Author Topic: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement  (Read 101474 times)

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Offline fuzzy

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #135 on: December 08, 2014, 08:32:45 pm »
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

This would be inconsistent with the idea that this is an upgrade to PTS. DPOS PTS is not a new DAC.

Or at least that's the story I expect the DPOS people to adhere to.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Though it is sad to think that AGS will likely die a slow death and I will likely wish I had simply purchased PTS from the beginning, I agree 100% with this assessment. 

This is not a new DAC.  It is a vanilla token with one purpose---to be a sharedropping token for those who believe in DACs and would like to show themselves as such. 

However, I would rather move away from this issue and move onto what I feel is far more important:  The chinese community has brought up some very valid concerns about running a DPOS PTS chain by itself.  Their argument is that there is already bitPTS and so it could easily be used as the sharedropping token because at present it will not be profitable to run PTS delegates at the current market cap. 

Can we please discuss this?
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #136 on: December 08, 2014, 09:01:07 pm »
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

This would be inconsistent with the idea that this is an upgrade to PTS. DPOS PTS is not a new DAC.

Or at least that's the story I expect the DPOS people to adhere to.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Though it is sad to think that AGS will likely die a slow death and I will likely wish I had simply purchased PTS from the beginning, I agree 100% with this assessment. 

This is not a new DAC.  It is a vanilla token with one purpose---to be a sharedropping token for those who believe in DACs and would like to show themselves as such. 

However, I would rather move away from this issue and move onto what I feel is far more important:  The chinese community has brought up some very valid concerns about running a DPOS PTS chain by itself.  Their argument is that there is already bitPTS and so it could easily be used as the sharedropping token because at present it will not be profitable to run PTS delegates at the current market cap. 

Can we please discuss this?

That's an excellent point. Honestly, I would just let the market handle this. I can't see it lasting long past the big initial dump, but who knows?

Offline alphaBar

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #137 on: December 08, 2014, 11:41:17 pm »
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

This would be inconsistent with the idea that this is an upgrade to PTS. DPOS PTS is not a new DAC.

Or at least that's the story I expect the DPOS people to adhere to.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Though it is sad to think that AGS will likely die a slow death and I will likely wish I had simply purchased PTS from the beginning, I agree 100% with this assessment. 

This is not a new DAC.  It is a vanilla token with one purpose---to be a sharedropping token for those who believe in DACs and would like to show themselves as such. 

However, I would rather move away from this issue and move onto what I feel is far more important:  The chinese community has brought up some very valid concerns about running a DPOS PTS chain by itself.  Their argument is that there is already bitPTS and so it could easily be used as the sharedropping token because at present it will not be profitable to run PTS delegates at the current market cap. 

Can we please discuss this?

* A user-issued asset under BTS would not be a viable deflationary currency-DAC competitor to Bitcoin.
* A user-issued asset under BTS would not be a viable sharedrop instrument for 3rd party DACs that have competitive overlap with BTS.
* A user-issued asset under BTS would not be a useful resource for 3rd party developers seeking a reference implementation of the Bitshares Toolkit that can be easily forked and sharedropped (without all of the layers of functionality built atop it by BTS). See for example our new "import by signed message" functionality that is the 1st of its kind. PTS as a token would be divorced entirely from PTS as a development community and resource.
* A user-issued asset under BTS would, over time, narrow the demographic of PTS holders from being DAC-agnostic to being exclusively pro-BTS.

There are many other reasons, but these were the main points distilled from the many prior discussions of this topic.

Offline slacking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #138 on: December 09, 2014, 01:38:31 am »
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #139 on: December 09, 2014, 02:29:37 am »
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

"new coin" - Nope, simply a badly needed upgrade to the protocol. The current PoW chain is practically dead and the upgrade will not modify the allocation in any form. If AGS holders decided to create a DPoS chain, would we then insist that they also sharedrop PTS? Of course not. Both PTS and AGS are benefactors of DPoS and neither is a "future DAC". The social consensus would be violated if we transferred ownership of AGS to PTS or vice versa. They represent different demographics and are equal and separate prongs of the social consensus.

"new people" - I3 transferred custodianship of PTS long, long ago and this is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly, there is no name change yet. After the upgrade the community will decide the path to take on rebranding. It is necessary to prevent confusion between PTS and BTS and I believe would be performed even if we had a healthy PTS chain and no upgrade were necessary.

Offline BTSdac

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #140 on: December 09, 2014, 05:00:01 am »
I  think it is a new coin rather than update of PTS
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Offline Stan

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #141 on: December 09, 2014, 06:12:06 am »
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

"new coin" - Nope, simply a badly needed upgrade to the protocol. The current PoW chain is practically dead and the upgrade will not modify the allocation in any form. If AGS holders decided to create a DPoS chain, would we then insist that they also sharedrop PTS? Of course not. Both PTS and AGS are benefactors of DPoS and neither is a "future DAC". The social consensus would be violated if we transferred ownership of AGS to PTS or vice versa. They represent different demographics and are equal and separate prongs of the social consensus.

