Author Topic: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement  (Read 98345 times)

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Offline svk

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #150 on: December 09, 2014, 07:20:44 am »
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".

We don't want them to just upgrade, we want them to upgrade and give us something in return for using the toolkit. This will simply show that they, or indeed anybody, need to give anything.

Instead of dreaming of a DPoS BTC, I would prefer if we can just sneak through with BitBTS.
The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS. So now PTS needs to fund BTS again? I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play.

Secondly the notion of bitPTS belies the very meaning of PTS.
Agreed, enough with the greed already and just accept this for what it is: a transfer of PTS to a new technology.

I don't recall seeing any hostility to this when it was Stan announcing the possibility of doing so, and I don't think anyone was clamoring for that PTS 2.0 to sharedrop on AGS.

This feels to me like hostility towards alphabar disguised as concern for the social consensus. Alphabar, PC and and cube are doing all this work for free with with no immediate gain to themselves, remember they're not changing the allocations here so there are no dev funds etc. I for one am grateful that someone stepped up to resurrect PTS!
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zerosum

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #151 on: December 09, 2014, 07:21:33 am »
If we ever hope to persuade BTC to upgrade to DPoS this needs to go smoothly. It can either be referenced as a success story by the proponents of the tool kit or as an example for the BTC faithful to point at and laugh at the notion of upgrading a coin to a better consensus algorithm.

To quote Stan quoting Brain, "Think bigger, Pinky".

We don't want them to just upgrade, we want them to upgrade and give us something in return for using the toolkit. This will simply show that they, or indeed anybody, need to give anything.

Instead of dreaming of a DPoS BTC, I would prefer if we can just sneak through with BitBTS.
The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS. So now PTS needs to fund BTS again? I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play.

Secondly the notion of bitPTS belies the very meaning of PTS.

I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play. The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS only.

PTS was returned and never used... PTS was one of the great ideas of (Stan and CH )'s that never worked. You are of course allowed to believe whatever you feel like.


Offline Stan

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #152 on: December 09, 2014, 07:48:50 am »

I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play. The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS only.

PTS was returned and never used... PTS was one of the great ideas of (Stan and CH )'s that never worked. You are of course allowed to believe whatever you feel like.

Agree with your first point, but not with your second. 

PTS worked wonderfully.  Beyond our wildest expectations.  It launched an industry and united this community.  While those PTS were in our possession they laid golden eggs!  Those DACling eggs continue to fund development to this day.  And don't forget that PTS has been honored by a half-dozen other DACs proving the essential BitShares Sharedrop Theory (that you didn't need mining to get a fair AND demographically targeted distribution.)  Without sharedrop theory we would still need mining as the only acceptable way to distribute a new DAC's shares!   And there are still more benefits that will become clear to all in time.  Returning the PTS when we did maximized their utility to the cause.  It was the perfect spiked football in the end zone.

It has been and will continue to be (all modesty aside) an unexpectedly potent innovation.  :)

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline fuzzy

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #153 on: December 09, 2014, 08:08:21 am »

I feel these arguments are based more on people's reallocation of their portfolio than a genuine sense of justice and fair play. The tool kit was built with funds from PTS and AGS only.

PTS was returned and never used... PTS was one of the great ideas of (Stan and CH )'s that never worked. You are of course allowed to believe whatever you feel like.

Agree with your first point, but not with your second. 

PTS worked wonderfully.  Beyond our wildest expectations.  It launched an industry and united this community.  While those PTS were in our possession they laid golden eggs!  Those DACling eggs continue to fund development to this day.  And don't forget that PTS has been honored by a half-dozen other DACs proving the essential BitShares Sharedrop Theory (that you didn't need mining to get a fair AND demographically targeted distribution.)  Without sharedrop theory we would still need mining as the only acceptable way to distribute a new DAC's shares!   And there are still more benefits that will become clear to all in time.  Returning the PTS when we did maximized their utility to the cause.  It was the perfect spiked football in the end zone.

It has been and will continue to be (all modesty aside) an unexpectedly potent innovation.  :)


What I find funny is that I see very little anger or hostility from AGS holders...who I believe take the brunt of the hit.  Whereas PTS is liquid and traded on open markets, and thus can stay in the public mind, AGS will likely fade away over time.  Yet I do not hear any of them complaining...or at least it is very minimal. 

A DPOS-based PTS chain is, to me, a wonderful idea.  However I do still wonder about the point that the Chinese community made about the profitability of running these delegates.  Still trying to figure that one out.
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Offline FreeTrade

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #154 on: December 09, 2014, 08:17:39 am »
A DPOS-based PTS chain is, to me, a wonderful idea.  However I do still wonder about the point that the Chinese community made about the profitability of running these delegates.  Still trying to figure that one out.

I think the devs are ideologically committed to 0% inflation - perhaps a reaction to BitShares moving to an inflationary model.
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #155 on: December 09, 2014, 09:26:54 am »
Quote
I  think it is a new coin rather than update of PTS

I think that as well. But if the new PTS was sharedropping to PTS/BTS then it wouldn't be just a new coin. The old PTS helped the development of BTS. The new PTS if dropped  to BTS will help boosting BTS. As far as I am concerned I don't see any value in obtaining the new PTS instead of Sparkle. But if the new PTS was airdropping more than 35% to BTS then that would change the game for sparkle and the new PTS would have much more greater acceptance since it is developed by long term members  of this community rather sparkle which is developed by a new member in here. But for the time sparkle appears more attractive.just my 2bts...

