Author Topic: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]  (Read 4395 times)

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Offline que23

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2013, 04:52:25 am »
Can't agree more with luckybit. That is something I want to express, but still not have deep and clear thought, stick in mouse.

BTW, in DAC, people have money resources and labor/mining resources, they may want to contribute and maybe return. But some labor resources are not easy to transform to money, but can have the same effect of contribute to DACs. E.g. I work daily from Mon to Fri, I would like to contribute my resource and time to DACs on Sta. and Sun even if it has less ROI, but it is not easy for me to do boring works on weekend for money, and using these money to invest in.

I use the term "labor", but don't like it, the community have many other resources, ideas, feedback, thoughts, smart guys, It's also a waste not to use them.

I was attracted in the community by the Mission(http://invictus-innovations.com/mission/) page of 3I's website, it says that "Centralization tends to corrupt. And absolute centralization corrupts absolutely." But I do not understand why we should do the decentralization revolution in a centralize way.

I've updated my post, make sure to check it out. AngelShares will not centralize anything. As soon as more DAC teams are ready to go, there will be competition. If you don't like how things are going with one team, then you can invest in a new idea or team. Invictus actually wants you to do this. They would love for you to punish bad actors.
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Offline Amazon

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 03:12:56 pm »

{Que23}
Now, It's my understanding that AngelShares will be tradable. This really changes everything if they are and takes away a lot of the worry about centralization. As soon as some of the competing DACs are ready to move forward, then we will have real competition within this space. Don't like BitShares? Don't think it's adding value to your ProtoShares? Then swap your Invictus Angelshares for some new developer's AngelShares. If one DAC can't get Angels to invest, then there's something wrong with the idea or the team. If a team of Developers starts doing things you don't like, swap out your DevXAngelShares for Invictus AngelShares. Better trade fast, because if they're really screwing up, then their AngelShares will go to zero and they will have a very hard time finding new investors. Competition! It solves so many problems.

I am not sure making AngleShares tradable is a good idea, it will have cascading effect on Protoshares, could be good, could be very bad.
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Offline que23

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 03:27:29 pm »

{Que23}
Now, It's my understanding that AngelShares will be tradable. This really changes everything if they are and takes away a lot of the worry about centralization. As soon as some of the competing DACs are ready to move forward, then we will have real competition within this space. Don't like BitShares? Don't think it's adding value to your ProtoShares? Then swap your Invictus Angelshares for some new developer's AngelShares. If one DAC can't get Angels to invest, then there's something wrong with the idea or the team. If a team of Developers starts doing things you don't like, swap out your DevXAngelShares for Invictus AngelShares. Better trade fast, because if they're really screwing up, then their AngelShares will go to zero and they will have a very hard time finding new investors. Competition! It solves so many problems.

I am not sure making AngleShares tradable is a good idea, it will have cascading effect on Protoshares, could be good, could be very bad.

The reason you want PTS, the reason I want them is it protects you from people just forking any of the open source DACs and running with it. As we've seen with Bitcoin, the network effect is very powerful. So, if someone tried to take Bitshares without honouring PTS holders, it would be an uphill battle for that person or group. We already have a strong community of PTS holders and soon to be AngelShare holders. But AngelShares are different, they are for funding. Where PTS keeps the whole DAC project together, AngelShares keeps the teams competing. After AngelShares, we don't actually need invictus anymore. If they screw up bitshares and someone forks it and does it better and honours PTS holders, then we can just stop buying Invictus AngelShares. Better than that, we can trade them for the new teams AngelShares. Invictus really thought of everything when they create PTS(I'm thinking they should have made more), and AngelShares just makes our situation so much better, because now we can take this project anywhere. The project is portable.
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Offline 麥可貓

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 05:09:57 pm »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2013, 06:34:40 pm »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

If you are from China as your name suggests, and the Chinese government bans you from buying Bitcoins with fiat, how would you obtain Bitshares if you cannot mine them and cannot directly work for them?