"new people" - I3 transferred custodianship of PTS long, long ago and this is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly, there is no name change yet. After the upgrade the community will decide the path to take on rebranding. It is necessary to prevent confusion between PTS and BTS and I believe would be performed even if we had a healthy PTS chain and no upgrade were necessary.

For what it is worth, I agree with alphabar's statement of facts.  (It's not worth much because I am speaking as a free lance employee of BitShares the DAC not as an officer of I3 the corporation.)

PTS has been independent of I3 from the beginning.  FreeTrade cloned it to BM's specifications and TestZ cared for it until AlphaBar teamed up with TestZ to upgrade it to a state of the art coin.  I3 merely negotiated an industry consensus to use PTS as a demographic worth targeting with new DAC shares.  We could have picked dogecoin.   ::)

Technically there are many ways to implement an upgrade and one of them is indistinguishable from snapshotting a new coin.  The fact that the same technical approach may be used for both should not cause confusion that this is a new coin. It is nonsense to assert that somehow people who do not own the original suddenly have rights to shares in the upgrade.  The purpose of PTS remains the same - to represent the heirs of the demographic who originally mined and held the shares to achieve a traditionally acceptable initial distribution.   To argue that a protocoin needs to honor some other protocoin is to miss the whole point of BitShares Sharedrop Theory.  Protocoins represent demographics that developers might want to honor.  It does them no good to become some diluted mix of demographic proto-genes.

Similary,  Test Z is the constant thread of developer continuity between FreeTrade and AlphaBar.  The developers get to say whether they are implementing a new coin or upgrading an old one.  Nobody else gets to force some other model on them.

The market then gets to say whether they accept what the developers are proposing.

The community can help this process by working to achieve a consensus.  While it is possible for a vocal faction to insist on a competition to the death between POW-PTS and DPOS-PTS it should be obvious that that is in nobody's best interest.  By working to reach a consensus where the exchanges are encouraged to do a smooth transition, the value of everyone's holdings becomes greater - much greater than it would have been if no one had stepped up to implement the upgrade or if confusion is allowed to reign as to who wears the crown of legitimacy.  "Le roi est mort, vive le roi!"; "El rey ha muerto, ¡viva el rey"


I3 has built a decentralized industry, set it free, and is about to fade into the night like Satoshi.  No one needs its permission to do anything.  The argument whether this is an official I3 product or not is moot.  Nothing is dependent on I3 any more. 

BitShares is now a sovereign, untethered DAC.  Just as I described a year ago in http://letstalkbitcoin.com/bitcoin-and-the-three-laws-of-robotics/

We have achieved our long-stated goal of complete decentralization of development and no one should insist on re-centralizing it.   The industry is built and operating autonomously exactly as we have been saying it would be.  Now it doesn't need scaffolding.  We will continue to push forward as a team of equal individual contributors - leading by the power of our individual ideas and individually earned credibility -- if anyone wishes to follow.

If you are still interested in my opinion as an individual, you now have it.  :)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 06:35:48 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #142 on: December 09, 2014, 06:29:53 am »
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 06:31:51 am by Riverhead »

Offline fuzzy

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #143 on: December 09, 2014, 06:30:52 am »
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

 +5%

WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #144 on: December 09, 2014, 06:33:31 am »
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

"new coin" - Nope, simply a badly needed upgrade to the protocol. The current PoW chain is practically dead and the upgrade will not modify the allocation in any form. If AGS holders decided to create a DPoS chain, would we then insist that they also sharedrop PTS? Of course not. Both PTS and AGS are benefactors of DPoS and neither is a "future DAC". The social consensus would be violated if we transferred ownership of AGS to PTS or vice versa. They represent different demographics and are equal and separate prongs of the social consensus.

"new people" - I3 transferred custodianship of PTS long, long ago and this is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly, there is no name change yet. After the upgrade the community will decide the path to take on rebranding. It is necessary to prevent confusion between PTS and BTS and I believe would be performed even if we had a healthy PTS chain and no upgrade were necessary.

You are utilizing the BTS Toolkit which was made possible by AGS donations, and refusing to honour AGS. You don't see the irony when you expect others to sharedrop on the DPoS PTS but yourself are intent on breaking the consensus?

If a project uses BTS toolkit, it has to follow the social consensus. Else the community should actively discourage and shun the project. This would be a great example to show what breaking the consensus and using the toolkit for free would do to a project. If this DPoS PTS succeeds, it would encourage other developers to not follow the consensus either.

sumantso

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #145 on: December 09, 2014, 06:36:00 am »
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".

We don't want them to just upgrade, we want them to upgrade and give us something in return for using the toolkit. This will simply show that they, or indeed anybody, need to give anything.

