An open challenge to Bytemaster

[Akado]

I would love to hear how critical bitcoin infrastructure could be come more secure like we did with the decentralized exchange article.

eg:  How could payment gateways use bitshares to make accepting bitcoin more streamlined or safer?
or How could btishares help bitcoin achieve remittance success?

I still feel like this is one of the most important questions to answer.  With the large investments in Bitcoin, how can we help them help ourselves?  There will be a time when we won't need to market that demographic, but for now, it's a priority in my mind.

BM,

When you're looking for a break from coding and searching for the next blog post, this one would be great.

This is everything a bitcoin fanboy needs to hear. I tend to prefer more this kind of posts as it suggests and mentions we're helping bitcoin instead of competing with it. People are afraid of competition, but if they see we are helping them they might see us with other eyes. This is what we need.

[hpenvy2]

I would love to hear how critical bitcoin infrastructure could be come more secure like we did with the decentralized exchange article.

eg:  How could payment gateways use bitshares to make accepting bitcoin more streamlined or safer?
or How could btishares help bitcoin achieve remittance success?

I still feel like this is one of the most important questions to answer.  With the large investments in Bitcoin, how can we help them help ourselves?  There will be a time when we won't need to market that demographic, but for now, it's a priority in my mind.

BM,

When you're looking for a break from coding and searching for the next blog post, this one would be great.

[hpenvy2]

0.6.0 comes with support for offline voter key and multisig. A generic offline transaction builder for all possible transaction types will come from nathan's light wallet as well.

Thank you Toast.

[toast]

0.6.0 comes with support for offline voter key and multisig. A generic offline transaction builder for all possible transaction types will come from nathan's light wallet as well.

[hpenvy2]

To be clear, It is cool to point out the benefits of bts.  In fact I would say it is critical.  I am just saying being tactful.

Dont say bitshares is better.  Say bitshares is better in this instance.
Say bitcoins does this great while bitshares does that great.

Its just the principles in the classic. "How to win friends and influence people."

But it is all kind of heightened by a factor of ten because if you can make it pro bitcoin you will get 10 times the eyeballs.

The biggest problem I have with bitshares today is its lacking cold wallet functionality. I could x10 my bitshares investment overnight if there was a cold wallet feature that could sign offline transactions and a hot wallet that could broadcast them. Alternatively OTP support in the client would help. Unfortunately now I have to just sit on the sidelines and wait. In the meantime perhaps other options will come up that overtake bitshares.

 

I'd like to hear more about this from our development team.

Bumping for clarification.

[Stan]

I've lost track, how many angles have we found?

1.  Decentralized exchanges are a safer way to trade cryptos.
2.  Earn a yield while riding the coming Bitcoin rebound.
3.  Diversify bitcoin without entering a centralized counter party risk system.
4.  Hold your own keys to your yield-bearing bitcoin savings account.
5.  Complete your bitcoin payments in just 10 seconds.
6.  Transfer bitcoins to a named account.
7.  Affordable high frequency bitcoin bot trading.

[bitmarket]

I must not be making my point clear, b/c nobody has addressed it head on, it seems like it's being avoided.

1) I agree with Max's idea in terms of an attitude & style. I disagree with the idea of hiding our advantages.

2) FOR THE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF REMITTANCES, how do you help bitcoin without taking something away from BitShares? Think about it in terms of opportunity costs. If we do X to help bitcoin gain a share of the remittance market, what impact would that have on BitShares?

If the impact is none or positive, great, we help BitShares AND bitcoin. As I said, I see no reason to throw glass in front of them, but neither do I think we should effectively throw it in front of our own car.

The more I think about it I see we are spending alot of time trying to focus on bitcoin here than moving ahead with our own work in markets we know we have an advantage in.

I understand the reasons to try to win over bitcoiners and address our poor reputation in their minds. It's important to do (as best we can, realizing many won't be won over due to an emotional attachment that rejects rational info that challenges their attachment) and I'm with you Max in your efforts to raise the BitShares' community awareness of how NOT to throw bitcoin under the bus.

I think a balance is necessary, and I've tried to explain why I think the scales are tipped more in one direction when we discuss the remittance market. 

Notice how I made my point in the previous sentence without even mentioning bitcoin? If we want to build a better mousetrap let's focus on engineering the best damned mousetrap we can, not anybody else that might be trying to build one.

To arhag I'll say thanks for your attempt, but I think you now see how difficult it is to try and wear two hats. That's the essence of Max's challenge. Nevertheless, it was a good try which I like b/c it was "let's help BitShares while we also help bitcoin". You're thinking win-win not win-loose and that's great. Let's just make sure we don't sacrifice our own mousetrap in the process.

1) I dont think we should hide advantages.
2) It is just temporary.  Soon customers will realize they dont need bitocin at all, but for the interim fiat > btc > bitUSD > btc> fiat solves a lot of their problems.

[bitmarket]

Diversify bitcoin into FIAT without entering a centralized counter party risk system.

Dude, I love this angle.

Agreed. Great angle.

[Thom]

I must not be making my point clear, b/c nobody has addressed it head on, it seems like it's being avoided.

1) I agree with Max's idea in terms of an attitude & style. I disagree with the idea of hiding our advantages.

2) FOR THE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF REMITTANCES, how do you help bitcoin without taking something away from BitShares? Think about it in terms of opportunity costs. If we do X to help bitcoin gain a share of the remittance market, what impact would that have on BitShares?

If the impact is none or positive, great, we help BitShares AND bitcoin. As I said, I see no reason to throw glass in front of them, but neither do I think we should effectively throw it in front of our own car.

The more I think about it I see we are spending alot of time trying to focus on bitcoin here than moving ahead with our own work in markets we know we have an advantage in.

I understand the reasons to try to win over bitcoiners and address our poor reputation in their minds. It's important to do (as best we can, realizing many won't be won over due to an emotional attachment that rejects rational info that challenges their attachment) and I'm with you Max in your efforts to raise the BitShares' community awareness of how NOT to throw bitcoin under the bus.