Am I the only one who can see this as the ultimate chokepoint?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 06:38:39 pm by luckybit »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2013, 07:08:09 pm »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

If you are from China as your name suggests, and the Chinese government bans you from buying Bitcoins with fiat, how would you obtain Bitshares if you cannot mine them and cannot directly work for them?

Am I the only one who can see this as the ultimate chokepoint?

Because BitCNY will trade in a narrow range vs CNY it is much easier to find someone in your locality willing to do a trade.   Thus Local Bitcoins style on/off ramps are much more efficient than they are with BTC.     I think we all need to assume that buying coins from centralized exchanges will be illegal everywhere and thus work on decentralized alternatives.

Besides, mining could only allow you to "BUY" about $20 per month per computer which is worthless if you want to buy $10,000 in one day.
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Offline 麥可貓

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 07:19:06 pm »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

If you are from China as your name suggests, and the Chinese government bans you from buying Bitcoins with fiat, how would you obtain Bitshares if you cannot mine them and cannot directly work for them?

Am I the only one who can see this as the ultimate chokepoint?

For this issue, I have two suggestions:

1.Workaround/playaround (depending on your angle of view) of the statement of PBOC
According to the statement from PBOC,  and I quote:
"各金融机构和支付机构不得开展与比特币相关的业务"
i. e.  Financial and payment institutes are not allowed to do business related to bitcoin.
(http://goo.gl/F9FRxr)
I take this message as one can still exchange fiat currency with Cryptocurrency in China if there is no financial or payment institutes involved.
Practically,  I can sell my bitcoins in small amount to some buyer in China mediated by some OTC exchange,  which works just like Localbitcoins.com.
I know the China goverment can still bans OTC exchanges,  so I am looking forward to distributed exchanges that cannot be recognized as exchanges or too hard to ban.

2. 3I registers as a physical company,  and emploee can choose to get salary directly in this share-as-salary or in fiat currency according to current exchange rate.  This method means the company should pre-exhange this share outside of countries banned to do so.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 07:44:39 pm by 麥可貓 »
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Offline que23

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2013, 01:54:18 am »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

The big picture: Everyone here is really keen on decentralization. But, there's a problem. Invictus is a centralized company. What to do? Well, because Invictus loves decentralized entities too, they came up with the idea of ProtoShares. ProtoShares does not benefit Invictus. They mine them just like everyone else does. If they sold the PTS, then they would have no stake in the future of DACs. Now, this is important. The future of DACs. Nothing guarantees that Invictus will be a part of that future. The projects are open source. Anyone can copy them and start their own DAC. If this happened, then it would also benefit the new company to honor the PTS social promise/contract. If they didn't, that company would have to start a whole new community fresh. They would have no network effect to propel them.

Now, Invictus needs funding. Every company needs funding. What to do? AngelShares gives any team of DAC developers a chance at funding. If the idea is good and the team is good, then funding should be easy to obtain. However, if the team starts to fail (this includes invictus) then people can stop buying the AngelShares and even trade them for another team of developer's AngelShares.

PTS is the glue that binds the DAC movement. AngelShares is the engine that move it forward. Technically, any team of Developers is free to release their AngelShares however they want. Invictus hasn't officially released their AngelShare model but it seems to be a system where you pay them to mine Invictus AngleShares for you.
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Offline 麥可貓

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2013, 06:50:57 am »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

The big picture: Everyone here is really keen on decentralization. But, there's a problem. Invictus is a centralized company. What to do? Well, because Invictus loves decentralized entities too, they came up with the idea of ProtoShares. ProtoShares does not benefit Invictus. They mine them just like everyone else does. If they sold the PTS, then they would have no stake in the future of DACs. Now, this is important. The future of DACs. Nothing guarantees that Invictus will be a part of that future. The projects are open source. Anyone can copy them and start their own DAC. If this happened, then it would also benefit the new company to honor the PTS social promise/contract. If they didn't, that company would have to start a whole new community fresh. They would have no network effect to propel them.

