Bter hacked. PTS, bitassets withdrawal successful. Share you experience.

[Frodo]

It's true the wallet is still not usable for a broad audience. But simply throwing more resources at it is not necessarily going to help (from a short term point of view). I'm just saying mythical man month.

[LRENZ]

We have a product and spent more than enough time and resources building it and trying to market it to no avail.

WRONG. The Wallet still doesn't work for most people,. Its not even worth marketing it yet because it sucks. The 2m could be spent on devs instead. Yall are deluded, this buyout idea is beyond ridiculous!!

[CLains]

What Bter might need/want,
1. Bter might need to sell some of their stock to raise capital, opportunity1.
2. Bter might want to integrate with/transition to a decentralized accounting/exchange, opportunity2.

The word "buyout" seems to confuse the issue here.

What BitShares might need/want,
3. BitShares might need to pay an (on/off-ramp) exchange to jumpstart bitAsset userbase.
4. BitShares might want to integrate with a centralized exchange (front-end) like Bter.

[lil_jay890]

1. We are way too disorganized and much too limited manpower wise to do the due diligence and have the capacity to run a takeover of an exchange like bter.
2.IF bter even floats the idea of a buyout, its going to cost well over the 7k bitcoins they lost... This exchange would prolly get gobbled up for 10mil minimum. Most likely by a single player with a net worth 10 times our market cap.

[D4vegee]

How do BTER feel about this proposed takeover? Have they a clue this is an idea within the BTS community? Wouldn't it be best to sound them out first before this thread keeps getting longer and longer.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[monsterer]

2M may sounds like a large number, but without putting it in context perception of size is quite arbitrary.
Bitshares is a network with a 20M market cap down from a 80M market cap at its peak.

The best you can hope to do with this buyout is to restore bitshares market cap to what it was the day before they went under, since you still are not creating any extra demand.

Whether a company is a DAC or not is more about the company structure itself than about what it does as economic activity. If ownership, power structure, decision making and cash flows management are decentralized, you already have a DAC even if what it does as economic activity is highly centralized.

I think you are confusing DAC with cooperative. A DAC is autonomous, this would be entirely not.

[klosure]

$2M is a lot of money to pay for a bunch of pissed off customers.

2M may sounds like a large number, but without putting it in context perception of size is quite arbitrary.
Bitshares is a network with a 20M market cap down from a 80M market cap at its peak.
What created that 60M slump is variation in demand. And demand derives from customer base.
When you put back things in perspective, decupling our customer base for 2M is cheap (and as dicussed above, we really only need 1M for a majority stake, and even less than that would give us enough influence to push our agenda).

Also, I fail to see how you can restructure BTER as a DAC without it turning into what bitshares already is, i.e. decentralised exchange?

Whether a company is a DAC or not is more about the company structure itself than about what it does as economic activity. If ownership, power structure, decision making and cash flows management are decentralized, you already have a DAC even if what it does as economic activity is highly centralized.

[monsterer]

$2M is a lot of money to pay for a bunch of pissed off customers. Also, I fail to see how you can restructure BTER as a DAC without it turning into what bitshares already is, i.e. decentralised exchange?

[klosure]

1. you don't buy the whole user base cause after what happened they have loose trust to them so you don't known what % will come back,  except for withdrawing their funds.

This is a risk point, but it can be greatly mitigated with the proper communication strategy. We must email every users, put a disclaimer at first relogin and make sure there is ample news coverage about the fact BTER has been restructured and is now operating under a new paradigm whereby all important decisions are being peer-reviewed and approved by delegates elected by shareholders, and cold wallets funds are held in escrow under control of a trustless decentralized network. Users who understand that it has become technically impossible to steel the cold wallet funds or steer the company out of the right path will stay and spead the word. There will be some departures, but most customers will probably come back once the dust settles.

2. What if tomorrow they give you enough  prove that  it was an inside job? Will you continue to want to buy them out?

I doubt that the theft was done by the founders or at least not in a concerted manner for one simple reason: the BTER brand and business is worth more than the 7170 BTC that were stolen. If it's an insider job, it's more likely the deed of an isolated person, either a single founder with significantly less than 7170 BTC worth of BTER shares, or someone from the staff. That makes a big difference because in one case the company is corrupt, while in the other case the company is honest but has a black sheep in its ranks.