I think a balance is necessary, and I've tried to explain why I think the scales are tipped more in one direction when we discuss the remittance market. 

Notice how I made my point in the previous sentence without even mentioning bitcoin? If we want to build a better mousetrap let's focus on engineering the best damned mousetrap we can, not anybody else that might be trying to build one.

To arhag I'll say thanks for your attempt, but I think you now see how difficult it is to try and wear two hats. That's the essence of Max's challenge. Nevertheless, it was a good try which I like b/c it was "let's help BitShares while we also help bitcoin". You're thinking win-win not win-loose and that's great. Let's just make sure we don't sacrifice our own mousetrap in the process.

[rgcrypto]

Diversify bitcoin into FIAT without entering a centralized counter party risk system.

Dude, I love this angle.

[bitmarley]

BitShares Android app? Was not aware this was available yet

Android app download link via dropbox here (alpha version)
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11902.75

[hpenvy2]

To be clear, It is cool to point out the benefits of bts.  In fact I would say it is critical.  I am just saying being tactful.

Dont say bitshares is better.  Say bitshares is better in this instance.
Say bitcoins does this great while bitshares does that great.

Its just the principles in the classic. "How to win friends and influence people."

But it is all kind of heightened by a factor of ten because if you can make it pro bitcoin you will get 10 times the eyeballs.

The biggest problem I have with bitshares today is its lacking cold wallet functionality. I could x10 my bitshares investment overnight if there was a cold wallet feature that could sign offline transactions and a hot wallet that could broadcast them. Alternatively OTP support in the client would help. Unfortunately now I have to just sit on the sidelines and wait. In the meantime perhaps other options will come up that overtake bitshares.

 

I'd like to hear more about this from our development team.

[carpet ride]

To be clear, It is cool to point out the benefits of bts.  In fact I would say it is critical.  I am just saying being tactful.

Dont say bitshares is better.  Say bitshares is better in this instance.
Say bitcoins does this great while bitshares does that great.

Its just the principles in the classic. "How to win friends and influence people."

But it is all kind of heightened by a factor of ten because if you can make it pro bitcoin you will get 10 times the eyeballs.

I totally agree with you as a PR strategy. It extends further though into maturing the software features that bitcoin users need: Bitcoin users need bitshares bitAssets.

I am a hardcore bitcoiner who has never invested in any other alt-crypto until a few weeks ago I got really interested in bitshares. I would say that it wasn't I chose bitshares but rather *I didn't have any choice but bitshares*. Learning about the bitshares network security helped. Bitshares is the only way I know of to diversify bitcoin into FIAT without entering a centralized counter party risk system. The bitAssets CFD pools are the only decentralized option that is functional today. Bitcoin users need fiat diversification now. So everytime there is short term volatility in bitcoin or a failure such as Gox/Stamp, bitcoiners will go on the lookout for fiat diversification options. Bitshares is standing there with open arms ready to solve their problems via a decentralized network. 

The biggest problem I have with bitshares today is its lacking cold wallet functionality. I could x10 my bitshares investment overnight if there was a cold wallet feature that could sign offline transactions and a hot wallet that could broadcast them. Alternatively OTP support in the client would help. Unfortunately now I have to just sit on the sidelines and wait. In the meantime perhaps other options will come up that overtake bitshares.

This is the bitshares race. I recently downloaded the bitShares android app from these forms which seems to work great. Also I tried one of the btc/bitshares gateways you mentioned earlier and it worked! I would love to see a fully client side bitshares webwallet people could download and run locally in their browser with cold and hot wallet features. The existing software is 90% there but the final 10% missing security features are critical.

These development features lay down bridges that invite bitcoiners to cross over into bitsharesland whenever there is turmoil in the bitcoin kingdom. There are still some critical bridges that aren't fully matured which means bitcoiners who come to them may think twice before crossing. The bridges needs to be strong, smooth, shiny and straight as possible to maximize rapid conversion.


 

 

BitShares Android app? Was not aware this was available yet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bitmarley]

To be clear, It is cool to point out the benefits of bts.  In fact I would say it is critical.  I am just saying being tactful.

Dont say bitshares is better.  Say bitshares is better in this instance.
Say bitcoins does this great while bitshares does that great.

Its just the principles in the classic. "How to win friends and influence people."

But it is all kind of heightened by a factor of ten because if you can make it pro bitcoin you will get 10 times the eyeballs.

I totally agree with you as a PR strategy. It extends further though into maturing the software features that bitcoin users need: Bitcoin users need bitshares bitAssets.

I am a hardcore bitcoiner who has never invested in any other alt-crypto until a few weeks ago I got really interested in bitshares. I would say that it wasn't I chose bitshares but rather *I didn't have any choice but bitshares*. Learning about the bitshares network security helped. Bitshares is the only way I know of to diversify bitcoin into FIAT without entering a centralized counter party risk system. The bitAssets CFD pools are the only decentralized option that is functional today. Bitcoin users need fiat diversification now. So everytime there is short term volatility in bitcoin or a failure such as Gox/Stamp, bitcoiners will go on the lookout for fiat diversification options. Bitshares is standing there with open arms ready to solve their problems via a decentralized network. 

The biggest problem I have with bitshares today is its lacking cold wallet functionality. I could x10 my bitshares investment overnight if there was a cold wallet feature that could sign offline transactions and a hot wallet that could broadcast them. Alternatively OTP support in the client would help. Unfortunately now I have to just sit on the sidelines and wait. In the meantime perhaps other options will come up that overtake bitshares.

This is the bitshares race. I recently downloaded the bitShares android app from these forms which seems to work great. Also I tried one of the btc/bitshares gateways you mentioned earlier and it worked! I would love to see a fully client side bitshares webwallet people could download and run locally in their browser with cold and hot wallet features. The existing software is 90% there but the final 10% missing security features are critical.