Now, Invictus needs funding. Every company needs funding. What to do? AngelShares gives any team of DAC developers a chance at funding. If the idea is good and the team is good, then funding should be easy to obtain. However, if the team starts to fail (this includes invictus) then people can stop buying the AngelShares and even trade them for another team of developer's AngelShares.

PTS is the glue that binds the DAC movement. AngelShares is the engine that move it forward. Technically, any team of Developers is free to release their AngelShares however they want. Invictus hasn't officially released their AngelShare model but it seems to be a system where you pay them to mine Invictus AngleShares for you.

Exactly. The key is every DAC/project needs funding.

As a donor,  one may wanna be specific where his money goes:
1. To the DAC(3I) at kickstarting stage.  This purpose is served well by PTS for 3I.
2. To a project of the DAC.  This could be where angleshares go.

So PTS is like the root dorectory of '3I system' and angleshares are sub-folders.
In this way,  angleshares should not be recognized as duplicate/dilution of PTS.
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2013, 06:55:23 am »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

The big picture: Everyone here is really keen on decentralization. But, there's a problem. Invictus is a centralized company. What to do? Well, because Invictus loves decentralized entities too, they came up with the idea of ProtoShares. ProtoShares does not benefit Invictus. They mine them just like everyone else does. If they sold the PTS, then they would have no stake in the future of DACs. Now, this is important. The future of DACs. Nothing guarantees that Invictus will be a part of that future. The projects are open source. Anyone can copy them and start their own DAC. If this happened, then it would also benefit the new company to honor the PTS social promise/contract. If they didn't, that company would have to start a whole new community fresh. They would have no network effect to propel them.

Now, Invictus needs funding. Every company needs funding. What to do? AngelShares gives any team of DAC developers a chance at funding. If the idea is good and the team is good, then funding should be easy to obtain. However, if the team starts to fail (this includes invictus) then people can stop buying the AngelShares and even trade them for another team of developer's AngelShares.

PTS is the glue that binds the DAC movement. AngelShares is the engine that move it forward. Technically, any team of Developers is free to release their AngelShares however they want. Invictus hasn't officially released their AngelShare model but it seems to be a system where you pay them to mine Invictus AngleShares for you.

You made a key point which can resolve a lot of these issues. You said Angelshares will be tradable. If that is the case then miners will be happy because they'll be able to trade for Angelshares on crypsy. If Bitshares are put on some exchanges too such as crypsy then that would work for people who have LTC or BTC or who need some other altcoin for a specific purpose.

Mining altcoins isn't bad, it's just there are too many worthless clone coins which don't matter being mined. Some mined altcoins will have enough value to be traded.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 07:08:54 am by luckybit »
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Offline que23

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2013, 07:06:00 am »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

The big picture: Everyone here is really keen on decentralization. But, there's a problem. Invictus is a centralized company. What to do? Well, because Invictus loves decentralized entities too, they came up with the idea of ProtoShares. ProtoShares does not benefit Invictus. They mine them just like everyone else does. If they sold the PTS, then they would have no stake in the future of DACs. Now, this is important. The future of DACs. Nothing guarantees that Invictus will be a part of that future. The projects are open source. Anyone can copy them and start their own DAC. If this happened, then it would also benefit the new company to honor the PTS social promise/contract. If they didn't, that company would have to start a whole new community fresh. They would have no network effect to propel them.

Now, Invictus needs funding. Every company needs funding. What to do? AngelShares gives any team of DAC developers a chance at funding. If the idea is good and the team is good, then funding should be easy to obtain. However, if the team starts to fail (this includes invictus) then people can stop buying the AngelShares and even trade them for another team of developer's AngelShares.

PTS is the glue that binds the DAC movement. AngelShares is the engine that move it forward. Technically, any team of Developers is free to release their AngelShares however they want. Invictus hasn't officially released their AngelShare model but it seems to be a system where you pay them to mine Invictus AngleShares for you.

