Author Topic: You guys don't understand devshares.  (Read 36044 times)

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julian1

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Quote
Would you be angry if the devs coordinated a massive dump to test out undercollateralization?
DON'T HOLD DEVSHARES!

Would you be angry if the devs discovered and exploited a bug in DVS which permanently brought down the network and forced a reset?
DON'T HOLD DEVSHARES!

Would you be angry if the devs reset the network and allocated 100% to Vikram?
DON'T HOLD DEVSHARES!
The counter argument is that, devshares will be the platform that gets exposed to the best new Bitshares features first (if I understand the intention of a release-candidate/test platform correctly). 

Someone outside the community who hears about some new feature development in a public press-release for example, and wants to get involved, is going to be told that it's not in Bitshares BTS yet but is in devshares.

The first thing they will want to know is how to acquire devshares.
 
 Also, If Bitshares' developers are paid out of BTS contributions through delegate inflation, then it should be BTS holders that are the recipient of sharedrops irrespective of the perceived value. Dropping to PTS gives PTS a lot symbolic legitimacy when BTS holders already paid to acquire them, at least that seems to be the common understanding.

Offline toast

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The way I recall it is we paid for the merge with vote. This whole mess started when it was said that VOTE could potentially outgrow BTS. And since VOTE would have most of the BTS features, it could make BTS worthless. This was the main reason for the merger, and thus share dropping to AGS/PTS

Yes we paid 3% for VOTE.

The problem is the other 7%/7% we paid for AGS/PTS, and then after we paid, the social consensus didnt change.

Social consensus still changed - do you mean to say Dan didn't follow it?
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Offline Ander

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The way I recall it is we paid for the merge with vote. This whole mess started when it was said that VOTE could potentially outgrow BTS. And since VOTE would have most of the BTS features, it could make BTS worthless. This was the main reason for the merger, and thus share dropping to AGS/PTS

Yes we paid 3% for VOTE.

The problem is the other 7%/7% we paid for AGS/PTS, and then after we paid, the social consensus didnt change.
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Offline graffenwalder

I really don't understand why people complaining about the allocation of something that has absolutely no value other than testing like devshares. This could have been airdroped to any coin...To my understanding Devshares have no value.

It has symbolic value.

It shows that the devs still consider PTS/AGS to be things to sharedrop on.  But we thought that the reason we were giving 7% of BTS to AGs and PTS in the merger was so that in the future, everyone would sharedrop to BTS instead.  And yes, I mean EVERYONE.    We thought that we were buying out the social consensus and replacing it with a new social consensus of sharedropping to BTS.


I would not have supported the merger if I had known how it would end up.  It turned into a betrayal of BTS holders.  We should only have merged with DNS and VOTE, not PTS/AGS imo.
PTS should be dead, and all sharedrops should go only to BTS in the future.  Our community is still fractured because this is not the case.  We were supposed to be buying community unity, and instead we bought betrayal.
How can BTS merge with VOTE? The only way to do this is by share dropping on PTS/AGS, also the DNS situation during the merger discussion is a reason to share drop to AGS/PTS

They can merge with vote by doing exactly what they did. 

The problem is that we also paid significantly more to merge with PTS/ATS, but then in the end DIDNT MERGE WITH THEM, because they didnt go away, and we didnt switch to sharedropping to BTS as a social consensus.  We ended up paying for nothing.
The way I recall it is we paid for the merge with vote. This whole mess started when it was said that VOTE could potentially outgrow BTS. And since VOTE would have most of the BTS features, it could make BTS worthless. This was the main reason for the merger, and thus share dropping to AGS/PTS

Offline Ander

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I really don't understand why people complaining about the allocation of something that has absolutely no value other than testing like devshares. This could have been airdroped to any coin...To my understanding Devshares have no value.

It has symbolic value.

It shows that the devs still consider PTS/AGS to be things to sharedrop on.  But we thought that the reason we were giving 7% of BTS to AGs and PTS in the merger was so that in the future, everyone would sharedrop to BTS instead.  And yes, I mean EVERYONE.    We thought that we were buying out the social consensus and replacing it with a new social consensus of sharedropping to BTS.


I would not have supported the merger if I had known how it would end up.  It turned into a betrayal of BTS holders.  We should only have merged with DNS and VOTE, not PTS/AGS imo.
PTS should be dead, and all sharedrops should go only to BTS in the future.  Our community is still fractured because this is not the case.  We were supposed to be buying community unity, and instead we bought betrayal.
How can BTS merge with VOTE? The only way to do this is by share dropping on PTS/AGS, also the DNS situation during the merger discussion is a reason to share drop to AGS/PTS

They can merge with vote by doing exactly what they did. 

