Author Topic: WeTube DAC - decentralized media provider - the future YouTube  (Read 16966 times)

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Offline betax

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They published some white papers then, I had a few chats with them. I move on due to work commitments but never heard anything from them since. Very nice guys :)
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Offline kenCode

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and this on WeTube/BitCloud:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcloud/comments/2e2cfy/storj_and_the_differences_a_call_for_supporting/
 - I remember chatting with Shawn at Storj a year or so ago about streaming video. It's definitely got interest.
Peertracks and WeTube would be an awesome combination, a powerful force. The media around that would be fantasmagoric.

https://github.com/eris-ltd/2gather

From 2gather: "The view layer for 2gather is an Angular application which is ran in any compatible web browser. The user interface (aka, view layer) makes JS calls back to the Decerver hosted middlewear layer which provides a routing framework, method framework, and connection to both the erisdb and ipfs systems."
 
Angular? - how about React?
Calls back to a server? - sounds centralized.
Streaming video? - not mentioned.
 
edit: I'd also like to point out that they recently decided to move Eris from the UK to America. To quote Black Dynamite:
"Leaving the UK to move to the US is like jumping out of a frying pan of surveillance and jumping into a hell of surveillance and government overreach. Why don't they move into NSA Headquarters or Area 51? BD"
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 01:27:23 pm by kenCode »
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Offline luckybit

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and this on WeTube/BitCloud:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcloud/comments/2e2cfy/storj_and_the_differences_a_call_for_supporting/
 - I remember chatting with Shawn at Storj a year or so ago about streaming video. It's definitely got interest.
 
Peertracks and WeTube would be an awesome combination, a powerful force. The media around that would be fantasmagoric.

https://github.com/eris-ltd/2gather
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Offline kenCode

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Peertracks and WeTube would be an awesome combination, a powerful force. The media around that would be fantasmagoric.
I could definitely see both running on the MUSE chain with different front ends. It would have the advantage to use the same bitAssets which would be very convenient and would provide additional liquidity.

My thoughts exactly.
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Offline Frodo

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Peertracks and WeTube would be an awesome combination, a powerful force. The media around that would be fantasmagoric.

I could definitely see both running on the MUSE chain with different front ends. It would have the advantage to use the same bitAssets which would be very convenient and would provide additional liquidity.

Offline kenCode

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and this on WeTube/BitCloud:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcloud/comments/2e2cfy/storj_and_the_differences_a_call_for_supporting/
 - I remember chatting with Shawn at Storj a year or so ago about streaming video. It's definitely got interest.
 
Peertracks and WeTube would be an awesome combination, a powerful force. The media around that would be fantasmagoric.
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Tuck Fheman

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Has there been any actual collaboration so far?

Qora needs their own thread on the btstalk "Partners" area IMO. I want to keep the excitement of their BitShares collaboration going too.

We've collaborated on a Beyond Bitcoin Hangout so far. ;)

I don't think we'll be seeing any ACCT in the future between the two, especially considering Dan's most recent comments on the matter.

But what we may see is BTS eventually adopt some form of decentralized social media solution perhaps along the lines of what Qora is doing and perhaps with the assistance of some of the people currently working with Qora.

However, that's just me speculating. I have no inside info and if I did I wouldn't say. ;)


Offline tbone

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Has there been any actual collaboration so far?

Qora needs their own thread on the btstalk "Partners" area IMO. I want to keep the excitement of their BitShares collaboration going too.

Tuck Fheman

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Qora needs their own thread on the btstalk "Partners" area IMO. I want to keep the excitement of their BitShares collaboration going too.

 +5%

I think we'll be hearing more Qora talk on Beyond Bitcoin in the near future.  The next version is "looking very choice".

Offline kenCode

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I'd love to see a decentralized youtube as a Partner with BitShares. A major media opp.
 
Found WeTube & BitShares mentioned together here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1uil15/could_a_decentralized_youtube_ever_work_with/ceil3co
 
Aether is another one (http://getaether.net). They're a decentralized forum. With all this reddit censorship going on, eyes will be looking for dapp opps in this space.
 
Qora needs their own thread on the btstalk "Partners" area IMO. I want to keep the excitement of their BitShares collaboration going too.
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

@liberman
Any updates available on the WeTube DAC or bitCloud?

Holy cow.. dug way way back to find this one!
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Offline kenCode

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@liberman
Any updates available on the WeTube DAC or bitCloud?
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Offline liberman

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Hello, this idea is in absolutely good progress.
I am right now writing the  protocol with the help of some developers and thinkers, specially Kyle Torpey.

We are separating the protocol from the interface itself. We are calling the protocol Bitcloud, and the first application based on it Wetube.

PLEASE JOIN US

You can see how we are writing the protocol here:

https://github.com/wetube/bitcloud/blob/master/bitcloud.org

Please join us on #wetube (freenode) to discuss everything.