You made a key point which can resolve a lot of these issues. You said Angelshares will be tradeable. If that is the case then miners will be happy because they'll be able to trade for Angelshares on crypsy. If Bitshares is put on some exchanges too such as crypsy then that would work for people who have LTC or BTC or who need some other altcoin for a specific purpose.

Mining altcoins isn't bad, it's just there are too many worthless clone coins which don't matter being mined. Some mined altcoins will have enough value to be traded.

I'm getting excited about this too. What we really need now are more Developers.
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2013, 07:18:41 am »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

The big picture: Everyone here is really keen on decentralization. But, there's a problem. Invictus is a centralized company. What to do? Well, because Invictus loves decentralized entities too, they came up with the idea of ProtoShares. ProtoShares does not benefit Invictus. They mine them just like everyone else does. If they sold the PTS, then they would have no stake in the future of DACs. Now, this is important. The future of DACs. Nothing guarantees that Invictus will be a part of that future. The projects are open source. Anyone can copy them and start their own DAC. If this happened, then it would also benefit the new company to honor the PTS social promise/contract. If they didn't, that company would have to start a whole new community fresh. They would have no network effect to propel them.

Now, Invictus needs funding. Every company needs funding. What to do? AngelShares gives any team of DAC developers a chance at funding. If the idea is good and the team is good, then funding should be easy to obtain. However, if the team starts to fail (this includes invictus) then people can stop buying the AngelShares and even trade them for another team of developer's AngelShares.

PTS is the glue that binds the DAC movement. AngelShares is the engine that move it forward. Technically, any team of Developers is free to release their AngelShares however they want. Invictus hasn't officially released their AngelShare model but it seems to be a system where you pay them to mine Invictus AngleShares for you.

Exactly. The key is every DAC/project needs funding.

As a donor,  one may wanna be specific where his money goes:
1. To the DAC(3I) at kickstarting stage.  This purpose is served well by PTS for 3I.
2. To a project of the DAC.  This could be where angleshares go.

So PTS is like the root dorectory of '3I system' and angleshares are sub-folders.
In this way,  angleshares should not be recognized as duplicate/dilution of PTS.

The problem with the whole Angelshares thing is we don't really want to trust a centralized company even if its 3I. Look at what happened to Bitfunder, or BTCT.

3I is in the United States just like those others were. If it's done following the Mastercoin model then it could work but if it's traded on an exchange then it might have legal vulnerability. I just don't know and this needs more planning.

Mining doesn't have any of these risks but I do understand the problem of raising funds and that you need some kind of Kickstarter.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 07:20:12 am by luckybit »
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Offline que23

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2013, 07:42:00 am »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

The big picture: Everyone here is really keen on decentralization. But, there's a problem. Invictus is a centralized company. What to do? Well, because Invictus loves decentralized entities too, they came up with the idea of ProtoShares. ProtoShares does not benefit Invictus. They mine them just like everyone else does. If they sold the PTS, then they would have no stake in the future of DACs. Now, this is important. The future of DACs. Nothing guarantees that Invictus will be a part of that future. The projects are open source. Anyone can copy them and start their own DAC. If this happened, then it would also benefit the new company to honor the PTS social promise/contract. If they didn't, that company would have to start a whole new community fresh. They would have no network effect to propel them.

Now, Invictus needs funding. Every company needs funding. What to do? AngelShares gives any team of DAC developers a chance at funding. If the idea is good and the team is good, then funding should be easy to obtain. However, if the team starts to fail (this includes invictus) then people can stop buying the AngelShares and even trade them for another team of developer's AngelShares.

PTS is the glue that binds the DAC movement. AngelShares is the engine that move it forward. Technically, any team of Developers is free to release their AngelShares however they want. Invictus hasn't officially released their AngelShare model but it seems to be a system where you pay them to mine Invictus AngleShares for you.

Exactly. The key is every DAC/project needs funding.

As a donor,  one may wanna be specific where his money goes:
1. To the DAC(3I) at kickstarting stage.  This purpose is served well by PTS for 3I.
2. To a project of the DAC.  This could be where angleshares go.

