Author Topic: An open proposal to the community and Brian/Dan  (Read 12216 times)

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Offline luckybit

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More on gamification of work

The idea is to make working for a DAC fun and profitable. Interaction with a DAC could essentially be "gaming with a purpose".

In a game there are certain components which if put in place motivate the player to go for a winning experience. Working for a DAC should be fun and rewarding so that as you move up in status, rank, prestige, the rewards increase and you can earn more shares in that DAC or any DAC which accepts the cross-DAC gamification elements. This is necessary because for any kind of important job we need to know that people doing the work are qualified and a badge or certificate of achievement with levels, a belt or whatever you choose for your DAC, it must basically contain a set of properties and value data which signify the level of achievement of that participant over a period of time.

Resumes? gone. Education? Not necessary. You gain experience working for (or playing with) the DACs and gaining achievements. Only by working for DACs can it allow you to go to any other DAC to work. In my opinion these gamification elements like awards, trinkets, badges, credits, are essential, proven to work and make up the serious games movement.

References
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serious_game
http://gamification-research.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Smith.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_with_a_purpose
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 02:05:56 am by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

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Basically what I'm saying is that you need to put in more factors in your success-equation of a DAC. Talent is not only convinced by the monetary compensation they receive - "rational" people are more convinced of the intentions and purpose of a project.
The current demographic on this site already believes in the idea and doesn't have to be convinced. It seems to me it's just a matter of getting some money to pay some of the people already here rather than a situation where we have to attract people from elsewhere. The people who believe have bills to pay and families to feed just like everyone else.
The example of Jonestown was included to articulate how far you can get with a deliberate usage of these psychological compliance techniques. Obviously you will not want to convince potential participants to commit suicide for you - you want to convince them of your intentions and their purpose in the project. Only if you state the WHY, HOW and WHAT you will get an A-Team to join your project - and with such, you can get them to comply to your request (Lets assume you do not have enough money to pay a programmer the current industry standard. So you want to convince them to take less).
No you really can't. If a programmer has to pay their rent and other bills you might be able to convince them to take a little bit less in $ but you're ignoring the high appreciation rate of a successful DAC. When you look at start-ups a lot of them pay in stock, it's really no different. The stock might turn out to be worthless or it might make them millionaires. At the time you give them the stock they have the choice to sell it to pay their bills and decrease their risk or save if you give them enough stock they could pay their bills and have some to save which is actually the ideal situation.

If you're short on money then you can outsource to people in countries where it's cheaper but I don't see how this particular community would be short on money if we had crowd funding. Mastercoin raised a million dollars at the time which has appreciated greatly and is now worth millions more. I think paying at whatever the market rate (or slightly below) will not be a problem because the crypto assets you're dealing with don't suffer from the problems associated with the dollar or euro.
If these techniques are used by the wrong person they can be a real menace to the platform. You probably heard of "Kony 2012". A movement that caused millions of people to care about Uganda and their dictator Joseph Kony. People protested (well, they tried to), flyers were scattered across towns and millions of dollars were donated to Invisible Children (which in return, kept like 50%+ of the donated money). All of this was caused because a team of psychologists and cinematographers knew how to create a video that touched people on an emotional basis.
I get it. Psychology does matter. But I think you're looking at a completely different demographic from most here. Most DACs are not charitable organizations and will attract either very greedy institutional investors or people who use Bitcoin and who think it's a cool idea/technology. I don't think this kind of psychological marketing is necessary because Bitcoin for the most part leaves a trail of bread crumbs directly to the DACs. It's real simple, people will be drawn to the DACs as a way to get Bitcoins (or shares in the DAC) and you don't have to motivate by more than that.

If you're after the A-team whatever that is then you might have to use more motivation but how do you define the A-team? I think it depends on the DAC. I'm not discounting the use of psychology. I have advocated switching Bitshares to the smallest denomination in the client and display so that psychologically people feel like they have more or will buy more. I believe it's possible Bitshares could reach parity with Bitcoin and surpass it in price and so in order to have people not think it's too expensive we would be best to adopt the smallest denomination showing the total number of Bitshare units. The idea that Bitshares are scarce is important as well so for marketing you want to market the scarcity of the largest denomination to professional/sophisticated investors.