Offline jae208

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So how is progress going on with wetube? I think this is a great idea!
Is there a status update thread on this?
http://bitsharestutorials.com A work in progress
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Offline fran2k

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Offline liberman

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I want to update the thread to say that I'm writing the spec these days.
Some things have changed, but most of the original idea will be there.
Most of my efforts are for the part of the nodes. I want them to be the ones making this system work.
I have analyzed bandwidth requirements and got to the conclusion that the system cannot go smoothly by just users sharing their home internet connection, so private servers with large bandwidth capacity are required.
Nodes will also be the ones making most of the money, so maintaining a node will be like an investment.
Therefore, sharing bandwidth will be like mining in today systems, but this time for doing something useful, not just burn CPUs.

Many programmers have contacted me asking what they can do. Please wait for the first specification draft to start programming something, but you can share your ideas with us by mail or in #wetube (freenode). Also, my skype is "javier.liberman".

« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 05:10:26 pm by liberman »

Offline liberman

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You cannot verify bandwidth sharing in a global money supply.   You need long lived nodes with reputation and credit.   Each node must issue its own money and then trade these credits on automated markets. 

There is no block chain in this model.  You really need a ripple like model for the nodes but I suspect it will be too inefficient.   

I spent months designing tornet to find a workable economic model and you would do well to understand my design as a starting point for improvement.

I try to understand it fully, but I have some doubts.

Supposing that connections are never made directly from peer to peer, but they always pass through a chain of nodes like in Tor, each node can verify the amount of bandwidth that it delegates.
Propagation can happen in chunks (for example, 100K each), and every chunk comes signed from both the originator and the reciever, and all the nodes it traverses. For every block traversed, there is an amount of coins generated.
Now, I know what you are thinking: any malicious attacker can create a short circuit and become itself the originator, the nodes, and the receiver, creating money from nothing. I suppose this attack can be called "self-fake-serving". That is why I've been thinking about a solution that I have not yet written because there are some issues, but bassically it can be described this way:

Not a single node can choose the nodes it connects to, the receivers or the originators. Receivers and originators cannot, too.
A list of nodes and their IPs will be in a signed pool in the cloud, and downloaded by every single server every 10min. This pool must be signed by every server that wants to enter into the system, so for every IP listed there, there is a signature corresponding to the public key of the node using that IP. We can make this pool to be efficent to download updates, just by sending diff requests every time a new node is connected.
Now, when a reciever wants something, it is given a random node it must connect to. How to make it really random? We use a mathematical formula (I haven't thought about it yet) that relates his public address to the obtained hash of the full pool. Users trying to connect to a node which is not assigned are banned from the pool.
Nodes that doesn't transmit anything or transmit something which is not requested are banned from the pool and they can't earn nothing.
Recievers and nodes check that the node before it in the chain is acting correctly. If not, it marks that node "banned" in the pool, and then other nodes comes and verify that is true by checking what was solicited and what was served by the conflicting node. If it is true that the node is trying to scam, then the node is marked banned permanently (or for some period of time). If it is false that the node is not trying to scam, then the denouncing node is marked as banned.

Well, and how this relates to a block chain? I have yet to think it, but I'm thinking that every update to the pool could represent a new block. We can make the blockchain space-efficent by only storing changes from previus blocks. We could also protect IPs in some way so to make this fully anonymous, and I have to think about this too.

I'm wondering how your Tornet and  Proof-of-Stake ideas could be related to this.


Offline bytemaster

You cannot verify bandwidth sharing in a global money supply.   You need long lived nodes with reputation and credit.   Each node must issue its own money and then trade these credits on automated markets. 

There is no block chain in this model.  You really need a ripple like model for the nodes but I suspect it will be too inefficient.   

I spent months designing tornet to find a workable economic model and you would do well to understand my design as a starting point for improvement.


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Offline liberman

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Why mine if we can use Proof of Stake?

Can we apply this to a non-mining blockchain like wecoins, where money supply comes from bandwidth sharing and other services?

Offline bytemaster

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Offline phoenix

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I think there should be relatively equal rewards for mining and writing papers, as long as the mining is actually helping the network. If the mining was just POW, without accounting for network contributions, then I would say that rewards should just be for writing papers.
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Offline liberman

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Wonderful!

We not only need programmers, also managers, legal advisers, thinkers, writers, etc.

I' still very concerned about how your going to raise capital but anyways, not really a major concern for myself, setup and prove me wrong.

I'm thinking several ways. The original idea is to give capital (MediaCoins) to programmers. But still there will be other people who will not program/design but help the project itself. How to pay them? One way is by ProtoMediaShares, you can get in charge of that part if you want.
Another way, instead of mining, is to reserve a position between programmers, to those whose work cannot be measured by the amount of code/art they do, but more kind of management, studying, thinking, promoting. If we agree with this, I can create a new github repository only for papers, and the people contributing in that repository would receive their shares too. Legal advisers can publish their legal comments there. Managers/marketers  will publish their ideas there, too. There could be even spokesmans, paid in function of their videos/conferences. I will be moderating the repository to avoid abuses.
We can measure shares in proportion of the number of lines written, and we can also vote to give more shares to one specific area if we think it is more important.