Instead of dreaming of a DPoS BTC, I would prefer if we can just sneak through with BitBTS.

Offline fuzzy

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #146 on: December 09, 2014, 06:39:09 am »
I mentioned in the dry run thread but this place is appropriate.

Since you are using the BTS toolkit to make your DPoS PTS, you should honour the social consensus and award at least 10% to AGS. If you don't you are starting off by breaking it itself and setting an example.

Couldn't agree with you more! This is a new coin, new people running it, new code (ulitmately it won't even be called Bitshares PTS) AND they used the BTS toolkit to make it, therefore they should honor the social consensus and give AGS 10%.

"new coin" - Nope, simply a badly needed upgrade to the protocol. The current PoW chain is practically dead and the upgrade will not modify the allocation in any form. If AGS holders decided to create a DPoS chain, would we then insist that they also sharedrop PTS? Of course not. Both PTS and AGS are benefactors of DPoS and neither is a "future DAC". The social consensus would be violated if we transferred ownership of AGS to PTS or vice versa. They represent different demographics and are equal and separate prongs of the social consensus.

"new people" - I3 transferred custodianship of PTS long, long ago and this is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly, there is no name change yet. After the upgrade the community will decide the path to take on rebranding. It is necessary to prevent confusion between PTS and BTS and I believe would be performed even if we had a healthy PTS chain and no upgrade were necessary.

You are utilizing the BTS Toolkit which was made possible by AGS donations, and refusing to honour AGS. You don't see the irony when you expect others to sharedrop on the DPoS PTS but yourself are intent on breaking the consensus?

If a project uses BTS toolkit, it has to follow the social consensus. Else the community should actively discourage and shun the project. This would be a great example to show what breaking the consensus and using the toolkit for free would do to a project. If this DPoS PTS succeeds, it would encourage other developers to not follow the consensus either.

This is precisely the argument that pushes me toward wanting to merge PTS/AGS into a new sharedropping token.  I think this makes it FAR simpler overall.  I am also not wholly in agreement with alphabar that changing to adapt to strongly voiced opinions is necessarily a bad thing.  Sure consistency is helpful in the shortterm...but if we exist in a space where adapting is necessary and we have a technology that is highly political by nature--we should not shy away from listening to one another and we should not be afraid to change when deemed absolutely necessary. 

With that said, there ARE some merits to the counter argument. 
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Offline Stan

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #147 on: December 09, 2014, 06:46:45 am »
You are utilizing the BTS Toolkit which was made possible by AGS donations, and refusing to honour AGS. You don't see the irony when you expect others to sharedrop on the DPoS PTS but yourself are intent on breaking the consensus?

If a project uses BTS toolkit, it has to follow the social consensus. Else the community should actively discourage and shun the project. This would be a great example to show what breaking the consensus and using the toolkit for free would do to a project. If this DPoS PTS succeeds, it would encourage other developers to not follow the consensus either.

I concede that this is also a valid perspective.  Now let us work together as a community to establish a consensus and set a good example for all future developers who may look to this as the reference precedent.

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

sumantso

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #148 on: December 09, 2014, 06:48:20 am »
You are utilizing the BTS Toolkit which was made possible by AGS donations, and refusing to honour AGS. You don't see the irony when you expect others to sharedrop on the DPoS PTS but yourself are intent on breaking the consensus?

If a project uses BTS toolkit, it has to follow the social consensus. Else the community should actively discourage and shun the project. This would be a great example to show what breaking the consensus and using the toolkit for free would do to a project. If this DPoS PTS succeeds, it would encourage other developers to not follow the consensus either.

I concede that this is also a valid perspective.  Now let us work together as a community to establish a consensus and set a good example for all future developers who may look to this as the reference precedent.

I was going to suggest that. Both AGS and PTSers represent the sharedrop group which follow BTS. Unifying them gives a wider representation and makes it tempting for future developers to sharedrop on.

I would even extend it to make it 30-40% PTS, 30-40% AGS and distribute the remaining among other 2.0 projects like NXT, XCP, NEM etc. The NEM shareholder list in particular is quite interesting as it covers most of the Bitcointalk group.

In this way we make it easy for any developer to have an easy sharedrop target. I would even go ahead and ditch the 20% and ask for 'only' 10% to fulfill the social consensus. The idea is to make this as attractive as possible as a sharedrop target and would benefit us all in the long run.

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #149 on: December 09, 2014, 06:51:08 am »
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".

We don't want them to just upgrade, we want them to upgrade and give us something in return for using the toolkit. This will simply show that they, or indeed anybody, need to give anything.

Instead of dreaming of a DPoS BTC, I would prefer if we can just sneak through with BitBTS.
The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS. So now PTS needs to fund BTS again? I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play.

Secondly the notion of bitPTS belies the very meaning of PTS.