Blackwave Labs(黑潮实验室)/Excoin(是币交中心) Delegate Proposal

[sumantso]

And I do appreciate that, but the specific discussion in those quotes is more about how the system in place not does not offer the proper risk vs. reward to attract the type of contract worker that many in the community seem to desire.

Please understand that I'm trying to understand BTS and the delegate system better and not just trying to be a delegate. I think the system is very good but I also think there is a lot of room for improvement. As it is now I fear that the current system does not work to attract smaller independent contractors (which we do not see ourselves as) who don't already have stake in BTS, these people could be very beneficial to BTS future.

Smaller contractors have to show their proposal and that they can deliver. monsterer had already started work, and his delegate bid was then funded by the community. I feel its a fair system.

Its very much a work in progress. A couple of months back hiring like this was not even possible. If you follow the changes to the system since it was first conceived (where 90% was supposed to be mined), you'll see the dev team and community are constantly trying to come up with better solutions and are not afraid to radically change the protocol itself if necessary. What we are doing is unique and unprecedented, and it has to go through a lot of hits and misses before we get close to the ideal situation. Even now you will see quite a few proposals are there pondering about lowering the barrier to entry for both employees and block producers. I feel you're quite skeptical, but hopefully the network effect we can gain will help us ride out the misses and collect the hits.

In short, stick around, engage with the community and use your unique skills to provide solutions which you feel will benefit Bitshares.  When the open source API wrapper is completed (in 1-2 months), hopefully you will have a detailed proposal to work closely with us to benefit us both. 

[onceuponatime]

It is pretty flexible. Shareholders have the possibility to approve / disapprove any kind of proposal.

It really is not as flexible as you are claiming and you have not really provided proof to back up the claim. You just simply stated a known fact.

The initial investment you have to front is proportional to the delegate pay you set. So if you have a 10% delegate you only pay 1/10 of what you pay for a 100% delegate.

However for 200 USD a month what kind of contract worker are you expecting to hire? And you are still discounting the amount of time required for the independent contractor to make the proposal. And there is no guarantee they will get funded. The balance of risk vs reward is not worth it for most independent contracts who do not already have a large stake in BTS. Which goes back to my points made I earlier, to be fair I think improvements can fix the problems but I don't think right now you will not find many independent contracts eager to offer their services unless they already hold stake in BTS.

This discussion has been interesting.

However, in your case, I did offer to loan you the registration costs which you did not need to repay until elected. You didn't accept that offer.

And I do appreciate that, but the specific discussion in those quotes is more about how the system in place not does not offer the proper risk vs. reward to attract the type of contract worker that many in the community seem to desire.

Please understand that I'm trying to understand BTS and the delegate system better and not just trying to be a delegate. I think the system is very good but I also think there is a lot of room for improvement. As it is now I fear that the current system does not work to attract smaller independent contractors (which we do not see ourselves as) who don't already have stake in BTS, these people could be very beneficial to BTS future.

It's a work in progress. I attempt to apply tweaks/workarounds where I can. 

[Excoin]

It is pretty flexible. Shareholders have the possibility to approve / disapprove any kind of proposal.

It really is not as flexible as you are claiming and you have not really provided proof to back up the claim. You just simply stated a known fact.

The initial investment you have to front is proportional to the delegate pay you set. So if you have a 10% delegate you only pay 1/10 of what you pay for a 100% delegate.

However for 200 USD a month what kind of contract worker are you expecting to hire? And you are still discounting the amount of time required for the independent contractor to make the proposal. And there is no guarantee they will get funded. The balance of risk vs reward is not worth it for most independent contracts who do not already have a large stake in BTS. Which goes back to my points made I earlier, to be fair I think improvements can fix the problems but I don't think right now you will not find many independent contracts eager to offer their services unless they already hold stake in BTS.

This discussion has been interesting.

However, in your case, I did offer to loan you the registration costs which you did not need to repay until elected. You didn't accept that offer.

And I do appreciate that, but the specific discussion in those quotes is more about how the system in place not does not offer the proper risk vs. reward to attract the type of contract worker that many in the community seem to desire.

