Author Topic: Advice wanted: Pay rate for developer delegate  (Read 12330 times)

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Offline gamey

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How much is 10%?  Starting a new delegate is a bit silly.  People will always be dragging their feet as they're voted out.  You're just adding steps that don't need to be there to prevent the issue at the start.  These people aren't paid monthly.  It is hard enough to keep track of everything.  Voting people in/out according to raises sucks.

We need a defined traceable way to burn funds.  Then we need a tool to show the pay rate a person has received.  If they want to not do much for a week, they should be able to burn funds for that week in a readily transparent way.

Be smart about who is voted in with dilution.
Be quick to vote those out who aren't doing anything or being responsive.
Be quick to vote these same people back in if they make up for their lack of productivity.
Be quicker in giving feedback about direction people should have and slower about complaining.

Do not make up a bunch of weird rules that further complicated a system that is fairly clean.
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Offline roadscape

As a counter point consider this:

1) svk has clearly demonstrated he can produce a great product and is cautious but not unfriendly to the open source concept.
2) svk has demonstrated a long standing and unflagging commitment to BitShares.

What does he get for this? A pay rate that starts at 80% - 100% rather than, "Start at 10% and if your work looks good campaign a new delegate at a higher rate".

IMHO his compensation for past work is paid out over the time it would take an unknown developer to get from 0% - 10% up to 80% - 100%.

This is how I see it.
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Offline Riverhead

As a counter point consider this:

1) svk has clearly demonstrated he can produce a great product and is cautious but not unfriendly to the open source concept.
2) svk has demonstrated a long standing and unflagging commitment to BitShares.

What does he get for this? A pay rate that starts at 80% - 100% rather than, "Start at 10% and if your work looks good campaign a new delegate at a higher rate".

IMHO his compensation for past work is paid out over the time it would take an unknown developer to get from 0% - 10% up to 80% - 100%.

Offline GaltReport

Generally agree.  I think he should have to open source it  through to receive any pay for work already done (although I sent him a small tip already. kudo's to me :) ).

Payment for work done and open-sourced seems like a good practice. 

Going forward, payment for  achievement of specific results.  I leave it to  BM and team to flesh out  the details of that.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 06:21:20 pm by GaltReport »

zerosum

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I agree with:
Agent86,

As well as with everybody who agrees with him (in order of appearance):
Xeroc
Gamey
Emski

And in this particular case I believe svk has done enough to deserve  at least several months of pay for the work done so far, no doubt.

Offline emski

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I want to say that I totally disagree with this philosophy/attitude.  Why shouldn't we compensate svk for past work?

We are going to ask him to open source his work and then tell him he deserves no compensation for his past work except a pat on the back, and then ask what else can he do for us?  Just because the work is done so maybe he doesn't have much "room to negotiate"?  I think it's a bad attitude that serves to discourage others from freely contributing and shows a lack of appreciation.

Do we want to reward results or just "work"?  I'd rather reward and encourage results.

These systems codify a "fair" or socially agreed distribution of stake.  I think to get "buy in" we should cultivate a sense of fairness.  I think it is ridiculous to expect people will contribute anything of significance if we take this attitude and I think it encourages competition.  I'm not saying we reward things of questionable value but bitsharesblocks was a legit contribution.

I totally agree with this.

Offline gamey

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I want to say that I totally disagree with this philosophy/attitude.  Why shouldn't we compensate svk for past work?

We are going to ask him to open source his work and then tell him he deserves no compensation for his past work except a pat on the back, and then ask what else can he do for us?  Just because the work is done so maybe he doesn't have much "room to negotiate"?  I think it's a bad attitude that serves to discourage others from freely contributing and shows a lack of appreciation.

Do we want to reward results or just "work"?  I'd rather reward and encourage results.

These systems codify a "fair" or socially agreed distribution of stake.  I think to get "buy in" we should cultivate a sense of fairness.  I think it is ridiculous to expect people will contribute anything of significance if we take this attitude and I think it encourages competition.  I'm not saying we reward things of questionable value but bitsharesblocks was a legit contribution.

+5%  You need to hammer it into everyone's head. 

Back when this first started being announced I said we're going to have a problem with too many chiefs, not enough indians.  Too many cooks in the kitchen.  However one wishes to state it.

Rune has said to hire every developer we can possibly find.  I disagree with that completely, but people who have shown work and progress already should be paid if they wish to be paid.  If they don't continue with the work then they can be voted out.  It is quite simple.  Since SVK has already shown what he was willing to do for free, then there shouldn't be that much question about what he'll do going forward.  Yes, he can quit working but he can be voted out relatively easily too. 

One thing about this system is it is quite flexible.  The overhead for hiring/firing is very small.  The biggest problem is chasing people off by random people making endless noise that such and such is not producing value.
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Offline xeroc

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We are going to ask him to open source his work and then tell him he deserves no compensation for his past work except a pat on the back, and then ask what else can he do for us?  Just because the work is done so maybe he doesn't have much "room to negotiate"?  I think it's a bad attitude that serves to discourage others from freely contributing and shows a lack of appreciation.

Do we want to reward results or just "work"?  I'd rather reward and encourage results.