So to answer your question, if there is someday enough proof of what happened, and it's indeed a black sheep doing the job unbeknownst from the rest of the company, that person will be prosecuted and the company will be able to continue operating normally.

Now, it's also possible that BTER hasn't said everything and that the situation was already critical before the alledged hack (undisclosed earlier losses, bad trading decisions with customer funds, running on fractional reserve etc..). In that case, running with the funds could be a concerted decision from the founders given that the company was already virtually bankrupt. If that's the case though, there will be a glaring mismatch between customer balances and available funds when we inspect their finances, so obviously we won't proceed with the acquisition. Actually in that case, I would expect that BTER will refuse the bailout in first place as this would get them exposed.

3.After you buy them,  how can you be sure that you get not  hacked again ? 

See point one. The new BTER will be using multisig coldstorage requiring signatures from delegates of the BTER DAC as well as at least one signature from a BTER staff. With that setup, the delegates would need to collude with the operational staff to steal the funds and the identity of the culprits would be know at the time they broadcast the transaction. In other words, it will be virtually impossible to steal the funds and very possible to identify and prosecute the guilty parties should that very unlikely case arise.

tl;dr: we don't really know what happened so we will need to be very vigilent when we do due diligence and ensure that BTER has full reserves for the customer funds, except for the missing Bitcoins. If there is a blacksheep in the ranks and he doesn't get nailed in the aftermath of the hack, he won't be able to reoffend anyway since going forward cold wallets will be controlled by the DAC.

[donkeypong]

If you're going to buy, then aim for something Poloniex-sized (not that I'm a fan of that particular exchange). Bter is way too damn big and expensive. Plus, they'll make money even with this hack, so why would they want to can that business model and sell to us?

[liondani]

@klosure
1. you don't buy the whole user base cause after what happened they have loose trust to them so you don't known what % will come back,  except for withdrawing their funds.
2. What if tomorrow they give you enough  prove that  it was an inside job? Will you continue to want to buy them out?
3.After you buy them,  how can you be sure that you get not  hacked again ? 


Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

[joele]

Strong argument but big responsibilities to Bitshares Devs if this happen.
We need a voting mechanism to vote if this proposal is good to go or not, who will lead, etc.

[TurkeyLeg]

you really can't think of something better to spend money on

Let me think..
No, I don't see anything more important than having a customer base.
We have a product and spent more than enough time and resources building it and trying to market it to no avail. It's about time to stop chasing our tail and realize that we need to buy a customer base.

Buying a customer base / business goodwill is something normal in business when you have a product and marketing isn't your strong point or something you want to waste time and resource with. Ask your doctor, your dentist, your notary, your lawyer... I think by now we can say without hesitation that marketing isn't our strong point. With the rise of other 2nd gen crypto, it's obvious that time is of the essence. We are typically in the situation where buying our customer base would be a wise move.

that we would have the bandwidth to run an entire exchange

BTER has the bandwidth to run itself. We are not talking about dismantling BTER but recapitalizing it, migrating it to a DAC paradigm so that we can control board decisions and fund movements, and running it at arms length thereafter.

And how exactly did you plan to raise $2m again?

The same way every other DAC is raising similar figures: by running a crowd sale. Interested parties can invest directly. Other DACs can also take a stake by voting a dilution, use the proceeds to purchase BTER stake and airdrop it on their own shareholders. BTER has hands on experience of doing snapshoting and airdrops so they could even manage that for us. I don't think we will need to collect 2M. BTER founders and investors will probably want to retain some stake and other risk takers from the crypto community will probably invest as well. Given how NXT got involved last time BTER got hacked, I they probably want to participate to the crowdsale as well. Other cryptos could also make a deal with BTER to be listed in exchange of their participation.

So long as BTER survives, is restructured as a Bitshares DAC and we as a community own a sufficient stake to vote a few delegates at a board seat and influence its future evolution, it's a winning move for us. We don't even need to start with a control stake: since BTER shares will be exchange traded we can decide later to bid for more stake individually or as a community. It could be as low as 1M USD or even lower depending on how much they need to stay in business and absorb the loss.

Again it's not only a huge opportunity to get a large user base and save our main gateway but also a unique chance to showcase our technology, show to the world how DACs are the future of business and establish Bishares as the go-to launchpad for future entrepreneurs.