Please understand that I'm trying to understand BTS and the delegate system better and not just trying to be a delegate. I think the system is very good but I also think there is a lot of room for improvement. As it is now I fear that the current system does not work to attract smaller independent contractors (which we do not see ourselves as) who don't already have stake in BTS, these people could be very beneficial to BTS future.

[onceuponatime]

It is pretty flexible. Shareholders have the possibility to approve / disapprove any kind of proposal.

It really is not as flexible as you are claiming and you have not really provided proof to back up the claim. You just simply stated a known fact.

The initial investment you have to front is proportional to the delegate pay you set. So if you have a 10% delegate you only pay 1/10 of what you pay for a 100% delegate.

However for 200 USD a month what kind of contract worker are you expecting to hire? And you are still discounting the amount of time required for the independent contractor to make the proposal. And there is no guarantee they will get funded. The balance of risk vs reward is not worth it for most independent contracts who do not already have a large stake in BTS. Which goes back to my points made I earlier, to be fair I think improvements can fix the problems but I don't think right now you will not find many independent contracts eager to offer their services unless they already hold stake in BTS.

This discussion has been interesting.

However, in your case, I did offer to loan you the registration costs which you did not need to repay until elected. You didn't accept that offer.

[Excoin]

It is pretty flexible. Shareholders have the possibility to approve / disapprove any kind of proposal.

It really is not as flexible as you are claiming and you have not really provided proof to back up the claim. You just simply stated a known fact.

The initial investment you have to front is proportional to the delegate pay you set. So if you have a 10% delegate you only pay 1/10 of what you pay for a 100% delegate.

However for 200 USD a month what kind of contract worker are you expecting to hire? And you are still discounting the amount of time required for the independent contractor to make the proposal. And there is no guarantee they will get funded. The balance of risk vs reward is not worth it for most independent contracts who do not already have a large stake in BTS. Which goes back to my points made I earlier, to be fair I think improvements can fix the problems but I don't think right now you will not find many quality independent contracts eager to offer their services unless they already hold stake in BTS.

This discussion has been interesting.

[Excoin]

I appreciate your work. However, compared with BTS, Nubits is like a scam. If nubits  is also included on your exchange,  I doubt your sense of judgement and loyalty to BTS.

We are transparent in the fact that we have no loyalty to any specific piece of software and personally I think it detrimental to future progress to have religious-lke affilation to any particular software.

Blackwave Labs is focused on innovation and progress. To us the most important thing is the overall advancement of decentralized technology and cryptocurrency. We take the time to learn about the community, research the source code, examine the economics and we feel BTS is innovative.

If you are uncomfortable with working with people who don't share all the same opinions as you, you will quickly find yourself isolated from many talent people.

Edit: Also if you want to convince people that your opinion is the correct one, I would recommend that you back up your claims with arguments/reasoning. Hollow ad-hominem attacks are not professional and serve no purpose. Which as a board moderator you should know better and take care represent your community in a more professional manner.

[ripplexiaoshan]

I appreciate your work. However, compared with BTS, Nubits is like a scam. If nubits  is also included on your exchange,  I doubt your sense of judgement and loyalty to BTS.

[santaclause102]

An api wrapper is worth the cost. Once that is complete we can re-examine whether the delegate is still worth it, but for now we really should vote these guys in.

My judgement on that is weak.

is worth the cost

I think that is the whole issue: What I proposed here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12907.msg170470#msg170470 was a request for a rough estimate for the cost/time. We don't know what the costs are with an 100% delegate for an indefinite time.

[toast]

An api wrapper is worth the cost. Once that is complete we can re-examine whether the delegate is still worth it, but for now we really should vote these guys in.

[santaclause102]

While I believe this is an interesting concept, the DPOS system as it exists now is not designed for this type of recruitment or employment.

It is pretty flexible. Shareholders have the possibility to approve / disapprove any kind of proposal.

The initial investment you have to front is proportional to the delegate pay you set. So if you have a 10% delegate you only pay 1/10 of what you pay for a 100% delegate.

I also think it is worth pointing out that in my experience organizations whose work force is made up primarily of temporary contract workers the products they produce are of inferior quality. It does not give creative developers a platform to create, and most importantly it does not provide the security needed to take risks and fail.

