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Offline toast

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2014, 01:08:48 AM »
Tony has a point that it is a different coin until there is consensus otherwise.

I'm confident alphabar can change the consensus. Not convinced that it's very valuable or worth precious dev hours, but that's a different conversation.

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Offline fran2k

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2014, 01:33:03 AM »
"Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it."
     If this was the intent of I3 then why did they very deliberately kill BitsharesPTS in order to merge it's value into BTS?

"From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it." 
     You want to start a new social consensus blockchain based on the Bitshares toolkit and airdrop on former PTS holders..that's it in a nutshell. That part I have no problem with. The problem is you state that future DAC's using the Bitshares toolkit are "invited" to honor your new social consensus but why would they? Because you have fraudulently called yourself the "new" BitsharesPTS. This looks like a copy and paste, pump and dump trading off a dead coin's brand and hijacked name...crypto coat-tail riding. And your response it "there's no other way to do it?".

"You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks."
     THAT WAS THE INTENTION. That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

"Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective."
    That's like saying "here, I'm going to give you some free crypto in my new unrelated blockchain and you should take it because it's mandatory from an economic perspective." Try to understand, you are not updating PTS, PTS is DEAD..thus you are not adding value to it, because it no longer exists. It's value has been transferred to BTS. You are squatting on the name.

One final thing. You used the Bitshares toolkit to make your blockchain but are you honoring AGS holders? If not, you are violating the social consensus you purport to uphold.

Thanks, mostly agree also on that.
Witness: rmglab /// Buenos Aires BTS Meetup http://www.meetup.com/es-ES/BitSharesBA/ /// [old BTS 1.0 chain] Delegate bitshares-argentina (ex argentina-marketing-matt608) Thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15781.0.html

Offline islandking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2014, 01:35:33 AM »
Someone is buying up the entire orderbook for PTS.  Looks like someone is bullish.
I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party. - Satoshi

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2014, 01:46:10 AM »
Someone is buying up the entire orderbook for PTS.  Looks like someone is bullish.

I think PTS is quite slow so anybody who wants to sell at these prices will probably be waiting a while to get PTS onto bter to sell, so I don't know if these prices will be maintained. I'm not a seller though.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 01:57:12 AM by Empirical1.1 »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2014, 02:05:37 AM »
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.

Ok, I think I understand what you are saying now. Unfortunately there is no mechanism for actually "killing" a decentralized currency (this is by design). Proof of burn is an interesting concept, but ultimately infeasible for a hard fork upgrade (same reason why it was not used in creating BTS or in any hard fork upgrade of any crypto ever). For example, I could create delegates and start mining on the old BTSX chain relatively easily today but that doesn't mean that BTSX isn't dead. Consensus is what ultimately "kills" the coin - just like it did with the dozen different BTSX "coins" before BTS. Fortunately for us, PTS is literally dying on its own, so it probably doesn't need any help from us.

Since you are a PTS holder I imagine you will be quite happy with the result. ;)

Offline islandking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2014, 02:10:16 AM »
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.

Ok, I think I understand what you are saying now. Unfortunately there is no mechanism for actually "killing" a decentralized currency (this is by design). Proof of burn is an interesting concept, but ultimately infeasible for a hard fork upgrade (same reason why it was not used in creating BTS or in any hard fork upgrade of any crypto ever). For example, I could create delegates and start mining on the old BTSX chain relatively easily today but that doesn't mean that BTSX isn't dead. Consensus is what ultimately "kills" the coin - just like it did with the dozen different BTSX "coins" before BTS. Fortunately for us, PTS is literally dying on its own, so it probably doesn't need any help from us.

Since you are a PTS holder I imagine you will be quite happy with the result. ;)

Is 190 too high for PTS or does it have potential to go higher?
I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party. - Satoshi

Offline ticklebiscuit

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2014, 02:24:27 AM »
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?

should also be the "evolution of crypto-equities" instead of "the evolution of money".  Nice site overall though.


Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Yep. I think they should merge the PTS and AGS and cut the supply in half.  Make is a Berkshire Hathaway it far more valuable and thereby fixing the issues ags holders have with this.  Best way to go.
It ties up every loose end you guys have and attracts wealthy crypto investors because it is a great mechanism for diversification by default for basic investors and it is a new frontier for crypto trading.