What I'm advocating against is the use of any kind of dishonesty or purposeful con-artistry and some of the compliance techniques will drive people away because they will be viewed as dishonest. The giveaway thread for example attracted people who wanted something for free and when they found out they had to do something for it they felt like it was a bait and switch. Just because a technique may be temporarily effective for a DAC it does not mean it should be the preferred technique. Being perceived as honest, having a good reputation, are very important (more important than just making $) because there are too many scams.

People felt connected, they thought the same could happen to them and thus wanted to take action - with no compensation. They did it because they believed in it.
There are plenty of documentaries about the economic crisis and the banks. I think if people are looking to try Bitcoin they are already sold on this and don't really need to be sold further but I could be wrong. If people crowd fund documentaries which successfully bring people to different DACs then lets do it. In fact I think documentaries could be a successful method of marketing. Really I care about effectiveness and I think if you follow an algorithmic approach which measures effectiveness through a voting/rating system then you can try out different compliance techniques, marketing techniques, etc.
So to get to a conclusion: What I'm saying is that the DAC's and the entire project's chance to succeed is subsequently higher if we deliberately use compliance techniques in order to achieve widespread adoption, acceptance and understanding of the intentions. With such, you are able to get "diehard" fans that spread the message not because they receive a badge or another form of compensation - but because they believe in the system.
I think you're just trying to trick people into working for the DAC for free. That might work for some people but you will be limited to those people. Anyone who has a job which pays them is not going to quit their job to work for a DAC which does not give them the same money, kudos, credentials, experience, credit, recognition, prestige, badge of honor, titles, or whatever they could get somewhere else.

The prestige system has been tested over and over in studies on gamification and you can see that these game mechanics work in practice. It is a fact that World of Warcraft is addictive for a reason, because of specific gamification mechanics. People work not just to make money but also for prestige and status to keep up with the Joneses. Different people are motivated differently and some people are motivated as "die hard" types who would work for free but those people in my opinion are incredibly rare and it goes against the tenants of capitalism.

I'm sure a DAC could pull it off if it were a charity DAC but I don't think people are going to work for a DAC which is clearly capitalist, clearly designed to make shareholders money, and not expect anything out of it.

Maybe you can show me that I'm wrong but I think if you look at why most people work or play it's because they want trinkets, credit, recognition, fame, money, etc. This applies as much to prize fighting and sports as it does to acting, being a doctor, lawyer, computer technician, or just gaming for fun.

People want to feel a sense of win, and they also have to be given enough money to of course feed themselves and their families so they don't have to worry about money. There is a balance of course where if you give people too much money you're wasting money, but if they are worried about money they will take their talent elsewhere to whichever DAC, business or team which gives them more money. Any DAC I develop will be designed in a way which includes gamification components but it would be good to try different approaches as that is why there should be competing DACs so that the market can decide what it likes.
Marketing != Compliance techniques
If you're using the word compliance techinques you're not exactly saying who they are to comply with. Are they complying with shareholders? To me a DAC should be all about inclusion and anyone should be able to become a shareholder if they are willing to work for the DAC to earn shares and have faith that those shares will be worth something then they should be rewarded.

A reiteration of my opinion is that we should just create a functioning algorithm which can fairly distribute the work and funds according to the voting of the stakeholders. We should reward anyone who helps develop and build up a DAC with ownership of the DAC making them stakeholders just as we reward the investors who crowd fund it and the Protoshare holders who are part of the social contract. I think only through ownership and only by allowing people to earn a stake can you have inclusion and I think inclusion is what will attract people to the DACs. It's just like how inclusion is what attracts so many people to mining.


Reference
http://gamification.org/wiki/Gamification_of_Work
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 01:39:13 am by luckybit »
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Offline domsch

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I think that a lot of your problems/questions can, and have to be solved on a psychological level. In order for someone to comply to one of your requests Reason , Emotional Attachments and eventually, Social Proof (herd behavior) need to be provided.