These development features lay down bridges that invite bitcoiners to cross over into bitsharesland whenever there is turmoil in the bitcoin kingdom. There are still some critical bridges that aren't fully matured which means bitcoiners who come to them may think twice before crossing. The bridges needs to be strong, smooth, shiny and straight as possible to maximize rapid conversion.


 

 

[hpenvy2]

Beating Bitcoin does not mean BTS will succeed. Beating Bitcoin will not add value to BTS users.
we should consider on how to serve people who use Bit-assets and BTS to create value. This is the only long term grantee of high BTS price.
So I agree with bitmarket said.

  repeat, repeat, repeat

[hpenvy2]

I would love to hear how critical bitcoin infrastructure could be come more secure like we did with the decentralized exchange article.

eg:  How could payment gateways use bitshares to make accepting bitcoin more streamlined or safer?
or How could btishares help bitcoin achieve remittance success?

I just posted this to Nullstreet.  I offer 100% support to you in this vision.  I urge this community to start adopting this mindset and give Bitmarket whatever resources he needs.  I will put the same effort forward without requesting a tip if those resources went to Bitmarket.  That's how serious I am about what he's doing here. There's already millions of investment pouring into Bitcoin, let's figure out how Bitshares helps protect that investment.

[xiahui135]

Beating Bitcoin does not mean BTS will succeed. Beating Bitcoin will not add value to BTS users.
we should consider on how to serve people who use Bit-assets and BTS to create value. This is the only long term grantee of high BTS price.
So I agree with bitmarket said.

[arhag]

I would love to hear how critical bitcoin infrastructure could be come more secure like we did with the decentralized exchange article.

eg:  How could payment gateways use bitshares to make accepting bitcoin more streamlined or safer?

I like it. My attempt:

Many people may want to hold BTC as an investment instrument. But Bitcoin is also used as a payment system. However, because of the volatility of BTC, merchants accepting BTC automatically convert most (if not all) of it into USD. They usually use a centralized service such as BitPay to do this. And although BitPay claims to charge no fees for this service, the reality is they need to make money somehow and the way this is done is by charging a hidden fee through the less-than-optimal USD/BTC exchange price they offer. (Actually, I don't know if this is true. If BitPay's exchange prices really are as good as it can get, then the fees they get from providing phone support and other additional services must be enough to subsidize all other operations. In which case the pitch can't be on simply cutting costs for the merchant but the weaker argument of appealing to decentralization.)

What if we could provide a decentralized alternative to BitPay?

Users who still want to be exposed to BTC as an investment instrument can hold BitBTC instead. This is a counterparty-free cryptoderivative that is market pegged to the price of BTC. Whenever you want to withdraw in BTC, you convert BitBTC to GateBTC on the BitShares decentralized exchange at a near 1-to-1 price, and then turn in the GateBTC to redeem an equivalent amount of BTC for a fixed low cost transaction fee.

Merchants can set up the BitShares client to accept BitBTC directly with no middlemen. They could even set their clients up to automatically convert the received BitBTC into BitUSD on the BitShares decentralized exchange. The merchant's client will automatically do what BitPay does for them. They can be sure they are getting the best price on the BitBTC/BitUSD market, and there is no middleman to front run them and take a cut to pay for their operations. (In the future we may even have something similar to Ripple's path finding algorithm to automatically convert the BitBTC into BitUSD via the exchange and pay the merchant directly in BitUSD in one atomic operation.)

BitShares and BitBTC in particular allows users to remain exposed to BTC while still being able to pay merchants with BitBTC, and merchants accepting BitBTC can lower their costs (or even if costs remain the same, the other argument can be that the merchant can rest easy knowing they received ownership control of the appropriate value in exchange for the good/service provided at the point of sale rather than relying on an IOU from BitPay that they have to wait on until the USD is eventually deposited into their bank account). As an added bonus, the 10 second block intervals of BitShares means that payments can be confirmed on an average of 5 seconds.

Actually, the decentralized payment processor pitch is a harder sell than I thought when you are still trying to appeal to BTC holders...

[Thom]

But it is all kind of heightened by a factor of ten because if you can make it pro bitcoin you will get 10 times the eyeballs.

I so get that, it's truly an excellent point. How do you help bitcoin with remittances without screwing BitShares, unless BitShares has already succeeded in that market first? I don't see how you can.

[bitmarket]

To be clear, It is cool to point out the benefits of bts.  In fact I would say it is critical.  I am just saying being tactful.

Dont say bitshares is better.  Say bitshares is better in this instance.
Say bitcoins does this great while bitshares does that great.

Its just the principles in the classic. "How to win friends and influence people."

But it is all kind of heightened by a factor of ten because if you can make it pro bitcoin you will get 10 times the eyeballs.

[Thom]

How could btishares help bitcoin achieve remittance success?

Although I like the tone, sentiment and sound logic of your message to not go out of our way to put bitcoin down, I do see Empirical1.1's perspective in terms of not holding back on the solid facts that give BitShares an advantage over it's competitors like bitcoin. Max, you make a compelling case for sure, and we should definitely temper our posts with this in mind.

However, I'm just not sure how far that should go tho, thinking about your sentence above.

On the one hand, there's plenty of room in the growing remittance market for many players to feed like pigs and nobody goes hungry. On the other hand, it is a monstrously bit advantage BitShares has over all others so why would we "give it away"?

Perhaps give it away is put too strongly, but imo we should be strong and have penetrated that market before we spend any time or effort to help our competition.

Now if the process and methodology we use to penetrate the remittance market could serve to "demonstrate how it's done", to pave the way without throwing glass on the road behind us to blow out the competitor's tires by all means that should be the approach we take.

There's a big difference between throwing glass on the road to hinder them vs. forfeiting our lead car starting position and taking one 30 cars behind the pack.