Once the project is launched, new capital (money supply) is earned by sharing bandwidth and moderation, and all of this would be archived. This will be the equivalent of mining, but with real intrinsic value. The system can promote itself, because the first week everybody will enter the system to start sharing content in order to win cheap coins. I think this is just great! We can design the system such as the first week/month the difficulty of earning coins is low, and after that it returns to normal. Finally we can "mine" doing something useful.

If we are not able to agree with that, we can still return to your original idea of ProtoMediaShares. Proportion would be 10% to programmers and 2.5% to protoshares. We can negotiate that proportion.

So, the question now is for those with no programming skills: do you prefer to mine, or do you prefer direct payment for the papers you write?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 01:33:58 pm by liberman »

Offline fav

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wow, certainly a great idea. following this thread :D

Offline quickbit

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Interesting! Hope this can implemented. I will support.


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Offline soniq

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Offline devilfish

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I' still very concerned about how your going to raise capital but anyways, not really a major concern for myself, setup and prove me wrong.
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Offline liberman

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I'm in contact with some GNUnet programmers, and there is a posibility that this project could be followed by the GNU organization itself.

We need to move forward. Next days will be critical. Please contact us at #wetube on freenode.

Offline liberman

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Forks will happen. It happened to Bitcoin, it will happen to Bitshares, it will happen to WeTube.

No way that serius programmers will get involved in anything just by offering mining. Bytemaster knows this very well.

Anyway, WeTube will have the equivalent of mining, but money will come from sharing bandwidth. Difficulty will be very low the first week, so for sharing many medias just the first day the alpha comes out, you the investor can earn a lot of coins. This will motivate people to enter very fast in the network and spread the word.
I predict the first week WeTube will be released, we will be in the news and in thousands of blogs very quickly. It will be really explosive.

I can open a private github account only for the protocol, and release the working source just the day before. Only protocol implementors will have access to this source code.

Offline devilfish

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Sure DAC's require constant maintenance, but in theory you don't require a constant team to keep maintaining it because the source code is freely available so if someone finds a way to improve the source code they can do so then either merge it with the current project, no doubt buying shares before they announce the fix/upgrade expecting that it will add value to the DAC. The fix is then either accepted or rejected by the community of shareholders who put forward the arguments for and against it which basically amount to "Will this make more or less money". If it is thought it will make more the code merger is accepted and in theory the price goes up and that coder makes money if the price rises and they sell or they hold onto the shares and wait for dividend payments. If the community rejects the code merge the coder can at that point decide to create a new DAC which honours the original DAC (if they didn't do this then they probably won't get any support unless their idea is far greater then the original DAC's) in a method of their choosing and implement the fix. If the fix is a good idea, people will leave the original DAC see'ing that the new DAC is capable of making much more money, otherwise if the community still see it doesn't work then they will reject the new DAC and it will disappear and the coder will have made a loss.

How do you know in advance how much worker each programmer will be doing that makes you think you can pay them in shares initially and they'll continue to do the same amount of work? How exactly will the pie be broken up between developers without there being a whole bunch of fighting about who did what?

As far as I can tell the best way to approach paying coders for the initial groundwork code of a DAC is via the float of an "idea currency" ala ProtoShares for Invictus, the idea either gains value (like PTS) or dies in the water. If it people speculate that it's a good idea you now have a significant community group and capital assuming you either mined initially or purchased shares at a low price. You and other like mined individuals need to identify ways to actually implement the goals of the DAC, breaking up the concepts as much as possible for the release of the ultimate service providing DAC. Then you can, using the capital at hand from "idea currency" set bounties (paid in anything but shares for this particular DAC) for each of these broken down goals, with each being broken down such that they could not be used on their own to operate the DAC and these coders are left in the dark as much as possible as to what the overall project they are working on is so they cannot be held liable for the product they've produced.

If you centralise the development team you also have a group of people dictating where exactly the project is going so what's to say one day they reject a really good idea because they don't like the individual that proposed it?

I could go on and on...
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Offline bytemaster

Even still you will have a core group of people with financial connections and intimate knowledge of the the operations of the DAC. With a media DAC that can publish anything, it won't take long for those people to be contacted by people who's copyright will no doubt be infringed by this DAC demanding some answers. Therefore what will be the motivation to take stock in such a project that will quite probably result in everyone who worked in the project losing their stocks and another community just cloning the code and redistributing the ownership in a fashion that won't result in the aforementioned scenario?