I totally agree with that. Mastercoin is a prime example. That is why I am happy that all developers work full time for BitShares.
This is just my position: If you propose a 100% delegate for an indefinite time then just the API Wrapper is just not a very compelling deal.
But I am impressed by the professional way you approach things (hard to find) so I would be more than happy to check out any proposal you make!

This is why you find successful technology based companies like google giving employees paid free time to work on their own projects or Bell's famous Bell Labs being funded with no expectations beyond giving engineers the freedom and security to create. The rewards for sponsoring these sort of activities are often unpredictable and potentially highly profitable.

This is what a company can do when they dominate their market like Google does. This has been a great read to me on that matter http://www.wsj.com/articles/peter-thiel-competition-is-for-losers-1410535536

[Excoin]

It doesnt bother me whether you have nubits on your exchange.

This portion was primarily aimed at the response we got from the Chinese section, though there were a few members in this thread who also seemed to share a similar opinion.

And the ratio between dilution and long term advancement is relative and has to be efficient!

That is a truism, anything else would result in failure. We are not expecting or desire the BitShares community to fail, we believe the project is very creative and has a lot of potential.

Unfortunately I'm starting to suspect that the initial bubble and too little consideration given to initial fair distribution may end up causing the project to never reach its full potential. This analysis is not simply from reading the reception of our thread, but rather our general research on the DPOS system as it currently executed by this community.

That would be specific enough to measure your work. Compare this to how it would work with a normal company: You are in the role of a contract worker (API Wrapper) that has the potential to become a long term partner for other projects (gateway maybe). I would never hire a contract worker if he/she didn't detail what I listed above.

While I believe this is an interesting concept, the DPOS system as it exists now is not designed for this type of recruitment or employment.

To begin with in order for us to become a delegate we had to pay 885 USD up front with no guarantee our proposal would be accepted (and given the current number of delegates and the overall market cap we honestly did not expect for it to be).

In the current system, an independent contract worker would have to take on great risk for a commodity which many of the community will request is not liquidated. If in the rare event they are accepted, they have to wait a full two weeks before breaking even on their initial investment. This is not counting the amount of time necessary to campaign for the position in the first place, if that time is considered it could take a month to recover the costs of obtaining the position in the first place. Which may only last 2-3 months before being voted out by popular vote.

To an outsider this is not an attractive deal because the risk is not worth the reward. The system would have to see a lot of changes made for it to recruit people in the way you would like.

I also think it is worth pointing out that in my experience organizations whose work force is made up primarily of temporary contract workers the products they produce are of inferior quality. It does not give creative developers a platform to create, and most importantly it does not provide the security needed to take risks and fail.

This is why you find successful technology based companies like google giving employees paid free time to work on their own projects or Bell's famous Bell Labs being funded with no expectations beyond giving engineers the freedom and security to create. The rewards for sponsoring these sort of activities are often unpredictable and potentially highly profitable.

I still highly appreciate your presence here (!)

I appreciate being allowed the opportunity to engage the community and at the very least I hope we were able to make members of the community think critically about the current implementation and what it provides for.

In my opinion this is a mindset that Bitshares shareholders have to adopt to make their "company" work efficiently and efficiency is vastly important in a growth phase

In my opinion, during the early phase of a company you will need to make investments in infrastructure, secure good relationships with potential employees and generally build towards long term goals. The early phases of a business are risky, and investors expecting good dividends early risk stunting potential growth. It is the same reason you will find that Amazon operates at a loss but investors still flock to it.

For example, we have already invested much more time and money than the BTS 100% delegate is worth at this point, but we feel that shifting the opinion of the community is more valuable for the long term success of even the few thousand shares we hold or the larger investments we may or may not make.

[santaclause102]

It doesnt bother me whether you have nubits on your exchange. And the ratio between dilution and long term advancement is relative and has to be efficient!

Here is what I would wish for: Why don't you make an estimate that would include the following?
- What you want to do for the Bitshares community (you already said that: the API Wrapper).
- How many man hours you estimate it would take to accomplish this. 
- What your hourly rate is.
--> And therefore how much money (BTS) you need for it: For example: Two month, 100%.
Then you should state how you want to proceed when the Wrapper is done: Make a new suggestion to continue the 100% pay for achieving a new objective. Or reduce it to 3% definitely because you don't plan to do more than the API Wrapper.

