Author Topic: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review  (Read 22009 times)

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Offline lastagile

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2015, 01:40:37 am »

It seems people have to sell bts for bitasset, but they need not to buy bts when they need bts. So the market will face sell presure, but no buy presure. This will drive the bts price all way down. Correct me, if i misunderstand something.
This is exactly what I think



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Offline lastagile

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BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2015, 01:44:00 am »
If we finally put the bitasset 3.0 to real I will go away from BTS.

I have a better proposal, I will sent out latter.


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Offline joele

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2015, 03:14:48 am »
But this is real market action and fair.
Not agree.
What I need to do is:
1. Keeping dump BTS in external market, at the same time buy BitUSD in internal market. This will cause the BTS price fall. (I'm a whale, and have enough BTS)
2. After the price is down  more than 5%(just a example) after 24 hours. I require a settlement in internal market, this will not make BTS price up (no market impact in settlement but only 1% price gap). I will get more BTS than before I buy BitUSD.
3. Buy BTS in external market, (maybe loss a bit BTS compared to before I sell BTS).

The chance is very big that the BTS I earned in step 2 is more than what I lost in step 3. Because In step 2 I will make no market impact with only 1% price gap. In step3 as the BTS price is already drag down by myself, I can buy cheap BTS, even if the price raise when I buy BTS back.  It is likely the price will not raise to the price before Step 1.


That's how traders manipulate low volume asset, and will work specially if no demand for BTS, otherwise still a gamble, there is a 24hrs before you can make settlement and feed price can change not in your favor.

Offline clayop

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2015, 03:40:34 am »
How can BitAssets 3.0 solve "Nobody-wants-to-short" problem in a bear market?
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Offline joele

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2015, 03:47:01 am »
How can BitAssets 3.0 solve "Nobody-wants-to-short" problem in a bear market?

#5 At any time entire market can be settled at the feed price given 30 day notice to be executed only in the event that all USD holders are unwilling to sell anywhere near a fair price. (black swan protection), this settlement can be canceled if the market returns to normal voluntarily.
Thoughts?

Offline xiahui135

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2015, 06:58:45 am »
the longs and shorts are two sides of the market.
we should keep them in balance, so the market can run very long time.

Now in BitAsset, the BTA shorters have an expiring date, but the BTA holders have not. This means holding BTA have advantage than holding BTS(or the bts collateral). So the BTA holders are winner, and BTS price is falling all the way.

In BitAsset 3.0, there is no solid time limit for BTA shorter too. But BTA holders have another advantage: can settle back BTS whenever they want.
And the settlement makes BTA not currencies any more. If we want to create BTA as currencies, then we just need to let BTA can buy BTS whenever they want.
What you called settlement seems not basic function of currencies, but some kind of bond. Correc me if I make mistakes.

EDIT PLUS:
For a healthy market:
if market mainly want to sell, sellers need place lower price orders to match buyers'.This leads the price to go down.
if market mainly want to buy, buyers need place higher price orders to match sellers'. This leads the price to go up.
In BitAsset 3.0, the settlement function make the market do not work normally. Hold BitAsset to get BTS, will not leads BTS price go up, but Hold BTS to get BitAsset leads BTS price to go down.

I suggest we need more consideration.  Maybe just cancel the shorts time limit is enough, and market will do the rest.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 07:20:24 am by xiahui135 »

Offline xiahui135

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #111 on: April 25, 2015, 07:47:45 am »

In effect a short position is a "loan" that is callable based upon price or X day notice.


BTA short position is different from loan.

If you loan from someone, he loan the right to use his resource. You benefit from the loan, and need to pay interest.
But BTA long side sell bts is a market behavior. They get money from this, and can withdraw to their bank account, can buy something. So the long do not have the right to call back.

The market have the right to call back from short. Only when the collateral is not enough.

Offline starspirit

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #112 on: April 25, 2015, 08:05:54 am »

If the market is functioning properly you will see very few settlement requests (the 24+ hour delay means you cannot use settlement to "buy the bottom" of a flash crash with huge volume) and those that want the money NOW will just sell on the normal market.   There would be little incentive to pay interest to avoid a settlement that never happens.

bytemaster, why wouldn't we see frequent settlement requests? Demand continuously fluctuates. Whenever there is enough of a decline in demand and price, sellers or arbitragers would choose to request settlement instead. That's its purpose, in preventing further price decline. Depending on how the bond market is structured, there will also be settlements required when cash holders move to lend longer term.