Momentum, first mover advantage, network effect.   Assuming the developers do not award themselves an objectionable percentage people will be loyal to the core developers.  DACs require constant maintenance.
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Offline devilfish

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Even still you will have a core group of people with financial connections and intimate knowledge of the the operations of the DAC. With a media DAC that can publish anything, it won't take long for those people to be contacted by people who's copyright will no doubt be infringed by this DAC demanding some answers. Therefore what will be the motivation to take stock in such a project that will quite probably result in everyone who worked in the project losing their stocks and another community just cloning the code and redistributing the ownership in a fashion that won't result in the aforementioned scenario?
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Offline bytemaster

Development funds would hire marketers not just coders.  If enough funds were raised it would be hard for competing marketers to achieve the same result


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Offline devilfish

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I've read your additions to your white paper. I strongly disagree with the proposals relating to paying all shares to the coders, you even say that it's not centralised so why do you think that you can call your model decentralised?

The fact is a project needs more then just software developers to be successful. Some savvy marketing guys with deep pockets will just sit back, wait for the code to be made then clone it on release and market it using their skills. Even if you have the coding world on your side that this is an injustice (which it wouldn't because you stared with a centralised method) the fact is they probably won't be capable of winning over the general public because coders aren't in that business (especially the kind that get projects done).

Prove me wrong though and don't take that the wrong way because I want to see this idea work.
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Offline liberman

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Interesting, bytemaster.
But I think the problem with your original idea is about the people donating to the network.
This is different, as we are a truly substitute for Youtube. Free for users, but paid by advertisers.

I suggest you use micropayments. Then you don't need advertisers.

Please, elaborate.

Micropayments can be set so that every time we visit the site it extracts 0.0001 Bitcoin per minute. So you can do stuff like charge by the amount of time viewing a video. You can also do pay per view and charge per viewing a fee. I think not everyone wants ads and people need a reason to spend their various coins.

Why have cryptocurrencies if we aren't going to use them for stuff like this? It's divisible so why not exploit the fact that you can do stuff that YouTube cannot do? If you just play into YouTube's strengths you will lose. You will never match the advertisers of YouTube but with micropayments you don't need to. It's like the difference between Cable TV and regular TV.

Thank you for your ideas.
We are thinking ways to make the system free for general use while allowing servers, artists and moderators to win money. More info will come the next days.

Offline luckybit

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Interesting, bytemaster.
But I think the problem with your original idea is about the people donating to the network.
This is different, as we are a truly substitute for Youtube. Free for users, but paid by advertisers.

I suggest you use micropayments. Then you don't need advertisers.

Please, elaborate.

Micropayments can be set so that every time we visit the site it extracts 0.0001 Bitcoin per minute. So you can do stuff like charge by the amount of time viewing a video. You can also do pay per view and charge per viewing a fee. I think not everyone wants ads and people need a reason to spend their various coins.

Why have cryptocurrencies if we aren't going to use them for stuff like this? It's divisible so why not exploit the fact that you can do stuff that YouTube cannot do? If you just play into YouTube's strengths you will lose. You will never match the advertisers of YouTube but with micropayments you don't need to. It's like the difference between Cable TV and regular TV.
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Offline liberman

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The rise of privacy

Privacy is a big problem today. Corporations and goverments keep track of everything yo do, and use the information they collect from you to make a profile of your personality that they then use to impose certain things and make decisions.

People tend to think that the information they collect from them is just for advertising purposes, but that is only a tiny part. And I will put some examples:

The main target are libertarians, anarcho-socialist, anti-capitalists, anarcho-captitalists, comunists, people aware of their rights as citicens, artists, media distributors (incorrectly named “hackers”), protestors, open source activicts, many minorities, people protesting against goverments regulations, people protesting against monopolies, scientifics out of the status-quo, and more. In a sense: people who embrace freedom, wether they are from the left or the right.

Wars are used as an excuse to impose vigilance and coercion against the people. Actual corporations want to earn money, yes, but the point is that, meanwhile, they are a tool to impose censorship and control. Any good company who is worried about their clients privacy is ussually forced to give all the information they gather to goverment agencies. And this is happening in most countries, some more than others.

But we belive in freedom and self-responsability. And privacy is vital at this point, because we must protect ourselves against censorship. It doesn't matter what you have to say, what are your ideas, if you can't spare them.

Important is also your economic privacy. Remember that most media providers requires you to give your credit card number in order to start downloading media, even if it is free media. iTunes and Google Play are examples. When you give your credit card to them, not only are you de-facto telling them who you are exactly, but you are telling banks and therefore goverment agencies what are you doing with your money. This is a very strong form of coercion to artits too, because that implies that only artits aproved by them can reach a sufficent audence to make a life.

So we embrace Bitcoin and derivatives for the economic parts of WeTube, because it allows anonymous and non-coercible transactions.