As you can see all of these compliance techniques (and obviously more sophisticated ones) are being used in today's time and age. In my perception, today's religion is nothing more than a form of mass psychology so that the "small sheep" stay within their region and do not cause any chaos. Meaning, religion has allowed the elitists to expand their power across all 7 continents and capitalism has flourished due to the awareness of the smaller sheep being stunned by religious prayers. All these people live for is the hope for a better future. The people around us need to realize that not God is the one that will save them, but their own behavior, their own actions, THEIR own hands will save them from all the sorrow. They are the ones that decide upon their future and only they can influence and create their own luck.

Obviously not only religion is a form of mass-psychology. The media, sports, music, movies, social media, etc. are all used to influence the decision making and perception of our modern day citizen.  The USA performs all mass-psychology techniques with adroit excellence. The quote that best fits the USA:
Quote
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes.
-Johann von Goethe


So to get back to the point, what I was saying is basically this:
The goal of a DAC is it to not only craft a vision, but to properly market that idea with compliance techniques in order to achieve their goal (in your case, get others to quit their day job in order to work for the DAC). A DAC needs to answer the WHY, HOW and WHAT (in this periodic order). Furthermore, the corollary to this is that the most successful DAC is not the one with the best idea, but the one that is best at convincing others of their plan. The representatives of a DAC need to be great storytellers, they need to reach their prospects on an emotional level to convince them about their intentions.

I don't see why it has to be this complicated. You're liberated. No boss. Work whatever hours you want or need to get the job done. Work at little or as much as you want, actively or passively. To top it off these shares or coins you work may dramatically appreciate in value. What more could you want?

Why wouldn't a rational person want that if the pay rates were high enough? I don't expect people to work for free or to do it out of spiritual motivations but if you want a job with no boss then the DAC can provide it.

To corroborate my statement, I'll give you an example, lets go back to religion.
I'm pretty sure that most here have heard of Jonestown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown). Basically, in the 80's a crazy dude called Jim Jones convinced more than 900 people to move from Cali/Indiana to Guyana and live in communistic subsistence economy. He convinced nearly a thousand people to liquidate all their assets, leave friends, family and their work behind to move in an uncertain terrain - and an uncertain future. He did all this by convincing these people of his intentions (in fact, he was a great story teller) and he touched all of these "sheep" on an emotional basis that made them perform such irrational actions. His use of compliance techniques peaked when he convinced nearly all members of Jonestown to commit "revolutionary suicide".
Why do we want or need to mimic this? It is not my goal to convince people to do any irrational or suicidal acts. I think if you're talking about a marketing strategy this will be too dangerous, have many unknown consequences, and does not provide greater value for shareholders or better service quality for customers to offset the risks. If you're telling people to quit their job to work for a DAC then all you have to do is offer a better value proposition by paying them in shares of the DAC. If they believe in the long term value of the DAC they'll want to have some shares in it. So if the DAC were the Internet 2.0 then the way to own a piece of the Internet 2.0 is to help build the Internet 2.0 or crowd fund it.

I prefer not to go the irrational route because irrational thinking does not seem to benefit scientific discovery. I also admit I'm not experienced with marketing products and you are.

So to articulate this example, what Jones did was the following:
WHY: " Come with me and you will achieve personal enlightenment. You will be able to communicate with your ancestors and get advice from their wisdom"(reason and emotional attachment)
HOW: "I found this new meditation technique with which I was able to reach God and my ancestors!"(reason)
WHAT: "We will create a new religion based on our believes"
What lead to widespread adoption of his intentions was the early visionaries/adopters. These were the people that spread the message and helped Jones convince others to join their company. And these people were not paid - they did it out of self belief. They believed what Jones said was right and they wanted others to achieve self enlightenment as well. They wanted to spread the message because they knew it was right.
Jones wanted people to do something which is entirely irrational. Why do we want to do this in the context of the DAC under discussion?

In the context of this particular DAC I don't see what message has to be spread other than "Work for the DAC and earn shares". Money really sells itself, especially when people don't have any. If you have to convince the people to like money then you should choose a more rational demographic.

This is just one example of many, where the use of compliance techniques had lead people to perform irrational actions and comply to nearly ANY form of request.
Once again, what irrational action are you trying to get people to perform?


