Author Topic: Angel Shares Feedback Requested  (Read 32200 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bitcool

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #180 on: December 16, 2013, 01:30:39 am »
I'm with Que on this one.  Miners efforts are wasted outside the system.  Your paying expenses to your ulility company and amazon.  If you really invested money for mining protoshares, I think that was ill-advised because there has numerous discussions here that Invictus was looking for a PoS-- which seeks to limit mining.  Mining is wasteful.  Its wasteful here.  And really would miners promote a currency?  I doubt it.  That's a myth.  Once miners get their coins, they would dump them on the market once they see a good opening.  If you really want to get involved in PTS, but with mining its thats so important, then mine another currency, exchange it and get some PTS.  Then convert those PTS to PTS 2.

Miner's effort is not wasted, it's a necessary evil to secure the network; this subject has been debated on the bitcoin forums many times, repeating the debate here won't yield any meaningful result. I consider myself environmental-conscious and recycle whenever I can, but the energy spent on cryptocurrency mining is really miniscule when you comparing it with a lot of other human activities, the benefit is far outweigh the cost.

Also, I don't see Amazon, DO, electricity companies are taking advantage of PTS, like it or not, they are an integrated part of the PTS ecosystem.

If PoS is so superior, you'd think PPC has by now overtaken LTC or even BTC, but that's not the case.

 

Offline que23

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #181 on: December 16, 2013, 01:32:35 am »
@luckybit, I'm sure there will be a very rich bounty program available. There is a lot of work to be done. Wikis and FAQs and how to guides. More graphics and videos....
PTS: Pa75dEzGkMcnM85hRMbdKiS1YdF81rnSCF

Offline threepoint14

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #182 on: December 16, 2013, 01:33:36 am »
It is obvious that PTS must be mined as planned and must represent at least 10% of the total money supply in BitShares.    Bytemaster has conceded this point.

Bytemaster said his friends and family purchased PTS... do you think he would intentionally do anything that would devalue those PTS?    He also said his plan was to maximize PTS value which would make since considering Invictus is heavily invested in PTS.   So I don't see him devaluing PTS intentionally.

The problem is that most people lack knowledge of how shares of company stock work. 

Quote
Post-money valuation is the value of a company after an investment has been made. This value is equal to the sum of the pre-money valuation and the amount of new equity.[1]
External investors, such as venture capitalists and angel investors, will use a pre-money valuation to determine how much equity to demand in return for their cash injection to an entrepreneur and his/her startup company. The implied post-money valuation is calculated as the dollar amount of investment divided by the equity stake gained in an investment.

New equity is issued by diluting existing equity but the post-money valuation of the original holders usually increases as a result of the capital infusion even though their percentage ownership has decreased.   

So right now there is $500K backing 1.2 million PTS.    If Invictus were to raise $20M over 10 weeks by substituting a new form of mining then there would be $20.5M backing  2.2 million PTS2.   It seems to me that this would dramatically increase the value of existing PTS.

So you all need to stop looking at the PTS supply side of the equation and look at the fact that this is a capital infusion that greatly favors PTS holders at the expense of those greedy angels who are only asking for 50% in exchange for 20M.   


Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #183 on: December 16, 2013, 01:36:05 am »
@luckybit, I'm sure there will be a very rich bounty program available. There is a lot of work to be done. Wikis and FAQs and how to guides. More graphics and videos....

For marketing purposes Bytemaster would have an easier time promoting these ideas if he offered it up as "We will have lots of bounties, contests, and jobs for everyone if we get additional investment". Unfortunately it wasn't presented like that so the community didn't get behind it but perhaps there is a chance to present both the investment opportunities to the community as well as the opportunity to work for DACs and get credited for it through Keyhotee.

That is how Dacoinminster was so successful. He got us all involved in contests and the contests originally paid Bitcoin but eventually Mastercoins too.

So perhaps also pay workers in their choice of DAC currency and it can work. Like if you want to be paid in Bitshares or in Protoshares or whatever instead of $ or some combination of both. That would be great and I'd support it.

It is obvious that PTS must be mined as planned and must represent at least 10% of the total money supply in BitShares.    Bytemaster has conceded this point.

