Author Topic: Check Your Allocation - Episode II: Check It Again  (Read 30433 times)

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Offline toast

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Please, guys do you really think this is right?

BM announcing an allocation where DNS got half of its market cap's worth is the only "wrong" thing here. Everything else is us *giving you an extra gift because we feel bad*.
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Offline toast

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I'm not sure I understand. BM underestimated how much BTS he had for poeple people to lose. He used the words "made them whole" but if you ran the numbers even at the time you would see that that is nonsense. He gave away everything he had.

Who would you take BTS from to make your optional gift bigger? The dev funds were proposed and rejected.
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Offline bobb

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Please. Just have a look at the thread I was clear how it was meant:

We don't want anyone to lose out, especially those who bought into the systems like DNS after launch.

This allocation should not harm any other players other than us and should make everyone who purchased DNS whole. 

Trying to spin having said "making everyone whole" now is just mean.
Please, guys do you really think this is right?
First telling people "you will be made whole" and then later  "Seems like "made them whole" made people think BM could somehow produce enough value to give as much as he gave nov 5th?". rly?
Why did you tell people that in the first place. Just to silence them because they don't second guess you?

I normally try to read all my messages a second time and try to remove all non-productive emotional parts but I _feel_ being lied to, betrayed and I am just sad right now.
Let's not get into that 'you cant' make it right for everyone" argument. This is just wrong.

Offline liondani

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Offline biophil

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Seems like "made them whole" made people think BM could somehow produce enough value to give as much as he gave nov 5th?

What he said was he would empty I3 DNS funds to give as much as possible to people who supported DNS. This means claimed balances, except that exchanges actually had a lot of "claimed" balances that hadn't moved.

At worst you should get 1/3rd of what you expected because we went from thinking we had to give 0 to people on exchanges to about 2/3rds of I3's money. But that is consistent with "making people whole with I3's entire stake."


Note I floated a proposal to use one of the dev fund keys for the bonus rather than deleting it and scaling up nov 5th holders (taking a few percent of BTS from nov 5th DNS holder to give bm's victims) but that got shot down.

Yeah, I'm not really being critical any more. You have enough to put up with as it is. It's just that saying "made them whole" was wildly ambiguous, and easy to interpret as "it'll be like BM's announcement never happened."

I remember your proposal about increasing the rescue funds; I liked it, but of course it got shot down. Did you really expect anything else? Changing an allocation after a snapshot will never be popular.
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Offline toast

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Seems like "made them whole" made people think BM could somehow produce enough value to give as much as he gave nov 5th?

What he said was he would empty I3 DNS funds to give as much as possible to people who supported DNS. This means claimed balances, except that exchanges actually had a lot of "claimed" balances that hadn't moved.

At worst you should get 1/3rd of what you expected because we went from thinking we had to give 0 to people on exchanges to about 2/3rds of I3's money. But that is consistent with "making people whole with I3's entire stake."


Note I floated a proposal to use one of the dev fund keys for the bonus rather than deleting it and scaling up nov 5th holders (taking a few percent of BTS from nov 5th DNS holder to give bm's victims) but that got shot down.
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Offline bobb

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I just assumed with all the talk of "making people whole" that people would get something close to the same # of DNS they held during the announcement. So if I had 10,000 non-genesis DNS in my wallet during the announcement, for some reason I assumed that "being made whole" would involve giving me the equivalent of 10,000 more DNS.

Actually, I don't know how it can be understood in any other way than you just put it.
After BM's announcement the price of DNS dropped more than 50% and after that toast apologized and told everyone they will be made whole.
Could you please elaborate why the following changed everything?

Despite cleaning out I3's DNS, this does not actually add up to much extra because BM underestimated how much stake exchanges had started trading but not claimed (buyers on BTC38).

It was known how much DNS was claimed and everyone was told as long as you moved your funds to your wallet you will be made whole.
Just have look at the thread yourself: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10381.0

If I understand correctly you decided to shift the compensation more to BTC38 instead of compensating individual addresses holding already claimed DNS?
On which basis was this decided?

Plainly said you went from "making people whole" to ''not giving numbers because it'll just make you feel bad because it's not much"
without telling anyone?

Really sorry to keep you busy with this. But this is either very wrong or I missed something.
I would be happy to hear it is the latter :)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 07:16:14 pm by bobb »

Offline biophil

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Ok so not generating the values for you was just lazy, my bad. The point was those values are a gift and can't be "wrong".

Despite cleaning out I3's DNS, this does not actually add up to much extra because BM underestimated how much stake exchanges had started trading but not claimed (buyers on BTC38).

Code: [Select]
bts to bonus: 5071959
bts for exchanges: 3381306
bts for on-chain: 1690653
total claimed DNS outside of exchanges 1402149418
BTS per DNS for normal claimed balances 0.00120575810763

Ah. yep, about 5% of what people thought they were going to get. It was a nice gesture, anyway.

Thanks for posting the numbers!

How did you compute what you expected?