More importantly, we base our identity parts in Keyhotee, that has an impresive list of privacy and security features, including the posibility to register any nick in a completely distributed network, not owned by anybody, and therefore out of the information collectors. This is the only way today to obtain real private anonymous IDs.

Of course, we also protect your IP. Even if you need an internet connection to connect to WeTube, in the very moment you enter into it, your privacy is guarantied because all data travels encripted and completely distributed. So the only thing that a man in the middle can see is that you are connected to WeTube, but cannot know what are you truly doing.

But what about criminals? Couldn't they have inpunity in this system?

They can't have inpunity because this is a moderated system. Criminal activites sould be inmediatly rejected by most moderators. Illegalities could also be cut-off.

Yes, they could still broadcast media to the unmoderated area, but that area will be mostly ignored by normal people.

We believe that if you try to censor terrorists or psicopaths, the only thing you will obtain is a stronger response from those groups, and motivate them to use actual physical forces. Most moderators and users do understand that the best they can do is ignore criminals, or even better: create content that severely expose their badness and identities by investigations.

Also, we should consider that most people are actually good people and don't like violence. Most of the biggest threads to humanity did precisally came from wars and false-flag actions, of course motivated by the dark sides of goverments and bankers.

Offline liberman

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Interesting, bytemaster.
But I think the problem with your original idea is about the people donating to the network.
This is different, as we are a truly substitute for Youtube. Free for users, but paid by advertisers.

I suggest you use micropayments. Then you don't need advertisers.

Please, elaborate.

Offline luckybit

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Interesting, bytemaster.
But I think the problem with your original idea is about the people donating to the network.
This is different, as we are a truly substitute for Youtube. Free for users, but paid by advertisers.

I suggest you use micropayments. Then you don't need advertisers.
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Offline bytemaster

I hope you can make this happen :)

I hope too!
I continue to write the paper, sorry about my non-native english!
Would you help us?

The first thing we need is to design a demo interface, but then we must implement all the protocols, including Keyhotee, in JS.
I am stretched a little thin for the time being.  I will provide economic insight based upon what I have learned in DAC design and Tornet.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
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Offline liberman

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I hope you can make this happen :)

I hope too!
I continue to write the paper, sorry about my non-native english!
Would you help us?

The first thing we need is to design a demo interface, but then we must implement all the protocols, including Keyhotee, in JS.

Offline bytemaster

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Offline liberman

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The three pillars of WeTube: freedom, privacy, voluntary moderation

Imagine a web page where you can upload any video, music, image or document, and it will be inmediatly avaiable to everybody without restrictions, without anybody knowing who you are (if you want), without anybody censoring you.

Imagine a web page where you can access any media you want without anybody having to know what are you doing, not being imposed to authenticate with your real ID, IP, or associated credit card number, not being observed by the big brother, and at the same time the content you access is of high quality and helpful for your evolution and relationships.

Imagine you are a publisher, a periodist or an editor, and there is a place where you can safetly publish your discoverings, but without any censorship at all, while at the same time you are able to get rid of the junk and noise around you, providing only good quality researches and associations with you audence.

Imagine you are an artist that lives for and from your art, and you have a free place where you can express your ideas and concepts, participate in comunity with your followers and other artists, and even earn the money you deserve for your hard work, without imposing others and not having to pay big comissions to any private editor or distributor, nor having to support their greed and censorships.

Imagine a media where you can get rid of the junk so easy as doing a click. Imagine being your own moderator, where you can select what is good and bad for yourself and your family, without having to surrender yourself to what other has decided, specially when that other is trying to impose you a vision you don't agree with.

Imagine a place where you can choose multiple moderators, including yourself or no moderators at all, being them people and organizations you really trust, and the posibility to add or remove them without restriction. Imagine how good a free moderator could be if their motivation is to serve only what people want while removing what they don't, not what a big guy on top of him/her decides. Moderators with big impositions and bad appliance of filters would be rapidly abandoned by the comunity, and their reputation disminished.

Imagine that the media you see is temporaly stored on your computer so you can see it multiple times without having to reload it. Imagine that the content you like most is permanently stored on your computer so if you lost your internet connection you can still access it. Imagine a safeguard of all the important media you have in case of media server shutdowns, human crisis, war, or goverment censorship. You don't have that in today's standard media providers, as they prohibit you to store the content. Even companies like Google prohibits the publishing of browsers add-ons that use a trick to record the media, making YouTube videos very difficult to get stored locally with the Chrome browser.

Imagine that you are a legit enterpreneur and have a useful and good business that you need to promote. The audence of this new media provider will be large and a real oportunity for you to come in. Every single area of business you can think of is covered, and you'll be able to perfectly select the categories you want to be in. Even better is the fact that advertisers can select to what moderation they want to be attached, so you can perfectly choose moderators who provide legal only content in your country.