  I agree, a strong argument here for the upside and feasibility.

[fuzzy]

you really can't think of something better to spend money on

Let me think..
No, I don't see anything more important than having a customer base.
We have a product and spent more than enough time and resources building it and trying to market it to no avail. It's about time to stop chasing our tail and realize that we need to buy a customer base.

Buying a customer base / business goodwill is something normal in business when you have a product and marketing isn't your strong point or something you want to waste time and resource with. Ask your doctor, your dentist, your notary, your lawyer... I think by now we can say without hesitation that marketing isn't our strong point. With the rise of other 2nd gen crypto, it's obvious that time is of the essence. We are typically in the situation where buying our customer base would be a wise move.

that we would have the bandwidth to run an entire exchange

BTER has the bandwidth to run itself. We are not talking about dismantling BTER but recapitalizing it, migrating it to a DAC paradigm so that we can control board decisions and fund movements, and running it at arms length thereafter.

And how exactly did you plan to raise $2m again?

The same way every other DAC is raising similar figures: by running a crowd sale. Interested parties can invest directly. Other DACs can also take a stake by voting a dilution, use the proceeds to purchase BTER stake and airdrop it on their own shareholders. BTER has hands on experience of doing snapshoting and airdrops so they could even manage that for us. I don't think we will need to collect 2M. BTER founders and investors will probably want to retain some stake and other risk takers from the crypto community will probably invest as well. Given how NXT got involved last time BTER got hacked, I they probably want to participate to the crowdsale as well. Other cryptos could also make a deal with BTER to be listed in exchange of their participation.

So long as BTER survives, is restructured as a Bitshares DAC and we as a community own a sufficient stake to vote a few delegates at a board seat and influence its future evolution, it's a winning move for us. We don't even need to start with a control stake: since BTER shares will be exchange traded we can decide later to bid for more stake individually or as a community. It could be as low as 1M USD or even lower depending on how much they need to stay in business and absorb the loss.

Again it's not only a huge opportunity to get a large user base and save our main gateway but also a unique chance to showcase our technology, show to the world how DACs are the future of business and establish Bishares as the go-to launchpad for future entrepreneurs.

Your arguments are certainly strong. 

[klosure]

you really can't think of something better to spend money on

Let me think..
No, I don't see anything more important than having a customer base.
We have a product and spent more than enough time and resources building it and trying to market it to no avail. It's about time to stop chasing our tail and realize that we need to buy a customer base.

Buying a customer base / business goodwill is something normal in business when you have a product and marketing isn't your strong point or something you want to waste time and resource with. Ask your doctor, your dentist, your notary, your lawyer... I think by now we can say without hesitation that marketing isn't our strong point. With the rise of other 2nd gen crypto, it's obvious that time is of the essence. We are typically in the situation where buying our customer base would be a wise move.

that we would have the bandwidth to run an entire exchange

BTER has the bandwidth to run itself. We are not talking about dismantling BTER but recapitalizing it, migrating it to a DAC paradigm so that we can control board decisions and fund movements, and running it at arms length thereafter.

And how exactly did you plan to raise $2m again?

The same way every other DAC is raising similar figures: by running a crowd sale. Interested parties can invest directly. Other DACs can also take a stake by voting a dilution, use the proceeds to purchase BTER stake and airdrop it on their own shareholders. BTER has hands on experience of doing snapshoting and airdrops so they could even manage that for us. I don't think we will need to collect 2M. BTER founders and investors will probably want to retain some stake and other risk takers from the crypto community will probably invest as well. Given how NXT got involved last time BTER got hacked, I they probably want to participate to the crowdsale as well. Other cryptos could also make a deal with BTER to be listed in exchange of their participation.

So long as BTER survives, is restructured as a Bitshares DAC and we as a community own a sufficient stake to vote a few delegates at a board seat and influence its future evolution, it's a winning move for us. We don't even need to start with a control stake: since BTER shares will be exchange traded we can decide later to bid for more stake individually or as a community. It could be as low as 1M USD or even lower depending on how much they need to stay in business and absorb the loss.

Again it's not only a huge opportunity to get a large user base and save our main gateway but also a unique chance to showcase our technology, show to the world how DACs are the future of business and establish Bishares as the go-to launchpad for future entrepreneurs.