I don't think there are [m]any here that are the type to use "glass on the road" strategies, and if there are they are doing so contrary to the Golden Principle; it is inconsistent to BitShares philosophy, hypocritical and should cease.

Maybe my aversion to such aggression biases me against seeing it, but I don't see it, and I really don't think we should give our advantages away.

[btswildpig]

I can already think of several subjects suitable for this bet :

1. Bitshares Gateway can let people easily trade Bitcoin in a decentralized manner .
2. BitUSD can let Bitcoin user store value in a USD form without going through banks .
3. Bitcoin Mining pools can use BitUSD as salary for the miners , suitable for even small payment transactions , and faster . Those miners who are afraid the Bitcoin price would drop when they finally got enough salary for a minimum payout can at ease now .

[mike623317]

In our case.
1. Our next wave of users, developers, eveangelists, marketers, and investors are most likely to come from the bitcoin space.
2. Every bitcoin enthusiast has been told by the majority of their friends that they were crazy for buying bitcoin and that they would lose money. There is tremendous ego involved to see bitcoin succeed for that reason, not just financial. Telling their friends they were right about crypto but wrong about bitcoin will not cut it at the next BBQ.
3. It costs a lot of money which we do not have to get the attention of many eyeballs and educate them on our brand new industry. Bitcoin enthusiasts are fanatical and will happily read any article that speaks highly of bitcoin posted on reddit. That means lots of free eyeballs that are the right eyeballs.

In my opinion it is strategically foolish to not take advantage of 3, by not acknowledging 2 and thus missing out on 1.

Btw, how many people have you successfully sold the concept of bitshares too?  Have you had much success with "we are better than bitcoin?" (Genuine question, not cheeky at all.)

I think you are making a very compelling argument 

[bitmarket]

I would love to hear how critical bitcoin infrastructure could be come more secure like we did with the decentralized exchange article.

eg:  How could payment gateways use bitshares to make accepting bitcoin more streamlined or safer?
or How could btishares help bitcoin achieve remittance success?

[bitmarket]

make it a check box that is ticked by default.

Would you like to receive free updates?

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/11/Introducing-SafeBot/

Check out the last sentence

Thank you very much.
Its a great start.

The topic doesn't exactly blow my skirt up, but I like the direction.

Lets see how it goes.

[bytemaster]

make it a check box that is ticked by default.

Would you like to receive free updates?

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/11/Introducing-SafeBot/

Check out the last sentence

[bitmarket]

make it a check box that is ticked by default.

Would you like to receive free updates?

[Riverhead]

Good idea.   We are capturing emails of everyone who signs up to BitShares via the faucet.   I will work with Valintine to capture the email address of users and tie it into our overall system.

This is not good. These users do not specifically want emails from you. If you collect leads on your blog from people who want emails from you, they will be much more responsive and you will be able to engage them.

If I got an email from you after signing up with the faucet, I will think that I fell for a trap for you to get my email so you can spam me.

This caught me by surprise too. It specifically states it's only using the information to validate you. I am perfectly fine with it collecting my email address and sending me security updates but it should be stated somewhere on there. Perhaps a small blurb: What data we collect and how it will be used type of thing.

It's a small matter but I am always a bit creeped out when I get an email related to something I did online and did not specifically give them my email address.

[gamey]

I think your personal approach is good, but I don't think we should confuse PR with marketing & advertising though.

Products are sold on their competitive strengths vs. their competitors. Bitcoin is the leading competitor. These are our advantages over Bitcoin in this area, try us. This is where we can be complimentary to Bitcoin, try us. Etc. 

The people you mentioned are both heavily positioned in Bitcoin so presumably would see anybody else as a threat. Are either of them very supportive & involved with any other options like XRP/NXT/PPC/STR? If not there's probably little benefit to pandering to your small sample of Bitcoin royalty if they historically haven't been directly involved with and supportive of a non Bitcoin linked options.

I also expect those invested in BTC but not heavily positioned in BTC related projects will be able to make more rational investment decisions than 'I am not reading it. The guys at BitShares hate Bitcoin

Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

Though I agree working better on PR, communication & being polite and respectful of Bitcoin are important.

There are a lot of people who were or are being fed by the Bitcoin bandwagon.  Most of them are going to be like this, there will always be some excuse they project outwards.

We want people to consider the idea of divesting from BTC into BitShares.

So in this regard when I post for bitshares I do try to soften my approach somewhat.  There definitely is something to be said about avoiding things that have people tune out.  So in this regard I have definitely become more cognizant of how I post things and avoid my  natural self.  Usually it is easier to not post

As far as "Beyond Bitcoin" - I didn't see it being used in this thread.  It is the name of a show that was targeting technology that was beyond bitcoin.  Things have changed but the name hasn't.

[bitmarket]

I just don't think I can write 6 articles by the 17th that end that way.

That was just a rule for the bet.   The challenge just wants 6 in what ever time frame you can manage

[bitmarket]

Agreed.  Measured results trumps opinion.   It sounds like you have had great success which is awesome.

In measured ways, pointing out points of improvement for bitcoin can be ok, but the constant bitcoin is "us vs them" and shitcanning bitcoin strategy is a poor one in IMO.

[Empirical1.1]

Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

It is a valid question.  I believe my thoughts are grounded logic and strategy though. 

I recall an article from a former senior management type from Skype who said behind closed doors they knew Skype was a direct competitor and had superior technology and costs than existing telephony technology. Their mission was to replace that industry. Strategically they decided to not position themselves as a telephony company at all for fear of regulatory obstacles created by the legacy telephony lobbyists. All be it for a different reason it is certainly a valid option to not go head to head with the 400 pound gorilla in the right circumstances.