So PTS is like the root dorectory of '3I system' and angleshares are sub-folders.
In this way,  angleshares should not be recognized as duplicate/dilution of PTS.

1. 3I doesn't profit or benefit from PTS. Even if they sold all their PTS, it wouldn't be enough to fund things. Note, Invictus already has some outside funding.
2. AngelShares funds go to the DAC team. If you were to get Invictus AngelShares, you would fund the expansion of Invictus. Get another team's AngelShares, you would fund that team.
3. You did give me the idea that it might still be a good idea for a team to release it's own ProtoShares. It would be up to the team.
PTS: Pa75dEzGkMcnM85hRMbdKiS1YdF81rnSCF

Offline que23

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2013, 07:45:29 am »
Forgive me if I mis-understand something,
but I think angleshares could be a natural part of 3I as an DAC,
just like the model they have proposed before.

For example,  a possible model should be like this:
1. Every software project of 3I should have a new (angle)share/coin branched from the mother DAC share, and use coding as POW because the new project is directly benifited by coding itself. There is already some software available like Bithub to do this (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/BitHub)
2. This new share should accept as many currencies as possible,  and donors acquire this new share in current exchange rate. In this way,  this project is funded and the new share is backed by the donated money,  just like fiat currencies are backed by gold.
3. To honor protoshare,  protoshare holders should have 1:1 amount of this new share relative to their protoshares.

And these are also the three ways to obtain such new share
(i. e. 1. Mining by coding 2. Exchange by funding 3. obtain PTS)

The big picture: Everyone here is really keen on decentralization. But, there's a problem. Invictus is a centralized company. What to do? Well, because Invictus loves decentralized entities too, they came up with the idea of ProtoShares. ProtoShares does not benefit Invictus. They mine them just like everyone else does. If they sold the PTS, then they would have no stake in the future of DACs. Now, this is important. The future of DACs. Nothing guarantees that Invictus will be a part of that future. The projects are open source. Anyone can copy them and start their own DAC. If this happened, then it would also benefit the new company to honor the PTS social promise/contract. If they didn't, that company would have to start a whole new community fresh. They would have no network effect to propel them.

Now, Invictus needs funding. Every company needs funding. What to do? AngelShares gives any team of DAC developers a chance at funding. If the idea is good and the team is good, then funding should be easy to obtain. However, if the team starts to fail (this includes invictus) then people can stop buying the AngelShares and even trade them for another team of developer's AngelShares.

PTS is the glue that binds the DAC movement. AngelShares is the engine that move it forward. Technically, any team of Developers is free to release their AngelShares however they want. Invictus hasn't officially released their AngelShare model but it seems to be a system where you pay them to mine Invictus AngleShares for you.

Exactly. The key is every DAC/project needs funding.

As a donor,  one may wanna be specific where his money goes:
1. To the DAC(3I) at kickstarting stage.  This purpose is served well by PTS for 3I.
2. To a project of the DAC.  This could be where angleshares go.

So PTS is like the root dorectory of '3I system' and angleshares are sub-folders.
In this way,  angleshares should not be recognized as duplicate/dilution of PTS.

The problem with the whole Angelshares thing is we don't really want to trust a centralized company even if its 3I. Look at what happened to Bitfunder, or BTCT.

3I is in the United States just like those others were. If it's done following the Mastercoin model then it could work but if it's traded on an exchange then it might have legal vulnerability. I just don't know and this needs more planning.

Mining doesn't have any of these risks but I do understand the problem of raising funds and that you need some kind of Kickstarter.
]

I do worry some about the legal stuff. I had heard that they were looking into retaining legal help. But I don't know anything about it.
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Offline coolspeed

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Re: Why we need Angel Shares[UPDATED Dec 18]
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2013, 09:04:56 am »
Quote
3. You did give me the idea that it might still be a good idea for a team to release it's own ProtoShares. It would be up to the team.

A new team needs another AngelSahres, not another Protoshares.
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