Imagine that you are a programmer and/or a system administrator and you want your deserved reward for your hard work while being useful to humanity. You can host a server and earn bitcoins proportional to the amount of bandwith, space and maintence you serve. At the same time, the protocol is specially designed to protect you against the arbitrarian laws, as you can select which moderators you're going to serve, and therefore, the content your server helps the user to download. But not even that, most of the contents are actually not stored in your servers, but interchanged between users alone, making this protocol a really distributed anonymous one. We even optionally protect your IP with a technology similar to hidden Tor services if you want to serve delicate searches, at only the cost of some added latency. You are a crucial part of this revolution.

Is this another moderated system?

Yes and no. It is moderated in the sense that oneself can be the moderator, or relay the task to a trusted moderator or a group of moderators. The magic of this system is that it allows full freedom, while maintaing the convenience of good-quality results and potential legality, as explained bellow.

First things first. In WeTube, there is a root moderator called “unmoderator” which acepts everything and cannot be violated in any form. This moderator resides in no place and all its content is purely in the cloud of users. Not a single part of this moderator content and searches resides in any server, except if the server administrator decides so, which s/he must explicitly configure to. This moderator fullfils freedom and zero discrimination, which unfortunately includes low quality results and potentially some illegal content in some countries.

You can compare this unmoderator with raw eMule, Tor hidden services, Gnutella, Kademlia, and other p2p protocols offering searches and/or magnet links. One who has used those programs knows that the results are more often than not of very low quality, when not ilegit or honeypots. But yet, people use those programs because of censorships and copyright issues in their countries, so they accept the junk in favor to obtain some valuable content.

That drives us to a problem: because no moderation is taken place, both the quality and legality of the content is disminished, and most people don't use them because of that.

So, what to do? We dont want to be illegal, and at the same time we want full access to quality content which is censored in central mainstream medias. We also want privacy, one thing wich we don't have today unless we use very complicated technology.

The point here is: you can't have legallity and good quality content in an unmoderated system. After a while, the system will be full of junk and legally dungerous staff.

So we introduce moderators. But let the thing be WELL done. We choose to be OUR OWN moderators. Certainly not a good thing for opressive business and goverments, who want to be the only one moderators (we should call them opressive censorers, or just fascists), but still a good thing for goverments and enterpreneus who embrace freedom and really take care of their citicens/clients.

When a user enters in the WeTube network, s/he is ussually attached to a moderator which only censors things which are not relevant to the theme s/he is attached to. For example, one moderator can specialize only on providing news, throwing out the rest. Another moderator could provide a good collection of music of a specific style. There could be also more general moderators which only accepts everything which is legal in his/her country. And there could be another interesting type of moderator which accept content which is censored in his/her country, but that content is globally considered good in the rest of the world, making him/herself an activist pro human rights against dictatorships.

A user of WeTube allways can choose whose moderators s/he wants. He is presented with a default, which is usually a group of moderators which keeps things legal. But s/he can allways choose to exit that moderation, or combine with others. Yes, multiple moderators are allowed, but interesting enough, the system allows also to be attached only to “unmoderated” (moderators themselves enter in this mode to pick good staff througout filtering).

Anyone can be a moderator and no personal information is required. Just register a nick and go to the moderation area, and there you got it.

Now it is time to introduce the concept of WeTube entry points:

The entrance to the world of WeTube

The p2p programs are a problem in themselves. They require the user to install an application in their computers and configure things. The learning curve is also ussually high, and passing links to another person is complicate because requires both sides to have the program installed and configured. Another important problem is that those programs are not really real-time, so the user must wait for the entire media to download in order to start watching it, which is extremely slow and inconvenient.

So we propose a very nice solution: WeTube can run in your browser and in your mobile device, so you can pass links around, use a nice interface, embed videos in your blogs, send by email, and do with the content all the things you can actually do with with any page.

But, because WeTube is in fact a p2p protocol, with thousands of servers and users connected to it and making it run, the web is only one of the possible interfaces. As a protocol, it can run on webpages, but also in the form of applications which uses the WeTube libraries to present themselves in other convinient forms. Desktop applications and mobile applications are perfectly posible.

The average user will use a simple web interface as his/her entry point. Many WeTube servers will also provide an entry point that will download the JavaScript program that runs in the browser, which is in fact the interface for WeTube. Optionaly, every entry point to WeTube can choose their default moderators, and even disallow the users to select moderators which provide illegal material, just to avoid legal issues. Of course, in this case, the user can change the entry point for another less restricted that allows more moderators, or simply download a full-featured browser extension with unlimited access.

The matter of allowing entry points to be fully moderated has many advantages:

- The site itself can avoid legal issues.
- A site that is meant to provide content for just one specific area, for example, news or scientifics, can filter the rest out.
-A site with content only allowed for childs, could be considered safe and can provide only useful and educative content for them, filtering out violence or sex, and also boring things.

Those sites are also a way to promote WeTube itself.