In our case.
1. Our next wave of users, developers, eveangelists, marketers, and investors are most likely to come from the bitcoin space.
2. Every bitcoin enthusiast has been told by the majority of their friends that they were crazy for buying bitcoin and that they would lose money. There is tremendous ego involved to see bitcoin succeed for that reason, not just financial. Telling their friends they were right about crypto but wrong about bitcoin will not cut it at the next BBQ.
3. It costs a lot of money which we do not have to get the attention of many eyeballs and educate them on our brand new industry. Bitcoin enthusiasts are fanatical and will happily read any article that speaks highly of bitcoin posted on reddit. That means lots of free eyeballs that are the right eyeballs.

In my opinion it is strategically foolish to not take advantage of 3, by not acknowledging 2 and thus missing out on 1.

Btw, how many people have you successfully sold the concept of bitshares too?  Have you had much success with "we are better than bitcoin?" (Genuine question, not cheeky at all.)

Thanks for the challenging debate. I read my reply this morning and thought it was a bit confrontational, apologies.

I'll answer your last question first, on Bitcointalk over the year, quite a few people for sure, even a couple that have messaged me to say as a much & ask me questions etc. I don't always say we're better than Bitcoin but when I'm selling the strengths of anything I'll compare it with the weaknesses of a competitor.

Friends & acquaintances  knew I did well on Bitcoin (in @$40 mostly out $500-700) & thought I was crazy at the time but they're interested in my opinion now. They mainly want to know what the next big thing is, like they just want to buy, not understand, so I would say 'it's BitSharesX, as excited as I was about Bitcoin, this is better...' Then some want to know why Bitcoin is doing badly and why they should invest and then I explain the weaknesses of Bitcoin and the advantages of BitAssets.

However I respect your input, really like what you've done so far, also looking at the feedback here & on NullStreet there seems to be some consensus for your approach of explaining why we're complimentary more and why we can enhance the Bitcoin experience. So personally I'm happy then if people want to try doing more of that and measure the results.

[suwoder]

Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

It is a valid question.  I believe my thoughts are grounded logic and strategy though. 

I recall an article from a former senior management type from Skype who said behind closed doors they knew Skype was a direct competitor and had superior technology and costs than existing telephony technology. Their mission was to replace that industry. Strategically they decided to not position themselves as a telephony company at all for fear of regulatory obstacles created by the legacy telephony lobbyists. All be it for a different reason it is certainly a valid option to not go head to head with the 400 pound gorilla in the right circumstances.

In our case.
1. Our next wave of users, developers, eveangelists, marketers, and investors are most likely to come from the bitcoin space.
2. Every bitcoin enthusiast has been told by the majority of their friends that they were crazy for buying bitcoin and that they would lose money. There is tremendous ego involved to see bitcoin succeed for that reason, not just financial. Telling their friends they were right about crypto but wrong about bitcoin will not cut it at the next BBQ.
3. It costs a lot of money which we do not have to get the attention of many eyeballs and educate them on our brand new industry. Bitcoin enthusiasts are fanatical and will happily read any article that speaks highly of bitcoin posted on reddit. That means lots of free eyeballs that are the right eyeballs.

In my opinion it is strategically foolish to not take advantage of 3, by not acknowledging 2 and thus missing out on 1.

Btw, how many people have you successfully sold the concept of bitshares too?  Have you had much success with "we are better than bitcoin?" (Genuine question, not cheeky at all.)

agree no more 

[bitmarket]

Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

It is a valid question.  I believe my thoughts are grounded logic and strategy though. 

I recall an article from a former senior management type from Skype who said behind closed doors they knew Skype was a direct competitor and had superior technology and costs than existing telephony technology. Their mission was to replace that industry. Strategically they decided to not position themselves as a telephony company at all for fear of regulatory obstacles created by the legacy telephony lobbyists. All be it for a different reason it is certainly a valid option to not go head to head with the 400 pound gorilla in the right circumstances.

In our case.
1. Our next wave of users, developers, eveangelists, marketers, and investors are most likely to come from the bitcoin space.
2. Every bitcoin enthusiast has been told by the majority of their friends that they were crazy for buying bitcoin and that they would lose money. There is tremendous ego involved to see bitcoin succeed for that reason, not just financial. Telling their friends they were right about crypto but wrong about bitcoin will not cut it at the next BBQ.
3. It costs a lot of money which we do not have to get the attention of many eyeballs and educate them on our brand new industry. Bitcoin enthusiasts are fanatical and will happily read any article that speaks highly of bitcoin posted on reddit. That means lots of free eyeballs that are the right eyeballs.

In my opinion it is strategically foolish to not take advantage of 3, by not acknowledging 2 and thus missing out on 1.

Btw, how many people have you successfully sold the concept of bitshares too?  Have you had much success with "we are better than bitcoin?" (Genuine question, not cheeky at all.)
 

[santaclause102]

Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

I agree that the titles really don't need Bitcoin in them. I also think we should be polite and respectful. I just don't like the approach of avoiding the weaknesses of your competitor for fear of offending them.

I think it's patronising and disingenuous to frame yourself as a complimentary addition to the Bitcoin ecosystem when the intelligent people with capital are investors capable of making rational decisions based on direct comparisons.

As an example how do we promote remittances if not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin? Are we supposed to keep this competitive advantage quiet?

A post I made earlier today...

they're very excited about the potential Bitcoin has for remittance particularly in the Philippines, as $20 Billion annually is remitted there, unfortunately for them our dollar stable, 10 second, 1 cent transactions, interest paying BitUSD & the relationships & offramps John Underwood specifically has there, crushes their model. It's a huge market that BitShares is going to be vastly superior in. The approach of not explaining that, pretending to be complimentary, hoping they connect the dots and when they do say 'shhh, now that you' ve converted be vewy vewy quiet, nobody is aloud to openly make direct comparisons about BitShares having a better business model, we have to pwetend that our Bitcoin crushing remittance model is actually a complimentary addition to Bitcoin...' Is the wrong approach to me.

If you have a superior product and can back it up, make direct comparisons & intelligent, mature males with capital will consider it. They're investors and that's advertising.