The problem is that we also paid significantly more to merge with PTS/ATS, but then in the end DIDNT MERGE WITH THEM, because they didnt go away, and we didnt switch to sharedropping to BTS as a social consensus.  We ended up paying for nothing.
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Offline graffenwalder

I really don't understand why people complaining about the allocation of something that has absolutely no value other than testing like devshares. This could have been airdroped to any coin...To my understanding Devshares have no value.

It has symbolic value.

It shows that the devs still consider PTS/AGS to be things to sharedrop on.  But we thought that the reason we were giving 7% of BTS to AGs and PTS in the merger was so that in the future, everyone would sharedrop to BTS instead.  And yes, I mean EVERYONE.    We thought that we were buying out the social consensus and replacing it with a new social consensus of sharedropping to BTS.


I would not have supported the merger if I had known how it would end up.  It turned into a betrayal of BTS holders.  We should only have merged with DNS and VOTE, not PTS/AGS imo.
PTS should be dead, and all sharedrops should go only to BTS in the future.  Our community is still fractured because this is not the case.  We were supposed to be buying community unity, and instead we bought betrayal.
How can BTS merge with VOTE? The only way to do this is by share dropping on PTS/AGS, also the DNS situation during the merger discussion is a reason to share drop to AGS/PTS

Offline nomoreheroes7

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I really don't understand why people complaining about the allocation of something that has absolutely no value other than testing like devshares. This could have been airdroped to any coin...To my understanding Devshares have no value.

It has symbolic value.

It shows that the devs still consider PTS/AGS to be things to sharedrop on.  But we thought that the reason we were giving 7% of BTS to AGs and PTS in the merger was so that in the future, everyone would sharedrop to BTS instead.  And yes, I mean EVERYONE.    We thought that we were buying out the social consensus and replacing it with a new social consensus of sharedropping to BTS.


I would not have supported the merger if I had known how it would end up.  It turned into a betrayal of BTS holders.  We should only have merged with DNS and VOTE, not PTS/AGS imo.
PTS should be dead, and all sharedrops should go only to BTS in the future.  Our community is still fractured because this is not the case.  We were supposed to be buying community unity, and instead we bought betrayal.

 +5%  +5%  +5%

My thoughts exactly. I'm sure many others were under this same impression.

Offline Ander

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I really don't understand why people complaining about the allocation of something that has absolutely no value other than testing like devshares. This could have been airdroped to any coin...To my understanding Devshares have no value.

It has symbolic value.

It shows that the devs still consider PTS/AGS to be things to sharedrop on.  But we thought that the reason we were giving 7% of BTS to AGs and PTS in the merger was so that in the future, everyone would sharedrop to BTS instead.  And yes, I mean EVERYONE.    We thought that we were buying out the social consensus and replacing it with a new social consensus of sharedropping to BTS.


I would not have supported the merger if I had known how it would end up.  It turned into a betrayal of BTS holders.  We should only have merged with DNS and VOTE, not PTS/AGS imo.
PTS should be dead, and all sharedrops should go only to BTS in the future.  Our community is still fractured because this is not the case.  We were supposed to be buying community unity, and instead we bought betrayal.



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Offline Empirical1.1

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It's irrelevant whether DVS is worth $0.01

It's the principal of BTS or devs being seen to direct anything at post 11/05 PTS.

This is my issue too. It's about respect, and about whether or not BTS delegates actually work for BTS and can be trusted by stakeholders to have their best interests in mind.

pre OR post PTS shouldn't get them, since it is BTS ONLY who will have to pay for whatever minuscule value DVS gets through dilution of OUR funds. PTS/AGS already diluted us 25% in an agreement I think was very fair. There is no need to continue pushing through wealth transfers from us to them, in any shape or form, no matter the amount. They already received enough. It's simply exhausting that as a stakeholder you have to be on guard against this kind of stuff even now, months later. It should be a closed chapter.

"What's the next thing that our delegates will give to PTS/AGS?" This is the question that makes people paranoid.

Edit: honoring the 11/5 snapshot is also fair since that was what originally announced. The current sharedrop to the undead PTS just must be undone. Its a question of avoiding a new integrity crisis and split of the community. No matter how good our tech is we will not survive if we just keep having PR blunder after PR blunder like this.

It's unfortunate as the PR blunders over a low/no value DVS overshadows potentially positive development news of BitShares Object Graph https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12647.0



Offline James212

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Me and several Chinese translators and consultants were blaming ourselves at first after seeing stan's post about how mis-translation can mislead people into wrong conclusions .  We though we made a huge mistake to mislead the entire Chinese community about the significance of 11.05 snapshot . It's a relieve to find out that we didn't .