Basically what I'm saying is that you need to put in more factors in your success-equation of a DAC. Talent is not only convinced by the monetary compensation they receive - "rational" people are more convinced of the intentions and purpose of a project.

The example of Jonestown was included to articulate how far you can get with a deliberate usage of these psychological compliance techniques. Obviously you will not want to convince potential participants to commit suicide for you - you want to convince them of your intentions and their purpose in the project. Only if you state the WHY, HOW and WHAT you will get an A-Team to join your project - and with such, you can get them to comply to your request (Lets assume you do not have enough money to pay a programmer the current industry standard. So you want to convince them to take less).

If these techniques are used by the wrong person they can be a real menace to the platform. You probably heard of "Kony 2012". A movement that caused millions of people to care about Uganda and their dictator Joseph Kony. People protested (well, they tried to), flyers were scattered across towns and millions of dollars were donated to Invisible Children (which in return, kept like 50%+ of the donated money). All of this was caused because a team of psychologists and cinematographers knew how to create a video that touched people on an emotional basis. People felt connected, they thought the same could happen to them and thus wanted to take action - with no compensation. They did it because they believed in it.

So to get to a conclusion: What I'm saying is that the DAC's and the entire project's chance to succeed is subsequently higher if we deliberately use compliance techniques in order to achieve widespread adoption, acceptance and understanding of the intentions. With such, you are able to get "diehard" fans that spread the message not because they receive a badge or another form of compensation - but because they believe in the system.

Marketing != Compliance techniques

Offline luckybit

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I think that a lot of your problems/questions can, and have to be solved on a psychological level. In order for someone to comply to one of your requests Reason , Emotional Attachments and eventually, Social Proof (herd behavior) need to be provided.

As you can see all of these compliance techniques (and obviously more sophisticated ones) are being used in today's time and age. In my perception, today's religion is nothing more than a form of mass psychology so that the "small sheep" stay within their region and do not cause any chaos. Meaning, religion has allowed the elitists to expand their power across all 7 continents and capitalism has flourished due to the awareness of the smaller sheep being stunned by religious prayers. All these people live for is the hope for a better future. The people around us need to realize that not God is the one that will save them, but their own behavior, their own actions, THEIR own hands will save them from all the sorrow. They are the ones that decide upon their future and only they can influence and create their own luck.

Obviously not only religion is a form of mass-psychology. The media, sports, music, movies, social media, etc. are all used to influence the decision making and perception of our modern day citizen.  The USA performs all mass-psychology techniques with adroit excellence. The quote that best fits the USA:
Quote
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes.
-Johann von Goethe


So to get back to the point, what I was saying is basically this:
The goal of a DAC is it to not only craft a vision, but to properly market that idea with compliance techniques in order to achieve their goal (in your case, get others to quit their day job in order to work for the DAC). A DAC needs to answer the WHY, HOW and WHAT (in this periodic order). Furthermore, the corollary to this is that the most successful DAC is not the one with the best idea, but the one that is best at convincing others of their plan. The representatives of a DAC need to be great storytellers, they need to reach their prospects on an emotional level to convince them about their intentions.

I don't see why it has to be this complicated. You're liberated. No boss. Work whatever hours you want or need to get the job done. Work at little or as much as you want, actively or passively. To top it off these shares or coins you work for may dramatically appreciate in value. What more could you want?

Why wouldn't a rational person want that if the pay rates were high enough? I don't expect people to work for free or to do it out of spiritual motivations but if you want a job with no boss then the DAC can provide it.

To corroborate my statement, I'll give you an example, lets go back to religion.
I'm pretty sure that most here have heard of Jonestown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown). Basically, in the 80's a crazy dude called Jim Jones convinced more than 900 people to move from Cali/Indiana to Guyana and live in communistic subsistence economy. He convinced nearly a thousand people to liquidate all their assets, leave friends, family and their work behind to move in an uncertain terrain - and an uncertain future. He did all this by convincing these people of his intentions (in fact, he was a great story teller) and he touched all of these "sheep" on an emotional basis that made them perform such irrational actions. His use of compliance techniques peaked when he convinced nearly all members of Jonestown to commit "revolutionary suicide".
Why do we want or need to mimic this? It is not my goal to convince people to do any irrational or suicidal acts. I think if you're talking about a marketing strategy this will be too dangerous, have many unknown consequences, and does not provide greater value for shareholders or better service quality for customers to offset the risks. If you're telling people to quit their job to work for a DAC then all you have to do is offer a better value proposition by paying them in shares of the DAC. If they believe in the long term value of the DAC they'll want to have some shares in it. So if the DAC were the Internet 2.0 then the way to own a piece of the Internet 2.0 is to help build the Internet 2.0 or crowd fund it.