I just assumed with all the talk of "making people whole" that people would get something close to the same # of DNS they held during the announcement. So if I had 10,000 non-genesis DNS in my wallet during the announcement, for some reason I assumed that "being made whole" would involve giving me the equivalent of 10,000 more DNS. I'm not sure where I came up with that assumption... Now that I think about it a little more, it's obvious that there are many different ways to interpret "making people whole," and there's no reason at all to assume that my interpretation was correct.

So my 5% number up there may as well have been random. In the end, it looks something like this: "if you had non-genesis DNS in your wallet on the announcement, and you didn't touch your balance before Nov 5, then you'll get about 5% more BTS than if you had the same amount of 'normal' DNS in your wallet."
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Offline toast

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Ok so not generating the values for you was just lazy, my bad. The point was those values are a gift and can't be "wrong".

Despite cleaning out I3's DNS, this does not actually add up to much extra because BM underestimated how much stake exchanges had started trading but not claimed (buyers on BTC38).

Code: [Select]
bts to bonus: 5071959
bts for exchanges: 3381306
bts for on-chain: 1690653
total claimed DNS outside of exchanges 1402149418
BTS per DNS for normal claimed balances 0.00120575810763

Ah. yep, about 5% of what people thought they were going to get. It was a nice gesture, anyway.

Thanks for posting the numbers!

How did you compute what you expected?
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Offline biophil

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Ok so not generating the values for you was just lazy, my bad. The point was those values are a gift and can't be "wrong".

Despite cleaning out I3's DNS, this does not actually add up to much extra because BM underestimated how much stake exchanges had started trading but not claimed (buyers on BTC38).

Code: [Select]
bts to bonus: 5071959
bts for exchanges: 3381306
bts for on-chain: 1690653
total claimed DNS outside of exchanges 1402149418
BTS per DNS for normal claimed balances 0.00120575810763

Ah. yep, about 5% of what people thought they were going to get. It was a nice gesture, anyway.

Thanks for posting the numbers!
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Offline toast

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If one is not occupied full time with bitshares, it is really hard to keep up with all this.

I have been a PTS holder during the double snapshot.
How can I find out how many BTS I will receive, how and when to get them?

I have the latest BTS OSX client installed but no BTS balance yet after importing succesfully the PTS key.

Thank you for helping me out

Any help is kindly appreciated

PM the key
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Offline Bitty

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If one is not occupied full time with bitshares, it is really hard to keep up with all this.

I have been a PTS holder during the double snapshot.
How can I find out how many BTS I will receive, how and when to get them?

I have the latest BTS OSX client installed but no BTS balance yet after importing succesfully the PTS key.

Thank you for helping me out

Any help is kindly appreciated

Offline toast

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Ok so not generating the values for you was just lazy, my bad. The point was those values are a gift and can't be "wrong".

Despite cleaning out I3's DNS, this does not actually add up to much extra because BM underestimated how much stake exchanges had started trading but not claimed (buyers on BTC38).

Code: [Select]
bts to bonus: 5071959
bts for exchanges: 3381306
bts for on-chain: 1690653
total claimed DNS outside of exchanges 1402149418
BTS per DNS for normal claimed balances 0.00120575810763
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Offline biophil

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I also kind of wonder why that account contains >200 keys.

Hi bobb, sorry that nobody has addressed this question of yours yet: you have a ton of keys because of TITAN, the privacy feature in bitshares. Every transaction you make, you get at least one new key and your client never re-uses keys. That's why you have so many keys with no balances; each key was used once and then as soon as the balance was moved out of it, it will never be used again.
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Offline biophil

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If anyone still has problems, please post:
1) The address, and what you expect
2) What you actually see

That's good for the advanced members... they will see the problems
and they will be resolved because they mention them here... What about the newbies or investors they don't have time to come on the forum to see these posts?
Is it possible that some of them don't get the expected allocation? It will harm us if  they find out to late that they don't received what they expected... Am I missing something?

That's why the advanced members check. We can't check every individual balance. If something affects only users who don't bother checking, that's bad luck. What am I supposed to do? Re-validate it again using yet another source?

Toast, can you tell us, or link us to, a page that tells us what we should expect given what kinds of balances? I'd be delighted to tell you what I expect to see in my allocation, but I have no idea what it should be. I'm talking mostly about the allocation that's for people who had non-genesis balances at the time of Bytemaster's market-crashing announcement.

For that allocation I'm not giving numbers because it'll just make you feel bad because it's not much. Also it was never promised before deciding to give the bonus so there is no "correct" amount - the call for how much to give vs normal balances and exchange unclaimed balances was made manually.

Help me help you, toast. If you don't give us numbers, we can't tell you what we expect to see. It's as simple as that! Are you telling me there are no numbers because the allocation was made inconsistently? Are you telling me you won't give numbers because it's hard to give numbers? Don't worry about my feelings - I'm a grown-ass man.

Until you give us numbers, all I can tell you is this:
 What I expected to see: some positive number.
What I actually see: zero.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

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