I still can't think of a better market clearing mechanism than interest if the peg is to be maintained, and we want to mediate swings in supply and demand.

It would be helpful to understand the root issue a bit better. Is your concern that:

a) in principle collateral is a better clearing mechanism than interest
b) there are insurmountable flaws to getting interest to work as a clearing mechanism in this market
c) short term shorts generally won't pay interest, so the zero bound on rates is a limiting factor for proper clearing
d) something else?




 

Offline Chronos

Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #113 on: April 25, 2015, 06:25:14 pm »
Imagine a whale requests settlement for a huge amount of BitUSD, to be cleared in 24 hours. What happens during that time? The whale tries his best to depress prices in order to get a favorable settlement. The low-collateral shorts do one of these:

(1) Try to pump BTS. This is no longer a valuation-driven market. It's bad for the entire ecosystem.
(2) Add collateral to pass the problem to the next guy. This is not a solution.
(3) Do nothing (let's be honest -- most shorts won't notice in time). Whales take advantage until nobody wants to short!

I think that the whale will often get a favorable trade against the shorts: a serious problem with the proposed BitAssets 3.0.

Offline lastagile

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2015, 12:46:38 am »
Bm can come up with such a proposal. I doubt your intelligence on economy


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Offline svk

Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2015, 08:33:02 am »
I'm curious about the black swan protection mechanism, who exactly decides that the whole market needs to settle? And isn't 30 days too long? By that time the whole market could be worth zero, or it could be back to normal, or basically anything could happen.

Also, how would this coexist with the existing bitAssets? Would it simply be a matter of introducing a short_v3 operation etc and the "new" bitUSD will have the same name, or will there be new assets called bitUSD_v2 or something? (stupid name I know, just for the purpose of illustration..)
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2015, 09:47:20 am »
I'm curious about the black swan protection mechanism, who exactly decides that the whole market needs to settle? And isn't 30 days too long? By that time the whole market could be worth zero, or it could be back to normal, or basically anything could happen.

Also, how would this coexist with the existing bitAssets? Would it simply be a matter of introducing a short_v3 operation etc and the "new" bitUSD will have the same name, or will there be new assets called bitUSD_v2 or something? (stupid name I know, just for the purpose of illustration..)

I also want to know about this. Will bitUSD_v2 have the same value as bitUSD_v1 and only a short_v3 will be introduced or bitUSD_v1 will evaporate slowly? In other words is bitUSD_v1 going to become worthless and no one should short anymore bitusd now until the new version is released even if we are bullish on BTS right now?

Offline BTSdac

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2015, 06:06:59 pm »
#1 No explicit short sell price limit
I think it is better to use 1.0 rule. I agree with you that BTA is like to loan. but system must know when offer a loan, and when stop offering a loan .    I think if the supply of BTA is larger than requirement , system should stop to offer loan .  if the price  bitusd:bts<usd:bts (by feed), system can think the supply larger than requirement. stop to offer loan.
but in 3.0 there is No explicit short sell price limit. I don`t know ,what happen .
#2 No pre-set expiration on short positions.
I agree with you , but shorter have to return/partial cover BTA to make the collateral increase to 200% per 30 days if the price of bts decrease ,
#3 Any time someone with USD is unhappy with the current internal market price, they can request settlement at the 99% of feed (a 1% fee) in X days, where X is more than 24 hours.
does this settlement compete with bitusd seller ?
#5 At any time entire market can be settled at the feed price given 30 day notice to be executed only in the event that all USD holders are unwilling to sell anywhere near a fair price. (black swan protection), this settlement can be canceled if the market returns to normal voluntarily.
when ,and system how to judge "all USD holders are unwilling to sell anywhere near a fair price"
what price is a fair price?
and the bad salutation is a bitusd holder would lost his bitusd though he would get equipollence bts at feed price ,but it is a good methods?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 06:17:17 pm by BTSdac »
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Offline pgbit

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2015, 10:01:05 pm »
To clarify, BitAssets 3.0 might replace existing BitAssets eg BitGold with a new hard fork at some stage? Will BitAssets that currently exist be mapped straight into the 3.0 system?

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review
« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2015, 11:20:47 pm »
To clarify, BitAssets 3.0 might replace existing BitAssets eg BitGold with a new hard fork at some stage? Will BitAssets that currently exist be mapped straight into the 3.0 system?

from BM's friday comments on beyond bitcoin: BTA3.0 will coexist with the current system, but BM expects that the new system will be preferred. The old system will naturally wind down, and if it totally winds down it could be disabled with a hardfork.
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