I prefer not to go the irrational route because irrational thinking does not seem to benefit scientific discovery. I also admit I'm not experienced with marketing products and you are.

So to articulate this example, what Jones did was the following:
WHY: " Come with me and you will achieve personal enlightenment. You will be able to communicate with your ancestors and get advice from their wisdom"(reason and emotional attachment)
HOW: "I found this new meditation technique with which I was able to reach God and my ancestors!"(reason)
WHAT: "We will create a new religion based on our believes"
What lead to widespread adoption of his intentions was the early visionaries/adopters. These were the people that spread the message and helped Jones convince others to join their company. And these people were not paid - they did it out of self belief. They believed what Jones said was right and they wanted others to achieve self enlightenment as well. They wanted to spread the message because they knew it was right.
Jones wanted people to do something which is entirely irrational. Why do we want to do this in the context of the DAC under discussion?

In the context of this particular DAC I don't see what message has to be spread other than "Work for the DAC and earn shares". Money really sells itself, especially when people don't have any. If you have to convince the people to like money then you should choose a more rational demographic.

This is just one example of many, where the use of compliance techniques had lead people to perform irrational actions and comply to nearly ANY form of request.
Once again, what irrational action are you trying to get people to perform?
Also why use a poorly framed word like compliance? What demographic are we targeting with that?

I have no interest in compliance techniques. I believe in incentives. Offer the incentive and if they reject it then create a better incentive. Offering shares, dividends, money, these are incentives and that is really the only mechanism a DAC should need to compel human beings to want to work for it. The free market is all about incentives. I suppose you can make the argument that some people will work for religious or spiritual reasons instead of money but that seems like an entirely different demographic than the demographic we are dealing with.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 03:44:35 pm by luckybit »
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Offline domsch

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Text

I think that a lot of your problems/questions can, and have to be solved on a psychological level. In order for someone to comply to one of your requests Reason , Emotional Attachments and eventually, Social Proof (herd behavior) need to be provided.

As you can see all of these compliance techniques (and obviously more sophisticated ones) are being used in today's time and age. In my perception, today's religion is nothing more than a form of mass psychology so that the "small sheep" stay within their region and do not cause any chaos. Meaning, religion has allowed the elitists to expand their power across all 7 continents and capitalism has flourished due to the awareness of the smaller sheep being stunned by religious prayers. All these people live for is the hope for a better future. The people around us need to realize that not God is the one that will save them, but their own behavior, their own actions, THEIR own hands will save them from all the sorrow. They are the ones that decide upon their future and only they can influence and create their own luck.

Obviously not only religion is a form of mass-psychology. The media, sports, music, movies, social media, etc. are all used to influence the decision making and perception of our modern day citizen.  The USA performs all mass-psychology techniques with adroit excellence. The quote that best fits the USA:
Quote
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes.
-Johann von Goethe


So to get back to the point, what I was saying is basically this:
The goal of a DAC is it to not only craft a vision, but to properly market that idea with compliance techniques in order to achieve their goal (in your case, get others to quit their day job in order to work for the DAC). A DAC needs to answer the WHY, HOW and WHAT (in this periodic order). Furthermore, the corollary to this is that the most successful DAC is not the one with the best idea, but the one that is best at convincing others of their plan. The representatives of a DAC need to be great storytellers, they need to reach their prospects on an emotional level to convince them about their intentions.