Offline liberman

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Some people complaining about downloads from github, so I put the abstract here:

WeTube

the new revolutionary p2p media provider



WeTube comes in a time in which we are seing enourmus efforts from the people to overcome the problems of censorship and central information control over all Internet. Notorius are the examples of YouTube, Vimeo, and other regulated places. YouTube itself, for example, is directly censored in many countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouTube_Censorship), impiding people to access to the biggest media database avaiable today for humans, and therefore making a precius source of information not avaiable for human evolution and free interchange of information.

But not only censorships ocur to websites, but also the websites themselves are obliged to censor many of the contents that the users upload, many times to adjust to arbitrarian regulations that are imposed by a few, only serve a few, and restrict the majority.

We belive this is a serius problem, and we should overcome it by the means we can for the moment: technology.

We are happy to present here a good solution, and we expect that the technology expressed in this document can make you excited enough to understand the big implications that this is going to achieve very soon.

We exorte you to join us. We truly need you, as this is a movement from humans to humans. Please read on.

Offline liberman

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UPDATE: please join us on #wetube on freenode and read the paper put here:
https://github.com/wetube/wetube-web

We are planning to use the original bytemaster code and get ideas from there.
We are already a team of 4 individuals, but we still need programmers with profound knowledge on internet protocols, or at least with enough time to learn.

You can help in any means you want/can.
In fact, there are many areas we need to cover, and we need a good contribution base.
For example: legal advisors, thinkers, translators, programmers, designers, anything!


This is a very good idea, I wish I had the time to learn more on internet protocols so I could help you. I wish you the best of luck in this project.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 08:51:11 pm by liberman »

Offline phoenix

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UPDATE: please join us on #wetube on freenode and read the paper put here:
https://github.com/wetube/wetube-web

We are planning to use the original bytemaster code and get ideas from there.
We are already a team of 4 individuals, but we still need programmers with profound knowledge on internet protocols, or at least with enough time to learn.


This is a very good idea, I wish I had the time to learn more on internet protocols so I could help you. I wish you the best of luck in this project.
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Offline liberman

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UPDATE: please join us on #wetube on freenode and read the paper put here:
https://github.com/wetube/wetube-web

We are planning to use the original bytemaster code and get ideas from there.
We are already a team of 4 individuals, but we still need programmers with profound knowledge on internet protocols, or at least with enough time to learn.

Offline bytemaster


That's a very neat idea Bytemaster, any plan to release it as an official DAC?

After we have a multimillion dollar dev budget. 


Or after we create a very nice open source comunity.
What is going to happen first?

I hope both happen soon :)
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
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Offline liberman

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That's a very neat idea Bytemaster, any plan to release it as an official DAC?

After we have a multimillion dollar dev budget. 


Or after we create a very nice open source comunity.
What is going to happen first?

Offline bytemaster


That's a very neat idea Bytemaster, any plan to release it as an official DAC?

After we have a multimillion dollar dev budget. 


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Offline phoenix

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That's a very neat idea Bytemaster, any plan to release it as an official DAC?
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Offline bytemaster

Interesting, bytemaster.
But I think the problem with your original idea is about the people donating to the network.
This is different, as we are a truly substitute for Youtube. Free for users, but paid by advertisers.

The nodes in my network are paid and operate for-profit, there is no donation.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline liberman

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Interesting, bytemaster.
But I think the problem with your original idea is about the people donating to the network.
This is different, as we are a truly substitute for Youtube. Free for users, but paid by advertisers.

Offline bytemaster

I agree that there's a big opportunity for this, but the distributed storage required for this would be much greater than what's normally used for a cryptocurrency block chain. In addition to keeping track of the currency on a blockchain, you would have to store what could easily be terabytes of video. You could either accomplish this by increasing the amount of data that each node is expected to store, or by increasing the number of nodes on the network.


I agree that it would require terabytes of data to store everything, but if you read carefully, I clearly say that it will going to be P2P. Much like bittorrent but optimized for real-time playback. So actually only the users store the content. Servers are the interface only.
When a user press "add to favorite", then he becomes a seed. And while the user is watching a video, he acts also as a seed for the content he is actually viewing.
So there is no need for storing any video in any server, with one exception: when someone pays a fee, the media is cached in the servers, and the servers are the shareholders of the DAC, so they obtain revenue in exchange for the space and bandwidth.

I think your idea is brilliant and may be a killer app. This is a DAC that should be built.

This is what I was working on prior to BitShares: https://github.com/bytemaster/tornet has the key to building this DAC.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
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Offline liberman

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Yeah! Anyone interested please answer here if  you can help.
If the idea goes forward, I think we would need:

Programmers: C++ and Javascript/HTML.
Program analysts: to find ways to implement the algorithms and make the system invulnerable and unbreakable.
Economists. To help thinking about the business model and how to make this productive in the details.
Legal advisers: to help thinking about possible legal issues related to copyright for the shareholders/servers, or how to avoid them.