That would be specific enough to measure your work. Compare this to how it would work with a normal company: You are in the role of a contract worker (API Wrapper) that has the potential to become a long term partner for other projects (gateway maybe). I would never hire a contract worker if he/she didn't detail what I listed above.

I still highly appreciate your presence here (!) since you seem to be capable of what you are doing but accountability and transparency is needed otherwise "Paid Delegates" doesnt work <- in my opinion this is a mindset that Bitshares shareholders have to adopt to make their "company" work efficiently and efficiency is vastly important in a growth phase (~artificial competition because of: no income but expenses).

[Excoin]

I think,  we don't want to give each a on-line BTS trading exchange set up pay100% Delegate? This is a very stupid idea

Or again,  we will give every claim to promote BTS people set up pay100% Delegate? I saw a lot of fraud in the staged

We can form a kind of atmosphere, to establish pay100% Delegate, register and open you are going to do, when after your success or achievement, and then ask you to vote

Also, the BM community share voting right, should not easily use, after must wait for community voting ends, and then consider whether it is necessary to vote, and vote should have a half-life


I'm against almost all of the pay100% Delegate,  including BM 


 

我们请求100%支付率，经过我们的计算，假设当前价格持续不变的话（这没法保证），收入大约会是2000美元。我们并不将受托人收入看成是付给我们的费用，倒不如说是补贴我们的部分成本，并以BTS股权的形式去缩小给开发团队所应得收入的差距。

我们并非业余的程序员，我们是行内专业人士，可以开发高质量的软件，并拥有已经被证实的资历。我们觉得我们提议的项目在BTS经济系统上具有积极意义，以及很高的价值，因此希望这些项目得到资助并保证它们可以完成得更快一点。

2000美元一个月是不足以雇佣一位高级程序员的。就像你买的任何东西一样，你一般得到三个特性中的两个：快速、便宜、高质量。如果你不觉得开发者的贡献值得社区去回报的话，那么你就很可能会发现围绕比特股的基础架构的发展逐渐地停滞，因为只有少数的早期用户会有动力去建立基础架构。

我们尝试成为一名受托人，很大程度上是为更加了解比特股和受托人制度。从目前来看，貌似早期的用家和大户会担心通胀影响到他们的投资。这显然是与比特股系统提供的优点相违背的。比特股有潜力成为一个革命性的工具，它可以回报和激励开发者（和其他人）去建造一个充满生机的加密货币生态系统。不过，如果比特股系统被那些担心短期利润而不是长远目标的早期投资者限制的话，这个项目永远都不会达到它的最大潜力，而会继续慢慢地衰退。

为了提供一个更清晰的观点，每天有3975枚比特币被挖出以支持比特币网络，这就是每天超过100万美元，而比特股投资者当前只有勇气去支持11位100%受托人，合每月是2.2万美元或者每天733美元。简单地说，一个月2.2万美元的费用甚至比不上一个中型公司应有的开发预算。当你考虑到社区成员希望比特股到达的那种规模的话，你就会知道这个是一个多么小的数字。

先说清楚一下，就像我们的在原帖里说的一样，我们并不是希望用一个100%受托人去运营交易所，也不是去用来加上BitCNY交易对。我们，黑潮实验室，是一个专注于加密货币的开发团队，同时是在运营一个交易所。而且，请求一个受托人职位去建造开源的API包装器，还会将比特股的功能加到我们即将开源的账户系统里面（就像第一个帖子描述的那样）。

我们不认为受托人是在支持交易所。我们请求你去赞助黑潮实验室，是因为我们的存在对每一个我们参与的社区都有积极的意义。我们有雄心壮志的计划，我们建造Exco.in让我们可以开发利润低但重要的开源加密货币项目。

这里的一些敌意好像起源于我们与其他可能有竞争性的社区之间的关系。用这种姿态去审视其他社区的话会有潜在的隐患，因为这会让你为了短期的利润而去疏远那些有才能的人，这些人支持的是更广泛概念的加密货币。

编辑：眼下这个过程很有教育意义，我们已经学习到了更多关于如何运行不同的DACs。我们正在写一篇文章去讲述这个过程的详情，以及加上我们对比特股以及社区的分析到https://blackwavelabs.com 上。

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We requested 100% pay rate which we calculated to be estimated 2,000 USD if the current price holds (which is not guaranteed). We don't see the delegation as paying for our costs as much as subsidising a portion of our costs and bridging the gap with our development group by giving us stake in the BTS economy.