To corroborate my statement, I'll give you an example, lets go back to religion.
I'm pretty sure that most here have heard of Jonestown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown). Basically, in the 80's a crazy dude called Jim Jones convinced more than 900 people to move from Cali/Indiana to Guyana and live in communistic subsistence economy. He convinced nearly a thousand people to liquidate all their assets, leave friends, family and their work behind to move in an uncertain terrain - and an uncertain future. He did all this by convincing these people of his intentions (in fact, he was a great story teller) and he touched all of these "sheep" on an emotional basis that made them perform such irrational actions. His use of compliance techniques peaked when he convinced nearly all members of Jonestown to commit "revolutionary suicide".
So to articulate this example, what Jones did was the following:
WHY: " Come with me and you will achieve personal enlightenment. You will be able to communicate with your ancestors and get advice from their wisdom"(reason and emotional attachment)
HOW: "I found this new meditation technique with which I was able to reach God and my ancestors!"(reason)
WHAT: "We will create a new religion based on our believes"
What lead to widespread adoption of his intentions was the early visionaries/adopters. These were the people that spread the message and helped Jones convince others to join their company. And these people were not paid - they did it out of self belief. They believed what Jones said was right and they wanted others to achieve self enlightenment as well. They wanted to spread the message because they knew it was right.

This is just one example of many, where the use of compliance techniques had lead people to perform irrational actions and comply to nearly ANY form of request.

So my proposal is to use the vulnerability in the human psyche - not for illicit intentions as our opponents - but to achieve widespread success and acceptance of our DAC's. I want to live in (and create) a society where the thought of ones self persuasion and the rapid advance in technology is the backbone and driving force. We need to lead the people in the right direction and help them distinguish the good from the evil.

Btw: This is really becoming interesting. I have been researching on a new form of economic theory for quite some time and I think that we are getting somewhere here. But there are still some questions that need to be answered on how to create this new form of a society. Check this out btw http://thevenusproject.com/ - quite interesting.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 01:52:38 pm by domsch »

Offline luckybit

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You might be interested in this proposal currently circulating.


Application Specific, Autonomous, Self Boot-Strapping Consensus Platforms (And the DACs that live on them)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PBjrpMBViJh1-QrWJ80XMcQmhqcG3NhhoeSn0C_ML7Y/edit?usp=sharing
That proposal mirrors what I'm thinking about with the exception being that there could be artificial intelligence at the center (there is no top) which gets feedback/commands from shareholders to better achieve the goals of shareholders. Ultimately it's not hierarchical and there really is no top, it's flat and anyone who works for the DAC becomes a shareholder as a payment received for their level of commitment according to the PoC algorithm.

Apparently we are on the same page. Let's work together on this and blend ideas into something great.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 02:29:06 pm by luckybit »
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Offline Lighthouse

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You might be interested in this proposal currently circulating.


Application Specific, Autonomous, Self Boot-Strapping Consensus Platforms (And the DACs that live on them)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PBjrpMBViJh1-QrWJ80XMcQmhqcG3NhhoeSn0C_ML7Y/edit?usp=sharing
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline luckybit

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Developing a good "How to" or more specifically "What is" website is key in bringing on people that are less in tune with the bitcoin space.

While I really like the aesthetics of the new protoshares.com site, it assumes a certain base level understanding of the bitcoin protocol, its basic function and its many iterations.   To really draw in the average person, the DAC concept needs to be dumbed down so that my parents and grandparents can really begin to understand what DACs are and the many advantages they offer. 

I still have trouble explaining the DAC concept to people unfamiliar with bitcoin so this might be one of the most challenging things to produce.

I think we need to develop an economic ecosystem which leverages crowd funding to reward human builders and operators of DACs. It seems I'm the only one pushing for this, but if DACs offered "good jobs" then you would have no problem finding talented people to fill the bounties. It's a matter of crowd funding primarily and also a matter of creating an ecosystem which isn't going to be easy because it's not really been done before.

The badge based system of certification has been discussed before. You can see the concept at Open Badges http://openbadges.org/

But the idea of human beings working for software based autonomous agents is straight out of science fiction to most people. The way to make this idea catch on fire is to take it out of the realm of science fiction and have a welcoming inclusive website with phrases like: "Anyone can work for a DAC"   "We have jobs for everyone from any background or experience level" "If you want Bitcoins, work for abcDAC"

That kind of marketing will sell the DACs to people who are trying to get paid and who have time. People who have money will have to be pitched Angelshares. People who need services will be pitched in a different way. All three are critical components of a healthy economic ecosystem.