Offline luckybit

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I agree that there's a big opportunity for this, but the distributed storage required for this would be much greater than what's normally used for a cryptocurrency block chain. In addition to keeping track of the currency on a blockchain, you would have to store what could easily be terabytes of video. You could either accomplish this by increasing the amount of data that each node is expected to store, or by increasing the number of nodes on the network.


I agree that it would require terabytes of data to store everything, but if you read carefully, I clearly say that it will going to be P2P. Much like bittorrent but optimized for real-time playback. So actually only the users store the content. Servers are the interface only.
When a user press "add to favorite", then he becomes a seed. And while the user is watching a video, he acts also as a seed for the content he is actually viewing.
So there is no need for storing any video in any server, with one exception: when someone pays a fee, the media is cached in the servers, and the servers are the shareholders of the DAC, so they obtain revenue in exchange for the space and bandwidth.

I think your idea is brilliant and may be a killer app. This is a DAC that should be built.
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Offline liberman

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Ok, that makes more sense. Do you think this should use its own cryptocurrency, or would it be better for it just to use some currently existing cryptocurrency? Or, perhaps several media DACs could all honor a single coin, thus greatly increasing its value and usefulness.

Not exactly, it would be a stock. Just like Apple and Google are stocks and they operate on regular markets, this would be another stock  operating on the Bitshares market.
Dividends could be perfectly paid in any other currency (like Bitcoins or Bitshares).

Instead of mining, the shares of this stock are obtained by serving bandwidth and space. The more you serve, the more shares you obtain, and therefore the more dividends you win.
You can also sell or buy stocks.

Offline phoenix

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Ok, that makes more sense. Do you think this should use its own cryptocurrency, or would it be better for it just to use some currently existing cryptocurrency? Or, perhaps several media DACs could all honor a single coin, thus greatly increasing its value and usefulness.
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Offline liberman

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I agree that there's a big opportunity for this, but the distributed storage required for this would be much greater than what's normally used for a cryptocurrency block chain. In addition to keeping track of the currency on a blockchain, you would have to store what could easily be terabytes of video. You could either accomplish this by increasing the amount of data that each node is expected to store, or by increasing the number of nodes on the network.

I agree that it would require terabytes of data to store everything, but if you read carefully, I clearly say that it will going to be P2P. Much like bittorrent but optimized for real-time playback. So actually only the users store the content. Servers are the interface only.
When a user press "add to favorite", then he becomes a seed. And while the user is watching a video, he acts also as a seed for the content he is actually viewing.
So there is no need for storing any video in any server, with one exception: when someone pays a fee, the media is cached in the servers, and the servers are the shareholders of the DAC, so they obtain revenue in exchange for the space and bandwidth.

Offline phoenix

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I agree that there's a big opportunity for this, but the distributed storage required for this would be much greater than what's normally used for a cryptocurrency block chain. In addition to keeping track of the currency on a blockchain, you would have to store what could easily be terabytes of video. You could either accomplish this by increasing the amount of data that each node is expected to store, or by increasing the number of nodes on the network.
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Offline liberman

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UPDATE

We are separating Wetube from Bitcloud, which is the protocol.

The protocol is here:

https://github.com/wetube/bitcloud/blob/master/bitcloud.org#introduction

Our forum is here:

http://talk.bitcloudproject.org/


Another great idea.
Imagine a decentralized site which holds media content uploaded by users, and serves video in real time to other users. Pretty much like a decentralized YouTube.

Ideas:

  • Engine based on BitTorrent, slightly modified so order of media parts is important. First parts of the media are served first.
  • Transparency of video downloads. The user doesn't have to do nothing, and use the site like he uses youtube.
  • A user can select how much he/she want to share for every video or part of video he downloaded. Ussually it should be 1:1 and infinity for the videos he added to favorite. He stops to share when he abandon the page or turn off the program, or after a predefined time chosen.
  • Optimized cache for users: view one time and see many times without having to download it again. Favored videos are stored permanently, while others are automatically deleted when the cache is full. User can choose how much cache does he/she wants.
  • Video uploaders retain their content permanently or until many users hold the video in their cache.
  • Interface similar to youtube. A javascript version for browsers, but also an application with more advanced features.
  • The main servers of the interface are the shareholders of the DAC, and the more you contribute, the more shares you obtain.
  • Integration with AdWords DAC, so revenew obtained from ads are returned in the form of dividends to the shareholders.
  • Integration with Keyhotee IDs.
  • Decentralized search engine based on Gnutella, adapted to serve faster (using cache on servers), reputations, views, related, categories, etc.
  • Pay per priority: your video can get in the front page and give extra bandwidth by servers if you pay a fee..

These are only some of the ideas. We could start to program immediately after the first alpha of bitshares is released, and meanwhile put the ideas on paper. The opportunities are big!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 01:54:00 pm by liberman »