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #156 on: December 09, 2014, 12:08:41 pm »

BTS is a stand alone DAC. It uses the tool kit and share dropped PTS/AGS (a few times) to honor the social consensus. To me BTS is square with PTS/AGS and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.

If you want to keep getting your beak wet from those that adopt the tool kit then buy PTS like before. We can't just keep demanding share drops to whatever great new project that core devs are working on and we decide to reallocate our portfolio to. Yes BTS is contributing a lot to the toolkit but so may future DACs.

The bigger picture here is not about previous owners of PTS getting handouts or not. It's about setting a precedent. Can an existing PoW token adopt the toolkit, honor the PTS/AGS social contract, and still be considered the same token?

If the answer is yes than we will see a lot more people willing to adopt the toolkit and get out of mining. If the answer is no they'll fork the toolkit anyway and go on their merry way.

IMHO PTS has more than paid its dues to the toolkit and converting PTS to the toolkit it helped create just seems like a natural progression.

P.s: As a side note, reading through my previous posts, I seem to come off as angry or upset with some members of the community. I'm not and apologize I come off this way. It's just something I'm passionate about and enjoy the spirited conversation cutting the path to the future. Everyone here is passionate too and are some of the greatest minds in the industry.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 12:16:45 pm by Riverhead »

Offline fuzzy

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #157 on: December 09, 2014, 12:16:56 pm »

BTS is a stand alone DAC. It uses the tool kit and share dropped PTS/AGS (a few times) to honor the social consensus. To me BTS is square with PTS/AGS and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.

If you want to keep getting your beak wet from those that adopt the tool kit then buy PTS like before. We can't just keep demanding share drops to whatever great new project that core devs are working on and we decide to reallocate our portfolio to. Yes BTS is contributing a lot to the toolkit but so may future DACs.

The bigger picture here is not about previous owners of PTS getting handouts or not. It's about setting a precedent. Can an existing PoW token adopt the toolkit, honor the PTS/AGS social contract, and still be considered the same token?

If the answer is yes than we will see a lot more people willing to adopt the toolkit and get out of mining. If the answer is no they'll fork the toolkit anyway and go on their merry way.

IMHO PTS has more than paid its dues to the toolkit and converting PTS to the toolkit it helped create just seems like a natural progression.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.   +5%

We really need to think in terms of a broader vision here.  What good is it to get sharedropped tokens that lose all credibility because the community can't/won't form a consensus around them?  I understand we will never get 100% of the people, but I am honestly kind of stunned to see how many people think BTS should be sharedropped on here (and I hold most of my value in BTS!). 

What we are planning with PTS will substantially help BTS indirectly anyway so I am 110% for simply converting ownership of the DPOS version of PTS directly to the current owners of the POW PTS. 
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sumantso

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #158 on: December 09, 2014, 12:28:00 pm »
I don't think BTS should be sharedropped on, but AGS certainly should. Otherwise you're setting a clear precedent.

The easiest way out would've been to create a 50/50 PTS/AGS sharedrop token, else just award 10% to AGS.

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #159 on: December 09, 2014, 01:06:55 pm »
I don't think BTS should be sharedropped on, but AGS certainly should. Otherwise you're setting a clear precedent.


I'll have to think about this one, it's a fair point.

It would have to be an inflationary drop though as all the current PTS are spoken for. There is merit to the idea that if PTS is upgrading to DPoS it should honor PTS/AGS like anyone else wanting to upgrade to the toolkit. Obviously the PTS part is intrinsic to the upgrade but the AGS portion of the social contract needs to be squared.

For the record my crypto holdings are roughly:
97.8% BTS
2.2% PTS
0% AGS

Offline kingslanding

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #160 on: December 09, 2014, 03:25:38 pm »
Many AGS holders have already been generously "airdropped" when I3 returned thousands of PTS.  DPOS PTS is an upgrade; the initial intent of PTS hasn't changed at all.  It has & will still support BTS.  Growth in PTS is a calling card for BTS.
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Tuck Fheman

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #161 on: December 10, 2014, 02:39:55 am »
... I am 110% for simply converting ownership of the DPOS version of PTS directly to the current owners of the POW PTS.

 +5% ... but, I wouldn't complain if I received some for muh AGS as well.

Tuck Fheman

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #162 on: December 10, 2014, 02:47:28 am »
What I find funny is that I see very little anger or hostility from AGS holders

We're too busy hodling I guess.  Is there really anything else we AGS hodlers can do?

Nope. Those coins were flipped into the wishing well long ago. Anything that comes back now is considered a gift to me personally. One of my wishes was already fulfilled with BitShares.

Now, can we go ahead and fulfill my other wish of ending the Fed and stop discussing who gets what for what?

There's some hostility for you!

 :P

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #163 on: December 10, 2014, 02:50:47 am »
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

Offline slacking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #164 on: December 10, 2014, 04:22:36 am »
Is it a new Fed or an update? >:D

It's just some guy named "Fed" and he's telling everybody his dollar is a mandatory upgrade.