If we don't a competitor will come along and say 'hey we can do the remittance job with a stable dollar asset, for 1c in 10 seconds and we have offramps in the Philippines' while Bitcoin is volatile, takes longer, charges more and has no banking relationships there' - People can see the light quickly with such a stark comparison which we will have failed to make if everyone took the soft sell approach.

I think both methods have a place but advertising your strengths vs. the leading competitor is just advertising, there's not many successful Trojan Horse campaigns I can recall and if there are, I would say they're the exception rather than the rule.

It will be an interesting challenge to try a few articles in the vein BitMarket suggests and I know that approach works very well for him. Personally though I'm going to continue to be clear and direct about our advantages as well as the weaknesses of Bitcoin when engaging people.

Let me give you two direct quotes from very serious people in the bitcoin space and good friends of mine.

1. A well known bitcoin investor and evengalist. Seed investor in many of the biggest bitcoin businesses that you all know the names of and a good friend was asked to proof read bitshares 101 for me.  He is a bitcoin multimillionaire and then some. He has flown me around in his plane. Bear in mind he is a good friend and would probably read a childrens book if I wrote it out of courtesy.

"I am not reading it. The guys at bitshares hate bitcoin."

2. Owner and developer of one of the best bitcoin wallets and a friend. He asked me to be a investor in his wallet because or my rep and ability to market. When I mentioned I was excited about bitshares his response was... "Oh dude stay away from them. They piss a lot of people off. If you align yourself with them you will feel it next time you are at a conference." 

Hence bitshares.tv and this challenge.   If we can repair bitshares reputation, I can bring a lot of people in.   But as long as we are banging on about, "proof of waste" "Proof of work is dead", "The one chain to rule them all", "bitshares makes bitcoin redundant" "bitcoins demise is inevitable because of its inefficiencies", "beyond bitcoin" we will be shunned by the demographic that should be most responsive to us.

for not being ignorant of social and psychological realities!
Adoption of a new technology is 50% technology and 50% a social phenomenon, at least.

[amencon]

Wow. Did you get to capture leads from all that traffic bytemaster?

What do you mean by "capture leads"?   

Everything we received in the past 48 hours (one of my biggest days) has resulted in a cookie being delivered to every visitor as part of our referral program.   I am working to optimize my blog to start funneling users into BitShares.

Are you using those cookies for Google remarketing ad campaigns or are funds for direct advertising not being used currently?

I only ask because at my last job we saw much higher conversion success ratios with our remarketing ads than general banner ads.  I'm not sure if Google adsense campaigns will be worth the cost in general for Bitshares but if one was I'd bet it would be a remarketing campaign.

[Empirical1.1]

Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

I agree that the titles really don't need Bitcoin in them. I also think we should be polite and respectful. I just don't like the approach of avoiding the weaknesses of your competitor for fear of offending them.

I think it's patronising and disingenuous to frame yourself as a complimentary addition to the Bitcoin ecosystem when the intelligent people with capital are investors capable of making rational decisions based on direct comparisons.

As an example how do we promote remittances if not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin? Are we supposed to keep this competitive advantage quiet?

A post I made earlier today...

they're very excited about the potential Bitcoin has for remittance particularly in the Philippines, as $20 Billion annually is remitted there, unfortunately for them our dollar stable, 10 second, 1 cent transactions, interest paying BitUSD & the relationships & offramps John Underwood specifically has there, crushes their model. It's a huge market that BitShares is going to be vastly superior in. The approach of not explaining that, pretending to be complimentary, hoping they connect the dots and when they do say 'shhh, now that you' ve converted be vewy vewy quiet, nobody is aloud to openly make direct comparisons about BitShares having a better business model, we have to pwetend that our Bitcoin crushing remittance model is actually a complimentary addition to Bitcoin...' Is the wrong approach to me.

If you have a superior product and can back it up, make direct comparisons & intelligent, mature males with capital will consider it. They're investors and that's advertising.

If we don't a competitor will come along and say 'hey we can do the remittance job with a stable dollar asset, for 1c in 10 seconds and we have offramps in the Philippines' while Bitcoin is volatile, takes longer, charges more and has no banking relationships there' - People can see the light quickly with such a stark comparison which we will have failed to make if everyone took the soft sell approach.

I think both methods have a place but advertising your strengths vs. the leading competitor is just advertising, there's not many successful Trojan Horse campaigns I can recall and if there are, I would say they're the exception rather than the rule.

It will be an interesting challenge to try a few articles in the vein BitMarket suggests and I know that approach works very well for him. Personally though I'm going to continue to be clear and direct about our advantages as well as the weaknesses of Bitcoin when engaging people.

Let me give you two direct quotes from very serious people in the bitcoin space and good friends of mine.

1. A well known bitcoin investor and evengalist. Seed investor in many of the biggest bitcoin businesses that you all know the names of and a good friend was asked to proof read bitshares 101 for me.  He is a bitcoin multimillionaire and then some. He has flown me around in his plane. Bear in mind he is a good friend and would probably read a childrens book if I wrote it out of courtesy.

"I am not reading it. The guys at bitshares hate bitcoin."

2. Owner and developer of one of the best bitcoin wallets and a friend. He asked me to be a investor in his wallet because or my rep and ability to market. When I mentioned I was excited about bitshares his response was... "Oh dude stay away from them. They piss a lot of people off. If you align yourself with them you will feel it next time you are at a conference." 

Hence bitshares.tv and this challenge.   If I can repair bitshares reputation, I can bring a lot of people in.   But as long as we are banging on about, "proof of waste" "Proof of work is dead", "The one chain to rule them all", "bitshares makes bitcoin redundant" "bitcoins demise is inevitable because of its inefficiencies", "beyond bitcoin" we will be shunned by the demographic that should be most responsive to us.

I think your personal approach is good, but I don't think we should confuse PR with marketing & advertising though.