But that begs to a new question , how can we avoid that in the future ?

We can't just keep dancing around things after the facts , right ?

Everybody , Please keep checking with me about things like this before making any decisions you might think would be a problem ,  since I have a good memory and connection of a large community . I can even be the middle man of your own dev team .

 +5%. Wildpig, I don't know much about you or your capabilities at Public Relations (PR), but you are on the right track. It is clear that there needs to be some strategic Public Relations oversight on what the Devs do that can effect stakeholders and the general market. .   This is not the first time (or the second time) that we have had PR train wrecks. Enough already.


Disclosure: by means of owning the legacy BitsharesPTS, I currently own DPOS PTS
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 07:19:21 pm by James212 »
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Offline mf-tzo

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I really don't understand why people complaining about the allocation of something that has absolutely no value other than testing like devshares. This could have been airdroped to any coin...To my understanding Devshares have no value.

Just claim them and dump them the same time so at least we can test what happens when everyone is dumping the same time (1st important thing to test).
Then the devs can use them to test all the other important things that need to test.

How many of you have you claimed LTS anyway? LTS was something very interesting, I wanted to claim them just to play some lotto but I didn't because I didn't want to expose my keys to a 3rd party wallet (very unfortunate that this didn't work as planned by the way..).  Are you seriously going to expose your keys to claim your devshares to an experimental wallet just to sell them for a minimal amount of $$?? Seriously??

Devshares will be claimed from people who actually have the tech knowledge and can actually help the devs. At least this is how I understand the whole devshares but I may be wrong again..

Offline James212

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we fully understand DVS .
We just don't understand why people keep saying "we never said 11.05 was supposed to snapshot for devshares " .
Because , they did said it .

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10608.0

read the bottom of the OP , then you'll know what kind of issue we're talking about here .

 +5%

Toast, its not that we think DevShares will become super valuable, its the fact that you and Dan said that the merger was the last official snapshot for PTS. It is a violation of your promise to the shareholders. People can't trust the developers of Bitshares if they don't keep their word to the shareholders.

This is why the public moves that Devs make should always first be consulted by the "experts" in PR.  Devs, as briliant as they are do not/ can not always relate to the ordinary market and its perception.   The facts may actually be with Toast and the other Devs in this case, but perception is not.  Folks, when it comes to the maket value of our project and what we are doing here perception is everything.   

Disclosure: by means of owning the legacy BitsharesPTS, I currently own DPOS PTS
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 07:18:47 pm by James212 »
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Offline Rune

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It's irrelevant whether DVS is worth $0.01

It's the principal of BTS or devs being seen to direct anything at post 11/05 PTS.

This is my issue too. It's about respect, and about whether or not BTS delegates actually work for BTS and can be trusted by stakeholders to have their best interests in mind.

pre OR post PTS shouldn't get them, since it is BTS ONLY who will have to pay for whatever minuscule value DVS gets through dilution of OUR funds. PTS/AGS already diluted us 25% in an agreement I think was very fair. There is no need to continue pushing through wealth transfers from us to them, in any shape or form, no matter the amount. They already received enough. It's simply exhausting that as a stakeholder you have to be on guard against this kind of stuff even now, months later. It should be a closed chapter.

"What's the next thing that our delegates will give to PTS/AGS?" This is the question that makes people paranoid.

Edit: honoring the 11/5 snapshot is also fair since that was what originally announced. The current sharedrop to the undead PTS just must be undone. Its a question of avoiding a new integrity crisis and split of the community. No matter how good our tech is we will not survive if we just keep having PR blunder after PR blunder like this.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 06:54:26 pm by Rune »

sumantso

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Coming back to Devshares itself, its going to have some value. Now, how much value is anybody's guess - its uncharted waters. In worse case scenario DevUSD, DevBTC etc may actually find traction in the market. Eitherway, where's the value going to come from? From BTS, and its fine as we hope the benefit of a test network will create more value, but why give that value to others too? It makes absolutely no sense.

A 1:1 drop on BTS would've ensured that regardless of what value DVS gains, we won't be losing anything. With the allocation, a clear channel has been opened up to transfer value outside. Stan keeps parroting his bigger demographic line, but didn't we just bring the PTSers by a 7% inflation?

Offline matt608

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From BM:
Quote
No one can execute a scam on the DevShares network because all such scams are deemed to be legitimate voluntary choices in a contract free world.

I just want to ask how that differs with BitShares? - a voluntary contract free world.  I disagree that something being voluntary means there can be no scams, example, fair ground attractions.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 09:35:04 pm by matt608 »