These systems codify a "fair" or socially agreed distribution of stake.  I think to get "buy in" we should cultivate a sense of fairness.  I think it is ridiculous to expect people will contribute anything of significance if we take this attitude and I think it encourages competition.  I'm not saying we reward things of questionable value but bitsharesblocks was a legit contribution.
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Offline Agent86

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I hate to be "that guy" but I want to point out that delegate pay should probably not be treated as a reward for "past" work (although that can help to establish the trust that you need to get "hired" initially). I think of your past work as your resume for getting the job. In order to be voted in you should publish a list of projects or features that you'd like to implement, budget, timeline, and key results. Then once you are voted in you should commit to regular status updates, milestones, metrics, open source development, and anything else you can do to give shareholders confidence that they are getting their money's worth.

Lastly I'll just say that this is one of the main pitfalls of the dilution proposal. Personally I think the threshold for ongoing performance evaluation and management is too high for the average stakeholder. We already have very low vote participation, and the only thing we're managing is block production. What will inevitably happen is that people will trust their votes to third parties who have the time and expertise to evaluate the performance of a given delegate. Those people then become yet another "layer" of separation from the stakeholders, which in turn potentially impacts security since we've conflated the rewards for block production and literally everything else the "company" does. /rant

I agree, if you want my vote there needs be a roadmap for future work and not compensation for past work.

It is a complex system and an experiment... I think that major stake holders will act to get things done.

I want to say that I totally disagree with this philosophy/attitude.  Why shouldn't we compensate svk for past work?

We are going to ask him to open source his work and then tell him he deserves no compensation for his past work except a pat on the back, and then ask what else can he do for us?  Just because the work is done so maybe he doesn't have much "room to negotiate"?  I think it's a bad attitude that serves to discourage others from freely contributing and shows a lack of appreciation.

Do we want to reward results or just "work"?  I'd rather reward and encourage results.

These systems codify a "fair" or socially agreed distribution of stake.  I think to get "buy in" we should cultivate a sense of fairness.  I think it is ridiculous to expect people will contribute anything of significance if we take this attitude and I think it encourages competition.  I'm not saying we reward things of questionable value but bitsharesblocks was a legit contribution.

Offline cube

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I would support you for a paid position assuming you commit to a certain level of effort that continually enhances bitsharesblocks and makes bitsharesblocks open source (if it isn't already).   

The role of bitsharesblocks will have to expand as we add support for light weight clients that need RPC query access for information.

I would like to move the source for bitsharesblocks to github.com/BitShares/ 

One thing I really want to see for a bit asset is the cumulative total of bitassets required to cover by a certain number of days.   This will let traders know how much volume of cover pressure or "future buy demand" there exists

I would definitely look to keep supporting and expanding BitsharesBlocks and will be happy to add support for light weight clients.

I've been asked before to make it open source and I've been mulling over the question. On one hand I'm attracted to the whole idea of open-source software, on the other hand I'm a little intimated by the whole thing and also skeptical/worried that someone will just take over my code and use it to build a competitor. As someone who's never published an open-source project it just kinda feels like giving away all your trade secrets..

I've been leaning towards publishing the front-end code though and if you want to include it in the Bitshares github that could be arranged. I'll probably make a decision on that before making my official delegate announcement post. I'm thinking I could offer to make it open-source after one month as a paid delegate, as that will ensure some compensation and also allow me some time to "polish" the code :)

I'll see what I can do for the cover stats.

Thanks for the effort and taking the brave step from closed-source to open-source.  The community will benefit from your fine work and ideas.  :)
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Offline CLains

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I like the idea of conditional voting that liondani brought to the table, in the end perhaps each Delegate can see at what income-thresholds they will get enough votes to get elected.. And then perhaps a "vesting period for income" threshhold as well  8)

Offline ssjpts

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if you want more Vote,i thinke translate to chinese is very importent.
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Offline cass

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Offline alphaBar

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Offline alt

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I would support you for a paid position assuming you commit to a certain level of effort that continually enhances bitsharesblocks and makes bitsharesblocks open source (if it isn't already).   

The role of bitsharesblocks will have to expand as we add support for light weight clients that need RPC query access for information.

I would like to move the source for bitsharesblocks to github.com/BitShares/ 

One thing I really want to see for a bit asset is the cumulative total of bitassets required to cover by a certain number of days.   This will let traders know how much volume of cover pressure or "future buy demand" there exists

I would definitely look to keep supporting and expanding BitsharesBlocks and will be happy to add support for light weight clients.

I've been asked before to make it open source and I've been mulling over the question. On one hand I'm attracted to the whole idea of open-source software, on the other hand I'm a little intimated by the whole thing and also skeptical/worried that someone will just take over my code and use it to build a competitor. As someone who's never published an open-source project it just kinda feels like giving away all your trade secrets..

I've been leaning towards publishing the front-end code though and if you want to include it in the Bitshares github that could be arranged. I'll probably make a decision on that before making my official delegate announcement post. I'm thinking I could offer to make it open-source after one month as a paid delegate, as that will ensure some compensation and also allow me some time to "polish" the code :)

I'll see what I can do for the cover stats.
wonderful  +5% +5% +5%