Author Topic: The New Consensus: Bitshares' response to DecentralizedEconomics criticisms  (Read 9048 times)

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Offline bitmarket

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The solution is that mergers and other changes to the company charter must be voted on by shareholders in the client. Then those claims made against us will no longer be true.   It was the absence of that voting mechanism that made it murky.   With that voting mechanism bitshares would have charted new territory and proudly led the crypto world through its first merger just like it led the crypto world through its first block chain employee.
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Offline BTSdac

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There is confusion about we what wish to commit to now and what the reality about how the system works is.

The system is ruled by shareholder vote. If you promise a fixed cap as part of the system, you are lying. The chance to have people believe anything the devs or the code says has passed. The only thing left is the consensus metric.

If you promise a fixed cap is what everyone thinks is the best option to commit to now, that's a different story. We should have a shareholder vote of confidence to convince the world that's what current shareholders want.
what we really want to do ? why we start?
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Offline fuzzy

Many developers would take "equity" in place of salary (ie, not contribute to sell pressure) but if you cannot offer them equity then they will go work someplace else and support BitShares part time if at all.

This statement (if true) disappoints me ...  :(
So all (or the majority) of the Dev's are motivated because of money/equity only? Is anybody motivated for the great vision behind bitshares?
Is anybody motivated to dedicate himself in the name of freedom, in the name of liberty or whatever? So you say we are depended from the bitcoin success (or not) and not by our self?
I really don't want to believe that in case that our market cap decrease to much (whatever the reason is) we will loose the support of all of our Dev's...
Sorry but I have imagined it a little bit different ... and I still (want to) believe, I can keep dreaming ...



If bts falls to 10mil market cap we will see how many people are actually here for the vision.....

Or you can look back to the very beginning before there even was a solid vision, and generally all the times afterward when the current crypto paradigm's talking heads openly laughed at or ignored us. 

While everyone was working with the next big thing, many people were here working on building everything necessary to create a true contender for the best crypto ecosystem in existence. :)
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Offline Stan

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You know that already.

Every full time delegate is currently working for a small fraction of what they could earn elsewhere.

 :)

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline lil_jay890

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Many developers would take "equity" in place of salary (ie, not contribute to sell pressure) but if you cannot offer them equity then they will go work someplace else and support BitShares part time if at all.

This statement (if true) disappoints me ...  :(
So all (or the majority) of the Dev's are motivated because of money/equity only? Is anybody motivated for the great vision behind bitshares?
Is anybody motivated to dedicate himself in the name of freedom, in the name of liberty or whatever? So you say we are depended from the bitcoin success (or not) and not by our self?
I really don't want to believe that in case that our market cap decrease to much (whatever the reason is) we will loose the support of all of our Dev's...
Sorry but I have imagined it a little bit different ... and I still (want to) believe, I can keep dreaming ...



If bts falls to 10mil market cap we will see how many people are actually here for the vision.....

Offline ripplexiaoshan

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The OP is the best post I have recently read. I fully agree. Compared with BTC, BTS is more centralized at current stage, and the inflation problem is critical, but it has the potential to be improved in future, because we have a better community and self sustaining mechanism.   
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Offline btswildpig

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You're right the situation would be very uncomfortable and unstable for all involved parties. The risk that it would fail completely at this point is quite high. The question is just, what are the alternatives?

There are no alternatives except to not do it and suffer whatever consequences there may be. I don't even get what the point of this is. It seems Dan and Toast are being asked to make statements they know are not true so that others will be made happy because that is "how a business is run? "

Seriously.  D.E. is just an over the top troll going after BitShares because he has no better target and NXT is feeling how far they're getting behind. It was something for Stan to do who is unmatched in his responses.

I'd still bet NXT will start diluting within 2 years, possibly 1 year.

I'll bet we don't even know what NXT is in the next year .
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline gamey

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You're right the situation would be very uncomfortable and unstable for all involved parties. The risk that it would fail completely at this point is quite high. The question is just, what are the alternatives?

There are no alternatives except to not do it and suffer whatever consequences there may be. I don't even get what the point of this is. It seems Dan and Toast are being asked to make statements they know are not true so that others will be made happy because that is "how a business is run? "

Seriously.  D.E. is just an over the top troll going after BitShares because he has no better target and NXT is feeling how far they're getting behind. It was something for Stan to do who is unmatched in his responses.

I'd still bet NXT will start diluting within 2 years, possibly 1 year.
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Offline btswildpig

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Notice that "additional dilution" was what I mentioned .

Okay. My point was just that we have to support certain core positions (primarily devs) pretty much at any price.
But I do hope that we will never be in the situation where we struggle with that.

I just updated my post with new info .
And I don't think the developers would really feel safe watching the price drop and needed additional dilution to support them . They will know something is weird and will have the urge to prepare for a exit strategy in case something even additional dilution can't support them any longer . How can we expect the motivation for them if this happens ?

Additional solution for the business model is not just for the shareholders , but for the developers as well .
If I'm a developer , if I know that this month's income comes from more dilution , then I'll think about how long this can last , and I have mouths to feed , so I'm not sure I'll be comfortable even the fiat value is the same as the last month . Just imaging if you know your employer is borrowing more debts to pay your salary , won't you worry at all if the next month can pay ?

You're right the situation would be very uncomfortable and unstable for all involved parties. The risk that it would fail completely at this point is quite high. The question is just, what are the alternatives?

I think Bytemaster just pointed out that "every delegate should have a business model"  .
Even with development process , identify those effort which are more important to save the business is a huge part of a business model .

Say , if I have two tasks at hand , one can get me more exchange adoption , one can get me progress in 1 year may achieve big things  , and we're in a recession , which one should I choose ?  The balance in this alone is a business decision .

There are more viable business model for every delegates , instead of passively diluting to make it going , delegates can also aggressively help the business towards a sustainable way .

I think everyone in this capable team can think of something .
Business thinking isn't just for marketing delegates .
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline ebit

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 Where can I buy
ToastAsset,
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ValentineAsset,
BenAsset,
BmAsset,
StanAsset?
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Offline BTSdac

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It is really kind of a catch-22 on the community.   Imagine for a moment that BTS value fell down to $10M because Bitcoin fell down to $80.    At our maximum dilution rate of 50 BTS per block (~6% per year) your development budget would be crushed to $600,000 per year which is enough to pay about 5 developers each with 20 delegates.   

Who would we let go?  Toast, Nathan, Vikram, Valentine, Ben, Me, Stan, the entire marketing team?   

So while I think it is safe to say that we will never dilute by more than $3 million dollars per year of capital infusion I doubt the stakeholders would want to cripple our team which is the only hope we have toward long term viability. 

As it stands right now, we will need 101 fully paid 100% delegates to maintain our current burn rate.   The community would have to start making tough choices on who to let go. 

Many developers would take "equity" in place of salary (ie, not contribute to sell pressure) but if you cannot offer them equity then they will go work someplace else and support BitShares part time if at all.

On the other hand by the time we grow to be the size of Bitcoin it is inconceivable that we should need any additional dilution.   So I would be sure to caveat any "rules" on dilution to only apply at market caps above $250M because below that point we are still in the "bootstrap" phase.   

Not saying I want to dilute, I would much rather have us grow faster than we are diluting, but we can never guess how Bitcoin's fate could impact us.
I agree you almost your view so far, but this time ,I disagree

if price of btc drop to $80, why do you think BTS value fell down to $10M ,HI BM ,we have so many 100% pay delegates, if this mechanism is effective , 100% pay delegate would bring the real value to BTS system , the price of BTS would increase ,at least doesn`t drop with BTC.   if the result is not , then I think the mechanism of 100% pay delegate is`t effective, so we should vote out all 100% pay delegate rather than 101 fully paid 100% delegates.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 11:42:34 am by BTSdac »
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Offline Frodo

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Notice that "additional dilution" was what I mentioned .

Okay. My point was just that we have to support certain core positions (primarily devs) pretty much at any price.
But I do hope that we will never be in the situation where we struggle with that.

I just updated my post with new info .
And I don't think the developers would really feel safe watching the price drop and needed additional dilution to support them . They will know something is weird and will have the urge to prepare for a exit strategy in case something even additional dilution can't support them any longer . How can we expect the motivation for them if this happens ?

Additional solution for the business model is not just for the shareholders , but for the developers as well .
If I'm a developer , if I know that this month's income comes from more dilution , then I'll think about how long this can last , and I have mouths to feed , so I'm not sure I'll be comfortable even the fiat value is the same as the last month . Just imaging if you know your employer is borrowing more debts to pay your salary , won't you worry at all if the next month can pay ?

You're right the situation would be very uncomfortable and unstable for all involved parties. The risk that it would fail completely at this point is quite high. The question is just, what are the alternatives?

Offline btswildpig

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Notice that "additional dilution" was what I mentioned .

Okay. My point was just that we have to support certain core positions (primarily devs) pretty much at any price.
But I do hope that we will never be in the situation where we struggle with that.

I just updated my post with new info .
And I don't think the developers would really feel safe watching the price drop and needed additional dilution to support them . They will know something is weird and will have the urge to prepare for a exit strategy in case something even additional dilution can't support them any longer . How can we expect the motivation for them if this happens ?

Additional solution for the business model is not just for the shareholders , but for the developers as well .
If I'm a developer , if I know that this month's income comes from more dilution , then I'll think about how long this can last , and I have mouths to feed , so I'm not sure I'll be comfortable even the fiat value is the same as the last month . Just imaging if you know your employer is borrowing more debts to pay your salary , won't you worry at all if the next month can pay ? 
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline Frodo

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Notice that "additional dilution" was what I mentioned .

Okay. My point was just that we have to support certain core positions (primarily devs) pretty much at any price.
But I do hope that we will never be in the situation where we struggle with that.

Offline btswildpig

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I agree with toast on this matter. What is the value of giving promises that no single party is able to keep? Every future shareholder is involved in the decision process. This is the way it should be.

I think the fear that some have is round 2 of the big bulk inflation.

If there's a Round 2 of that, then BitShares is dead. Period. Every ounce of promotion we are doing, and much more, would be lost.

I think the whole point of those changes was to position BitShares well so that it will be strong for many years to come.

Agreed .
Dilution is only mean to fund the operation and grow the eco-system , if there comes to a point that the current rate of dilution can't sustain the operation , then we're not actually growing , are we ?

If our business grows 10 times , then yes , more dilution maybe acceptable in the future . You can add 10X dilution and people might gladly accept it .

But if the business stays the same or even shrinking , then additional dilution won't do much good either . Everybody's pay will be diluted as well to the point that no dilution amount can revive the business .

I remembered at the old days , the poor people can't afford to eat regular meal , they make rice porridge for the
whole family , and as the rice became rare , they added more water to make the porridge to a point that it's not even a porridge but water with rice . 

Unless those additional dilution is paid in a postpone period , just like the stock options in real companies .

If we're gonna argue that our system is "self-funding" , then we have to increase the value , so the dilution can have meaning . Otherwise , it's just like putting more water in a rice porridge . If there comes to a point that we need additional dilution to maintain a shrinking business , then just like what people in the regular company would do : Cut costs , reform business model , make extra income , lobby for outside funding .

Dilution is not the final answer for everything .


I agree that dilution isn't a universal solution, yet I don't agree with the rest you said.
Growing an ecosystem isn't a linear process. You can't say that for every $1 worth of work put into the system it has to grow more than $1. The point is this has just to be true on average. There will be days where you spend more than you make, but that is okay as long as it doesn't happen too often.

Just look at BitShares' history. We already had a cap of $80 mil. Since then we lost value. Was it wrong to dilute in this time to get to the point where we currently are? Was it wrong to pay bytemaster, toast, vikram and all the others for their development efforts, even though they didn't bring a huge value improvement yet? No. The time where this efforts pay out will come, but probably not today or tomorrow. It is simple. You have to invest first, before you can make money.

Notice that "additional dilution" was what I mentioned .
If we only have one solution to get through a crisis , then when the next crisis comes , the answer will be :
another additional .
And the next time will be , another another another anther additional dilution .

I once invested in a small business when I was young , and when the business couldn't generate income , I use my own money just to keep it going , it finally comes to a point that I don't have any extra money to save it anymore .

It's a simple issue , if there comes to a time that more debts are the solution to cover the last debt , then we are looking at the US government . The US government thought they can pay off their debts too by using the debts to grow the economy and thus increase the tax income to pay off the debt , but obviously it failed .

I liked how BM said "delegates should have a business plan"  . That's what we need here . 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 11:14:38 am by btswildpig »
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.