57:47 pm »
Ok, well as long there is a plan for such an event.  If it can be solved by an emergency hard fork then great.  Even so I've not heard much about such a plan being put in place yet.


Offline Rune

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 01:34:22 pm »
Ok, well as long there is a plan for such an event.  If it can be solved by an emergency hard fork then great.  Even so I've not heard much about such a plan being put in place yet.

That's because no one took the initiative yet. Consider this the initiative.



Also, just to reiterate. I'm not arguing that these changes should be implemented ASAP, or before any particular date. It will take time to adjust, and there will undoubtedly be bumps along the way. But it is absolutely CRUCIAL that we have these things fully implemented before we begin the marketing push, and what I am hoping to get is a commitment from I3 of getting this implemented before it begins.

Using any resources on marketing before we implemented our greatest strength and force multiplier, transparency, would be a waste.

Offline stuartcharles

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Re: Now is the perfect time to implement sweeping transparency measures.
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2014, 01:38:10 pm »
Ok, well as long there is a plan for such an event.  If it can be solved by an emergency hard fork then great.  Even so I've not heard much about such a plan being put in place yet.

That's because no one took the initiative yet. Consider this the initiative.



Also, just to reiterate. I'm not arguing that these changes should be implemented ASAP, or before any particular date. It will take time to adjust, and there will undoubtedly be bumps along the way. But it is absolutely CRUCIAL that we have these things fully implemented before we begin the marketing push, and what I am hoping to get is a commitment from I3 of getting this implemented before it begins.

Using any resources on marketing before we implemented our greatest strength and force multiplier, transparency, would be a waste.

 +5%