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2014, 02:38:13 AM »
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?

should also be the "evolution of crypto-equities" instead of "the evolution of money".  Nice site overall though.


Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Yep. I think they should merge the PTS and AGS and cut the supply in half.  Make is a Berkshire Hathaway it far more valuable and thereby fixing the issues ags holders have with this.  Best way to go.
It ties up every loose end you guys have and attracts wealthy crypto investors because it is a great mechanism for diversification by default for basic investors and it is a new frontier for crypto trading.

AGS is still there exactly as it was for anyone who finds value in that demographic. PTS DPOS is just a 100% snapshot of a dying PTS POW. Whether many third parties want to honour it with snapshots will have to be seen. The PTS price certainly seems to be reacting positively to it, though there were not major sell walls before.

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2014, 04:07:39 AM »

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

zerosum

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2014, 04:21:13 AM »

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2014, 04:34:02 AM »

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?

A bit of both I guess. The effort of PTS to change over to DPoS had me thinking about how BTC would change over. We all want to see that happen but how would that actually work?

I'm guessing it would be a fork with pages and pages on bitcointalk just like this thread of the diehards saying you can start a new coin on DPoS but don't call it Bitcoin. So who would have to weigh in to sway the community? Would Gavin be enough? What about all five of the core devs? What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?

The bottom line is that an upgrade to a crypto is like any other software upgrade. Anyone can still run Windows 98 and Office 97. I think the big difference is that Microsoft is recognized as the owner and sole feature developer. Who owns a crypto?

« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 04:44:09 AM by Riverhead »

Offline onceuponatime

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2014, 04:41:26 AM »

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?

A bit of both I guess. The effort of PTS to change over to DPoS had me thinking about how BTC would change over. We all want to see that happen but how would that actually work?

I'm guessing it would be a fork with pages and pages on bitcointalk just like this thread of the diehards saying you can start a new coin on DPoS but don't call it Bitcoin. So who would have to weigh in to sway the community? Would Gavin be enough? What about all five of the core devs? What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?

The bottom line is that an upgrade to a crypto is like any other software upgrade. Anyone can still run Windows 98 and Office 97. I think the big difference is that Microsoft is recognized as the owner and sole feature developer. Who owns a crypto?

Tony alsready told you:

It as all lies - it is not "Same coin, same name, same allocation, same exchanges, with only one simple upgrade.'

It is a share drop on my coin - PTS.

Thanks, btw.

Offline slacking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2014, 05:02:27 AM »
"What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?"

Kind of like how we now are going to have 2 PTS chains? BitsharesPTS and (confusingly) another BitsharesPTS. Which one should benefit from social consensus sharedrops? What if I decide to come along and fork the new BitsharesPTS, would you expect me to change the name? Would I be entitled to announce that it's a mandatory upgrade? Would I be entitled to market it as the recipient of all future sharedrops?

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2014, 05:09:48 AM »
"What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?"

Kind of like how we now are going to have 2 PTS chains? BitsharesPTS and (confusingly) another BitsharesPTS. Which one should benefit from social consensus sharedrops? What if I decide to come along and fork the new BitsharesPTS, would you expect me to change the name? Would I be entitled to announce that it's a mandatory upgrade? Would I be entitled to market it as the recipient of all future sharedrops?
Indeed, those are the questions I'm asking.

Is it the case that a crypto cannot change its consensus algorithm? Is Bitcoin doomed to PoW forever?

Sent from my Timex Sinclair.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 05:11:57 AM by Riverhead »

Offline slacking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2014, 05:42:39 AM »
"What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?"

Kind of like how we now are going to have 2 PTS chains? BitsharesPTS and (confusingly) another BitsharesPTS. Which one should benefit from social consensus sharedrops? What if I decide to come along and fork the new BitsharesPTS, would you expect me to change the name? Would I be entitled to announce that it's a mandatory upgrade? Would I be entitled to market it as the recipient of all future sharedrops?
Indeed, those are the questions I'm asking.

Is it the case that a crypto cannot change its consensus algorithm? Is Bitcoin doomed to PoW forever?

Sent from my Timex Sinclair.

Are you really asking the question or just lamenting the fact someone can't fork a crypto, change all the core features, change the developers and then announce arbitrarily that it's a mandatory upgrade? I think it's been stated over and over, even Bytemaster agrees, change the name UPFRONT not after the fact or convince everyone to burn the original PTS to launch the new one.

 

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