If you have no one working for the DAC then the DAC is just another app or altcoin and people won't get it. If no one uses its services (no demand) then it wont make a profit, shareholders won't get the dividends, it wont be self sustaining. If it does not receive crowd funding then it will not have the initial catalyst to build the whole thing.


« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 07:10:19 am by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

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I think you have a good idea. Let's try and discover a formal DAC construction system?

I think the key to making it work all is to find a way to get members of the community to work directly or indirectly for the DAC. Involvement is a way of saying it, but if you want people to put up posters, put urls in signatures, or do guerrilla marketing then you have to give them a stake which increases in proportion to their level of commitment/involvement. I think if we get that right then the community will start marketing the DACs by itself.

So here is how I suggest we start. While the idea I presented in the past was to create a DAC to handle it, I think since we don't have a DAC will we have to start by going about it the human way and slowly automate functionality until it becomes a DAC.

So you've taken the first step by presenting your proposal. We do not yet have Proof of Stake voting so the community should first somehow vote on it to approve or disapprove your marketing plan. If the plan is approved then you will need to come up with a step by step to-do list so that members of the community can become your street team and get rewarded with shares or credits in the case where shares do not exist yet for this purpose. This would mean you'll have to keep a spreadsheet with coin addresses, as well as keep track of who followed through.

About giveaways, when I hosted a giveaway it was also required that they do something in exchange for receiving their portion of Mastercoins and it was also limited so that each only gets to do it once. One individual complained that it was bait and switch because the title of the thread was giveaway but I was asking for signatures and other proof. It may be helpful not to call it a giveaway, but more a reward for participation. If you call it a giveaway you will attract people who want something for free and who may not even know what it is.

About reputation, it is critical that we get reputation right. The vision I have (since you call us visionaries), is a situation where the DACs are are the center of our eco-system. We move away from the traditional labor or full time job based model into a model where it's task oriented and problem solving.

So to create a prototype or protoDAC which uses Proof of Commitment you need:

1. Reputation (prestige, status, badges designating role, effectiveness rating, etc)
2. Credit (If they attain a badge and are in a role they should be credited for verified completed work)
3. Tasks - (to-do lists or DAC instruction sets)

It's cheaper to say lets use volunteers but then you get what you pay for, you get people who can eventually quit their jobs to build and operate DACs. Building a DAC requires a lot more than just programmers, and we have a lot of people here who in an ideal situation would quit their jobs and work directly for DACs. If you show the world that you can build a functioning economic ecosystem which is self contained enough that people work for DACs exclusively then you can show the world another economic model.

Some open questions:

How much do we want to spend on marketing? The first thing to decide is a budget. Once you have a budge in place you can decide other things.

How would you like to get paid if at all to do certain tasks? Since we don't really know how much certain tasks cost we probably should have some surveys to find out, alternatively you could pay at a rate relative to what people would get working for a corporation but when you're global and online a lot of things are cheaper.

What would it take to get community members to quit their job and spend their day doing DAC tasks? Ultimately no matter what these tasks will have to be completed each and every time to build a DAC and every DAC seems to follow a similar pattern so if I were trying to build a DAC I don't want to have to set up a website, set up an exchange, do the art work, create the messaging, handle the marketing strategy or any of that. The DAC should build itself through us because the incentives are structured in such a way that these are self building DACs.

So in order to streamline a self building DAC kit or self building DAC manufacturing then we start with the basic components. Off the top of my head every DAC starts with an outline, a whitepaper or set of instructions on how to build it. This includes the service the DAC will offer, the problem the DAC is trying to solve, how much funding the DAC will need, some crowd funded mechanism of funding it, a list of tasks or bounties which have to be filled from start to finish in order to complete the DAC.

All of that should be released at the same time in a formal package and every DAC should at least come with a similar sort of instruction manual. I don't have a name for this but basically the way to think about it is just as you would think about source code which feeds instructions the computer, DAC instruction sets are to tell the human workers how to construct and operate the DAC.

An example To-Do list (DAC instruction set) could be like

1. