Author Topic: Why I learned to Stop Worrying and Love Sparkle  (Read 5863 times)

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Offline sparkles

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People have asked me to announce a snapshot date for PTS other than November 5th.    I cannot find a snapshot generator that use to be hosted at genesis.bitshares.org so can someone point me to the new PTS forum so that I can ask them to produce the snapshot for me?

I will do the snapshot on December 14th, the anniversary of the American Revolution:

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The first military encounter of the American Revolution occurred, when on the report of news carried by Paul Revere that the British intended to station a garrison at Portsmouth, New Hampshire; Major John Sullivan led a band of militia to Fort William and Mary, broke into its arsenal, and carried off arms and ammunition, 1774

If I cannot get a snapshot produced by the PTS community then I will use Nov 5th PTS snapshot.
I will generate the BTS snapshot on December 14th.
AGS is what it is.

Help spread the word! 

Offline BldSwtTrs

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Public Good - a commodity or service that is provided without profit to all members of a society, either by the government or a private individual or organization.

I think your definition of Public Good is rather broad to have any meaning what so ever.  Gold is not a public good, it is owned by one person at a time.  To claim "the value of gold" is a public good would apply to all goods so as to make your definition meaningless.
Fair enough, I should have explained better what I mean with gold: I were talking about gold as a ledger technology.

Basically I think gold is valuable because it's the most widely recognize universal ledger (the most reliable for now, but I think the ascent of Bitcoin will move that ranking), and therein, the better store of value. 

The units of gold are indeed rival. But the discovery of that ledger technology benefited every body, and created tremendous positive externalities.

With Bitcoin the same applies: bitcoins units are obviously rival, but Bitcoin, the protocol, is non-rival.
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When I say it is statist I do so because the "public good" argument is used to justify government control over every single "public good" industry.   So clearly they want to define it as broadly as possible.   They include everything from Roads, to Education, to Healthcare, to Money, to Police.

The Public Good argument is so broad that it consumes over 50% of the US economy as measured by Public Spending.   

So when you claim BTC is a Public Good and that mining makes good Public Goods when in reality BTC is a private currency and mining is a private enterprise it shows a huge logical inconsistency which needs to be resolved.
I agree, the term public good is probably more confusing than helping. I'd better say it's a technology which create value by it's very existence. And what allows this technology to exist, and therefore creating the value associated with its own existence, should no be considered a waste.

The next question is: can one create the same value while consuming less resources by tweaking that technology? And my position is that by tweaking the technology you are modifying the kind of value which is created (ie. the two technologies don't served exactly the same human purposes).

The purpose of establishing a new universal ledger is better served by PoW (because of the inerty it creates). And the purpose of leveraging the possibilities open by the blockchain technology, other than the universal ledger function, are better served by PoS.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 03:56:33 pm by BldSwtTrs »

Offline bytemaster

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Public Good - a commodity or service that is provided without profit to all members of a society, either by the government or a private individual or organization.

I think your definition of Public Good is rather broad to have any meaning what so ever.  Gold is not a public good, it is owned by one person at a time.  To claim "the value of gold" is a public good would apply to all goods so as to make your definition meaningless.

When I say it is statist I do so because the "public good" argument is used to justify government control over every single "public good" industry.   So clearly they want to define it as broadly as possible.   They include everything from Roads, to Education, to Healthcare, to Money, to Police.

The Public Good argument is so broad that it consumes over 50% of the US economy as measured by Public Spending.   

So when you claim BTC is a Public Good and that mining makes good Public Goods when in reality BTC is a private currency and mining is a private enterprise it shows a huge logical inconsistency which needs to be resolved.   


For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline BldSwtTrs

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Public good it statist think.   Economy always matters.   

There are many fallacies in your post.  Proof of waste does not makes coins scarce.  The protocol does.  In fact proof of waste makes coins more abundant than necessary by diluting to pay for the waste.   
Yes so the protocol makes the coin scarces and PoW makes changes in the protocol more difficult. So if we follow the causal chain we get that PoW protects the scarcity better.

I am not a statist, the term public good is not necessarily politically loaded. It's an economic concept first and foremost. Language is a public good, alphabet too, gold too. I can use them and enjoy their value freely, unless other people use some force and politics to prevent me to do so. All technological advances create public goods (and it doesn't prevent their users and inventors to profit from them economically), public goods are the byproducts of the market. They are just a specific type of positive externalities.

The alphabet create so much value that it's worth it to waste (!) some time to learn it. Gold used to create so much value for its users that it's worth it to "waste" some capital to mine it.

Your position is that PoS can create as much value than PoW, with less cost. But I think your position is oblivious to the fact that a good chunk of the value created by PoW is specific to PoW. The value created by PoW is not homogeneous with the value created by PoS.

PoS and PoW both create different, non-fungible, kind of value. Therefore the way of thinking "the costs are lower with PoS while the value it creates is potentially the same, so PoW is absurd" is flawed.
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But like I said we will agree to disagree and support the sparkle experiment.  Obviously people who think like you will value sparkle more than bts.
I think PoS is good for doing what BTS is doing (ie. banking and exchanges related services, DNS...), whereas PoW is good for doing what BTC is doing (ie. stable universal ledger related services).

Therefore I think BTS will not remplace BTC, and I think sparkle will not remplace BTS.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 02:47:58 pm by BldSwtTrs »

Offline bytemaster

Public good it statist think.   Economy always matters.   

There are many fallacies in your post.  Proof of waste does not makes coins scarce.  The protocol does.  In fact proof of waste makes coins more abundant than necessary by diluting to pay for the waste. 

But like I said we will agree to disagree and support the sparkle experiment.  Obviously people who think like you will value sparkle more than bts. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline BldSwtTrs

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Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

That's cult mentality. If someone respects the social consensus, no need of critical thinking anymore ? Even if it's someone that never delivers anything, full support accorded ?

I hold BitShares because it's the best product out there, and because I believe that mining is absurd. And BitShares is slowly abandoning the argument "mining is absurd" because now it offends sparklers. That's a big shot in our foot.

No, I am not abandoning the idea that mining is absurd.   It is clearly absurd!   
How can you say it's absurd when your actions have shown how valuable mining is?
With PoW the BTS/BTSX protocol wouldn't have change. PoW is better for preserving the scarcity of the tokens and that definitely has a price.

If we have to spend dozen of billions $ each year to have the most reliable and usable ledger of the history of mankind, that's not absurd to pay that price. You have construct BTS with the paradigm of profitability in mind. That's all well and good, but BTC should rather be judge as a public good rather than as a business. Profitability doesn't matter for BTC, what matter are security and stability.

BTS is a business, BTC is a public good. I think what is absurd is to think they both have to be conceptually molded in a the same single paradigm.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 01:24:52 pm by BldSwtTrs »

Offline Troglodactyl

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Excellent!  I think that 15 years from now, POW will be mostly dead.

Right now though, and perhaps for the next few years, there's a large market of people who demand it, and we might as well sell them what they want in a way that leads them toward better things instead of away from them.

Offline Riverhead

This is a great manifestation of the power of endorsement.

The bigger story here is adoption. Bitshare's engine promises to free people from financial tyranny. The underlying consensus mechanism isn't as important. The market is huge and both will probably have a long life. Heads we win tails they lose.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 03:56:00 am by Riverhead »

Offline jwiz168

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Honoring the original plans of Bitshares is without a question the reason why Sparkle is here to stay. No matter POW or POS, doesn't matter. This was what Invictus trumpeted all along last year (polymorphic digital assets). I am really glad that I have envisioned this as a great way to invest .

Offline sparkles

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Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

That's cult mentality. If someone respects the social consensus, no need of critical thinking anymore ? Even if it's someone that never delivers anything, full support accorded ?

I hold BitShares because it's the best product out there, and because I believe that mining is absurd. And BitShares is slowly abandoning the argument "mining is absurd" because now it offends sparklers. That's a big shot in our foot.

No, I am not abandoning the idea that mining is absurd.   It is clearly absurd!   

I'm offended.  If that is your attitude then I am out of here.

Just Kidding.   

POW is an untapped market that someone needs to serve.   For those who view POS as a dead end, guaranteed to fail they will like Sparkle.   The two camps don't have to change their opinion, just agree to disagree and focus on the end result.   

Offline bytemaster

Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

That's cult mentality. If someone respects the social consensus, no need of critical thinking anymore ? Even if it's someone that never delivers anything, full support accorded ?

I hold BitShares because it's the best product out there, and because I believe that mining is absurd. And BitShares is slowly abandoning the argument "mining is absurd" because now it offends sparklers. That's a big shot in our foot.

No, I am not abandoning the idea that mining is absurd.   It is clearly absurd!   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline inarizushi

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Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

That's cult mentality. If someone respects the social consensus, no need of critical thinking anymore ? Even if it's someone that never delivers anything, full support accorded ?

I hold BitShares because it's the best product out there, and because I believe that mining is absurd. And BitShares is slowly abandoning the argument "mining is absurd" because now it offends sparklers. That's a big shot in our foot.
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Offline mf-tzo

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Anything that honors AGS/PTS/BTS will always have my support and I will never dump.
Anyhting that honors DOGE,BTC etc no matter how promising it is ...no support sorry..
 +5% to sparkles

Offline inarizushi

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Does the BitShares team know sparkles personally ? He is new to the community : why is he given so much confidence ? Did he deliver a great product ? Did he bring great ideas (behind "he put back proof of work when we finally got rid of it") or did anything to deserve the support he is shown by all the leading developers ?

I really don't get why we are supposed to "love" any project that respects the social consensus. Respecting the social consensus is not a proof a project is great. Please focus marketing on BitShares before getting sparkle an onramp and fully support it. "BitShares fully support proof of waste", come on, that's bad.
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Offline sparkles

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Great show of support.  It is very much appreciated.