We are not amateur programmers, we are industry professionals that develop quality software and have a proven track record. We feel the positive affects of our proposed projects being created on the BTS ecosystem are valuable enough to want to assist funding their development and to ensure their completion happens faster.

2,000 USD a month would not cover the cost to hire a single senior developer. As with anything you buy you get two of three: fast, cheap or high quality. If you don't feel contributing developers merit rewards from the community, then you will likely find the infrastructure surrounding the BitShares overtime begin to stagnate as only a limited number of early adopters have the motive to continue to build infrastructure.

A large part of why we attempted to become a delegate was to learn more about BitShares and the delegate system. So far it appears that early adopters/large investors are afraid of inflation affecting their investment. This manifests by opposing the advantages that the BitShares system offers. BitShares has the potential to be a revolutionary tool that rewards and incentivizes developers (and others) to build a vibrant cryptocurrency ecosystem. However if the BitShares system continues to be held hostage by early investors who are worried about short term profits over long term goals, the project will never reach its full potential and it will continue on its slow decline.

To give perspective on this, 3975 BTC are mined each day to incentivize mining support for the Bitcoin network, which is well over a 1,000,000 USD a day, while BitShares investors only currently have the courage to support 11 delegates at 100% pay, totalling 22,000 USD a month or 733 USD a day. Simply put, 22,000 USD a month is not even an adequate budget for development even for a moderately sized company, and when you consider the scale many of the community members would like to see BitShares reach it is miniscule.

To be clear, as we said in our original post, we are not asking for 100% pay rate to operate the Exchange or to add bitCNY trading pairs. We, Blackwave Labs, are a cryptocurrency-focused development group who happens to operate an exchange and are asking for delegation to build open source API wrappers and add BitShares functionality to our soon to be open source accounting system described in the first post.

We don't see the delegation as supporting the exchange. We are asking you to sponsor Blackwave Labs because our existence has a positive effect on every community we are involved in. We have very ambitious plans and we built Exco.in to allow us to develop less profitable but important open source cryptocurrency projects.

Some of the animosity here seems to stem from our relationship with other communities that some feel are competing. Taking this position on other communities risks potentially alienating yourself from many talented people who support the broader concept of cryptocurrency over short term profit.

Edit: This whole process so far has been a educational experience and we have learned more about how different DACs operate. We are working on an article detailing the process and our analysis of BitShares project and community on https://blackwavelabs.com

[matt608]

I think,  we don't want to give each a on-line BTS trading exchange set up pay100% Delegate? This is a very stupid idea

Or again,  we will give every claim to promote BTS people set up pay100% Delegate? I saw a lot of fraud in the staged

We can form a kind of atmosphere, to establish pay100% Delegate, register and open you are going to do, when after your success or achievement, and then ask you to vote

Also, the BM community share voting right, should not easily use, after must wait for community voting ends, and then consider whether it is necessary to vote, and vote should have a half-life


I'm against almost all of the pay100% Delegate,  including BM 


 

After their work is all done they can be voted out, or they can propose a new reason to keep the delegate.

Also this is a great example to show to other (bigger) gateways of how they can get integration funded with BTS.  Picture the big exchanges competing for (temporary) BitShares delegate spots, it's marketing gold.

[Musewhale]

I think,  we don't want to give each a on-line BTS trading exchange set up pay100% Delegate? This is a very stupid idea

Or again,  we will give every claim to promote BTS people set up pay100% Delegate? I saw a lot of fraud in the staged

We can form a kind of atmosphere, to establish pay100% Delegate, register and open you are going to do, when after your success or achievement, and then ask you to vote

Also, the BM community share voting right, should not easily use, after must wait for community voting ends, and then consider whether it is necessary to vote, and vote should have a half-life


I'm against almost all of the pay100% Delegate,  including BM