Bytemaster said his friends and family purchased PTS... do you think he would intentionally do anything that would devalue those PTS?    He also said his plan was to maximize PTS value which would make since considering Invictus is heavily invested in PTS.   So I don't see him devaluing PTS intentionally.

The problem is that most people lack knowledge of how shares of company stock work. 

Quote
Post-money valuation is the value of a company after an investment has been made. This value is equal to the sum of the pre-money valuation and the amount of new equity.[1]
External investors, such as venture capitalists and angel investors, will use a pre-money valuation to determine how much equity to demand in return for their cash injection to an entrepreneur and his/her startup company. The implied post-money valuation is calculated as the dollar amount of investment divided by the equity stake gained in an investment.

New equity is issued by diluting existing equity but the post-money valuation of the original holders usually increases as a result of the capital infusion even though their percentage ownership has decreased.   

So right now there is $500K backing 1.2 million PTS.    If Invictus were to raise $20M over 10 weeks by substituting a new form of mining then there would be $20.5M backing  2.2 million PTS2.   It seems to me that this would dramatically increase the value of existing PTS.

So you all need to stop looking at the PTS supply side of the equation and look at the fact that this is a capital infusion that greatly favors PTS holders at the expense of those greedy angels who are only asking for 50% in exchange for 20M.

But the benefit of mining it and not treating it like shares in company stock is precisely because of the regulatory burdens which go along with it. If Invictus Innovations offered stock I'm sure people would buy stock in them but that would involve law enforcement and the SEC.

Also it's not about the short term value of PTS. It's about "A deal is a deal" and "honor the social contract as it was agreed upon" and of course trying to compromise so that everyone gets some win.

I think there are some ideas now on how to compromise so every side can win.  Let's not try to attribute or treat PTS like a "stock" or apply any of the existing paradigm to the new paradigm. PTS is a new paradigm and there is nothing to compare it to in the stock market so lets not try comparing it to that and stick to comparing it to Bitcoin, Mastercoin and the other similar asset classes.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 01:43:04 am by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline oco101

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #184 on: December 16, 2013, 01:39:12 am »
The money I've made just over the past year from people dumping... I'll buy a bunch of PTS when the exchanges come back on.

Your here in the first place because Bytemaster had controversial ideas. Note that this idea comes more from the fatal centralization and algorithmic issues in Proof-of-Work than raising money. This is pretty hard to convince anyone unless they have read and understand the Bitcoin whitepaper, or had a coin they had significant value in die because of a network attack.

Here is my suggestion:
15% stake in Protoshares V2 which is a hybrid Proof-of-Work/Proof-of-Stake. This honors the original social contact to the community and the miners, plus a bonus. Also shorten the re-target time, and perhaps use the new version of momentum. Protoshares can laugh as botnets start to have a bad day, miners will be happy as they don't get squeezed. Current investors can now earn "dividends" even before the BitShares release. Also makes us resistant to 51% attacks.

Bytemaster can up with a next gen Proof-of-Stake system, so I'm talking with the creator of Proof-of-Stake to see what he says. I think the 5+ crypto-currencies will proof-of-stake will implement it. Its that good. It's kind of funny that everything we come up with here has major implications on the entire cryptocurrency world.

15% sake in AngelShares. Why do we need AngelShares? Simple if want a talented C++ developer making an average of $89,280(2011), we need to at least match that to get he/she to drop what they are doing. Byte estimated that around $1 million is currently being spend on mining right now. Unless you have a rig(I do), I'd much rather those funds to go development than Amazon EC2. So if we were to make similar numbers on AngelShares we could pretty much double the company overnight.

tldr; Hybrid Proof-of-Stake/Proof-of-Work is probably good for everyone. AngleShares good because it speeds things up.
tldr2; Will offer 1 PTS if someone can find a fatal flaw in my argument. 


Note that hybrid will take much more time. I say we keep Protoshares as it is, then release the upgraded Protoshares after we get Keyotee out.

+1 this really good !!! but  like luckybit said who controls the allocation of the funds?