Products are sold on their competitive strengths vs. their competitors. Bitcoin is the leading competitor. These are our advantages over Bitcoin in this area, try us. This is where we can be complimentary to Bitcoin, try us. Etc. 

The people you mentioned are both heavily positioned in Bitcoin so presumably would see anybody else as a threat. Are either of them very supportive & involved with any other options like XRP/NXT/PPC/STR? If not there's probably little benefit to pandering to your small sample of Bitcoin royalty if they historically haven't been directly involved with and supportive of a non Bitcoin linked options.

I also expect those invested in BTC but not heavily positioned in BTC related projects will be able to make more rational investment decisions than 'I am not reading it. The guys at BitShares hate Bitcoin

Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

Though I agree working better on PR, communication & being polite and respectful of Bitcoin are important.

[bytemaster]

Good idea.   We are capturing emails of everyone who signs up to BitShares via the faucet.   I will work with Valintine to capture the email address of users and tie it into our overall system.

This is not good. These users do not specifically want emails from you. If you collect leads on your blog from people who want emails from you, they will be much more responsive and you will be able to engage them.

If I got an email from you after signing up with the faucet, I will think that I fell for a trap for you to get my email so you can spam me.

I would keep the lists separate.   The only thing we are using the faucet emails for is alerting users of security updates.   

[fluxer555]

Good idea.   We are capturing emails of everyone who signs up to BitShares via the faucet.   I will work with Valintine to capture the email address of users and tie it into our overall system.

This is not good. These users do not specifically want emails from you. If you collect leads on your blog from people who want emails from you, they will be much more responsive and you will be able to engage them.

If I got an email from you after signing up with the faucet, I will think that I fell for a trap for you to get my email so you can spam me.

[bitmarket]

The PR announcement I wrote for Max about how Bitshares+Shapeshift can shape the bitcoin world for the better  can count in this bet , if the Shapeshift thing did pan out like what I wrote in that article . What do you think , max ?

I agree. But lets not give him any clues.     It is a great PR piece by the way.   Shapeshift are looking forward to running with it too.

[bitmarket]

Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

I agree that the titles really don't need Bitcoin in them. I also think we should be polite and respectful. I just don't like the approach of avoiding the weaknesses of your competitor for fear of offending them.

I think it's patronising and disingenuous to frame yourself as a complimentary addition to the Bitcoin ecosystem when the intelligent people with capital are investors capable of making rational decisions based on direct comparisons.

As an example how do we promote remittances if not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin? Are we supposed to keep this competitive advantage quiet?

A post I made earlier today...

they're very excited about the potential Bitcoin has for remittance particularly in the Philippines, as $20 Billion annually is remitted there, unfortunately for them our dollar stable, 10 second, 1 cent transactions, interest paying BitUSD & the relationships & offramps John Underwood specifically has there, crushes their model. It's a huge market that BitShares is going to be vastly superior in. The approach of not explaining that, pretending to be complimentary, hoping they connect the dots and when they do say 'shhh, now that you' ve converted be vewy vewy quiet, nobody is aloud to openly make direct comparisons about BitShares having a better business model, we have to pwetend that our Bitcoin crushing remittance model is actually a complimentary addition to Bitcoin...' Is the wrong approach to me.

If you have a superior product and can back it up, make direct comparisons & intelligent, mature males with capital will consider it. They're investors and that's advertising.

If we don't a competitor will come along and say 'hey we can do the remittance job with a stable dollar asset, for 1c in 10 seconds and we have offramps in the Philippines' while Bitcoin is volatile, takes longer, charges more and has no banking relationships there' - People can see the light quickly with such a stark comparison which we will have failed to make if everyone took the soft sell approach.

I think both methods have a place but advertising your strengths vs. the leading competitor is just advertising, there's not many successful Trojan Horse campaigns I can recall and if there are, I would say they're the exception rather than the rule.

It will be an interesting challenge to try a few articles in the vein BitMarket suggests and I know that approach works very well for him. Personally though I'm going to continue to be clear and direct about our advantages as well as the weaknesses of Bitcoin when engaging people.

Let me give you two direct quotes from very serious people in the bitcoin space and good friends of mine.

1. A well known bitcoin investor and evengalist. Seed investor in many of the biggest bitcoin businesses that you all know the names of and a good friend was asked to proof read bitshares 101 for me.  He is a bitcoin multimillionaire and then some. He has flown me around in his plane. Bear in mind he is a good friend and would probably read a childrens book if I wrote it out of courtesy.

"I am not reading it. The guys at bitshares hate bitcoin."

2. Owner and developer of one of the best bitcoin wallets and a friend. He asked me to be a investor in his wallet because or my rep and ability to market. When I mentioned I was excited about bitshares his response was... "Oh dude stay away from them. They piss a lot of people off. If you align yourself with them you will feel it next time you are at a conference." 

Hence bitshares.tv and this challenge.   If we can repair bitshares reputation, I can bring a lot of people in.   But as long as we are banging on about, "proof of waste" "Proof of work is dead", "The one chain to rule them all", "bitshares makes bitcoin redundant" "bitcoins demise is inevitable because of its inefficiencies", "beyond bitcoin" we will be shunned by the demographic that should be most responsive to us.

[Empirical1.1]

Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

I agree that the titles really don't need Bitcoin in them. I also think we should be polite and respectful. I just don't like the approach of avoiding the weaknesses of your competitor for fear of offending them.

I think it's patronising and disingenuous to frame yourself as a complimentary addition to the Bitcoin ecosystem when the intelligent people with capital are investors capable of making rational decisions based on direct comparisons.

As an example how do we promote remittances if not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin? Are we supposed to keep this competitive advantage quiet?

A post I made earlier today...

they're very excited about the potential Bitcoin has for remittance particularly in the Philippines, as $20 Billion annually is remitted there, unfortunately for them our dollar stable, 10 second, 1 cent transactions, interest paying BitUSD & the relationships & offramps John Underwood specifically has there, crushes their model. It's a huge market that BitShares is going to be vastly superior in. The approach of not explaining that, pretending to be complimentary, hoping they connect the dots and when they do say 'shhh, now that you' ve converted be vewy vewy quiet, nobody is aloud to openly make direct comparisons about BitShares having a better business model, we have to pwetend that our Bitcoin crushing remittance model is actually a complimentary addition to Bitcoin...' Is the wrong approach to me.

If you have a superior product and can back it up, make direct comparisons & intelligent, mature males with capital will consider it. They're investors and that's advertising.

If we don't a competitor will come along and say 'hey we can do the remittance job with a stable dollar asset, for 1c in 10 seconds and we have offramps in the Philippines' while Bitcoin is volatile, takes longer, charges more and has no banking relationships there' - People can see the light quickly with such a stark comparison which we will have failed to make if everyone took the soft sell approach.

I think both methods have a place but advertising your strengths vs. the leading competitor is just advertising, there's not many successful Trojan Horse campaigns I can recall and if there are, I would say they're the exception rather than the rule.

It will be an interesting challenge to try a few articles in the vein BitMarket suggests and I know that approach works very well for him. Personally though I'm going to continue to be clear and direct about our advantages as well as the weaknesses of Bitcoin when engaging people.

[btswildpig]

Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

[bytemaster]

What do you mean by "capture leads"?   

Everything we received in the past 48 hours (one of my biggest days) has resulted in a cookie being delivered to every visitor as part of our referral program.   I am working to optimize my blog to start funneling users into BitShares.

You are doing great and this is not criticism. By leads I mean a way to capture email to build a list and have your own private source of traffic forever and ever.

I mean you are producing a lot of content! Would be happy to setup a subscription form with a call to action at the end of every post for you if you need support.

Good idea.   We are capturing emails of everyone who signs up to BitShares via the faucet.   I will work with Valintine to capture the email address of users and tie it into our overall system. 

[thistome]

Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

[RenaudGagne]

What do you mean by "capture leads"?   

Everything we received in the past 48 hours (one of my biggest days) has resulted in a cookie being delivered to every visitor as part of our referral program.   I am working to optimize my blog to start funneling users into BitShares.

You are doing great and this is not criticism. By leads I mean a way to capture email to build a list and have your own private source of traffic forever and ever.

I mean you are producing a lot of content! Would be happy to setup a subscription form with a call to action at the end of every post for you if you need support.

[btswildpig]

The PR announcement I wrote for Max about how Bitshares+Shapeshift can shape the bitcoin world for the better  can count in this bet , if the Shapeshift thing did pan out like what I wrote in that article . What do you think , max ?

[bytemaster]

Wow. Did you get to capture leads from all that traffic bytemaster?

What do you mean by "capture leads"?   

Everything we received in the past 48 hours (one of my biggest days) has resulted in a cookie being delivered to every visitor as part of our referral program.   I am working to optimize my blog to start funneling users into BitShares.   

[Vizzini]

I smell funnels.

[RenaudGagne]

Wow. Did you get to capture leads from all that traffic bytemaster?

[bytemaster]

I can measure it.  I just don't think I can write 6 articles by the 17th that end that way.   It would seem that the Bitcoin related ones are relatively high on the list. 

Here is a list of my top articles.  The first number is total page views, the second number is unique page views. 

1.   
/article/2014/12/22/BitShares-Login/
12,464(24.05%)
5,835(25.18%)

/
8,635(16.66%)
2,965(12.80%)

   3.   
/article/2015/01/09/How-to-Measure-the-Decentralization-of-Bitcoin/?r=jaran
2,154(4.16%)
1,032(4.45%)

   4.   
/article/2014/12/24/Introducing-BitShares-Object-Graph/
2,119(4.09%)
1,005(4.34%)

   5.   
/article/2014/12/26/Stop-the-Crowd-Sales-Long-Live-Crowd-Funding/
1,825(3.52%)

   6.   
/article/2015/01/05/The-Future-of-Crypto-Currency-Exchanges/
1,637(3.16%)
734(3.17%)

   7.   
/article/2014/12/31/Stable-Crypto-Currencies-are-Impossible/
1,506(2.91%)
690(2.98%)

   8.   
/article/2015/01/04/Why-I-am-an-Austrian-Economist/
1,232(2.38%)
557(2.40%)

   9.   
/article/2014/12/21/Provably-Honest-Online-Elections/
992(1.91%)
343(1.48%)

   10.   
/article/2014/12/27/The-Benefits-of-A-Contract-Free-Society/
949(1.83%)
428(1.85%)

   11.   
/article/2015/01/01/How-to-create-a-stable-decentralized-crypto-currency/
942(1.82%)
412(1.78%)

[rgcrypto]

Great challenge! I like reading your post bytemaster but this is a good one to try.

[Riverhead]

I accept and hope to lose this bet .

[bitmarket]

The Bitshares toolkit is phenominally powerful and can streamline and improve many businesses all around the world. No one is better than Bytemaster at seeing those opportunities.

It seems the niche that will most readily understand and implement bitshares into some part of their business is the bitcoin ecosystem. I want to test him to see how useful bitshares is?

So here is my challenge.

Can BM write 6 blog posts where the last sentence of each blog post is:

"And that is just one way of many that bitshares will massively grow/secure/improve/drive adoption/expand/protect/raise the marketcap of the bitcoin ecosystem"

Just 1 rule: Changing the bitcoin protocol can not be part of the solution.
& 1 preference: Bitcoin and all bitcoin associated infrastructure and personalities are spoken of exclusively in a positive light. Along the lines of "this is great and here is how it can be even better."

And because I have a gambling problem, I bet bit$50 that these 6 articles receive more views by the end of the month than all previous posts combined up until today if the 5 articles are published by Jan 17. I will honor that bet with one person only. The first one to accept it in this thread.  (assuming it can be measured).