Offline Lighthouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Making a Market in PTS since 11/06/2013
    • View Profile
    • Lighthouse Bulk Orders and Trusted Escrow (Closed)
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #185 on: December 16, 2013, 01:40:59 am »
Why would we think an upgraded version of momentum wouldn't be minable by cloud or botnets?   Has any actual innovation been made, I must have missed it
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline que23

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #186 on: December 16, 2013, 01:44:32 am »
Why would we think an upgraded version of momentum wouldn't be minable by cloud or botnets?   Has any actual innovation been made, I must have missed it

It's all explained on another thread.
PTS: Pa75dEzGkMcnM85hRMbdKiS1YdF81rnSCF

Offline Lighthouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Making a Market in PTS since 11/06/2013
    • View Profile
    • Lighthouse Bulk Orders and Trusted Escrow (Closed)
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #187 on: December 16, 2013, 01:45:03 am »
Link?
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline que23

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 01:51:00 am by que23 »
PTS: Pa75dEzGkMcnM85hRMbdKiS1YdF81rnSCF

Offline fuzzy

Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #189 on: December 16, 2013, 01:49:19 am »
off-topic...but this thread is heated.  sometimes its good to remember why we are all here...

And we all know why...but sometimes we need a reminder.  Hope this finds you all well.  I'm holding and buying, because I believe in this community.  F not believing...the only time to not believe is when people stop caring.  Obviously, that is not the case. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8Fwiy0Bkc

Peace and Love to all you guys.  You have become a family to me. 
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline devilfish

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #190 on: December 16, 2013, 01:55:05 am »
Well this escalated quickly....i'll read the 7 new pages when I get home but I can only assume this idea is dead in the water now
BTC: 1MqCxQ2qD7ZuS3ELFY43wfaBTbA2XkYwDP
PTS: PiuFEJHz6zScALgPWzcu2SDKtWJW4cnUFi
XPM: Af5qzgsEwWaHZdGUq8dUoHkhmH4XBmnGW9

Offline que23

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #191 on: December 16, 2013, 01:55:48 am »
off-topic...but this thread is heated.  sometimes its good to remember why we are all here...

And we all know why...but sometimes we need a reminder.  Hope this finds you all well.  I'm holding and buying, because I believe in this community.  F not believing...the only time to not believe is when people stop caring.  Obviously, that is not the case. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8Fwiy0Bkc

Peace and Love to all you guys.  You have become a family to me.

Thanks fuznuts. Text always make the things we say look harsh. The PTS community has a lot of really smart people involved so I don't see this turning into a name calling thing anytime soon. It's good to challenge each others positions. Happy Holidays!
PTS: Pa75dEzGkMcnM85hRMbdKiS1YdF81rnSCF

Offline que23

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #192 on: December 16, 2013, 01:57:35 am »
Well this escalated quickly....i'll read the 7 new pages when I get home but I can only assume this idea is dead in the water now

I don't know what deal you're talking about. There are several ideas on the table. And things aren't that heated. I'm having fun.
PTS: Pa75dEzGkMcnM85hRMbdKiS1YdF81rnSCF

Offline phoenix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #193 on: December 16, 2013, 01:58:28 am »
off-topic...but this thread is heated.  sometimes its good to remember why we are all here...

And we all know why...but sometimes we need a reminder.  Hope this finds you all well.  I'm holding and buying, because I believe in this community.  F not believing...the only time to not believe is when people stop caring.  Obviously, that is not the case. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8Fwiy0Bkc

Peace and Love to all you guys.  You have become a family to me.

Thanks fuznuts, I agree that things have become heated, but everyone seems to be staying relatively sane. Merry Christmas to you all, and a happy new year!
Protoshares: Pg5EhSZEXHFjdFUzpxJbm91UtA54iUuDvt
Bitmessage: BM-NBrGi2V3BZ8REnJM7FPxUjjkQp7V5D28

Offline devilfish

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Angel Shares Feedback Requested
« Reply #194 on: December 16, 2013, 02:05:13 am »
Well this escalated quickly....i'll read the 7 new pages when I get home but I can only assume this idea is dead in the water now

I don't know what deal you're talking about. There are several ideas on the table. And things aren't that heated. I'm having fun.

Bytemasters initial proposal

Where did I say things were heated?
BTC: 1MqCxQ2qD7ZuS3ELFY43wfaBTbA2XkYwDP
PTS: PiuFEJHz6zScALgPWzcu2SDKtWJW4cnUFi
XPM: Af5qzgsEwWaHZdGUq8dUoHkhmH4XBmnGW9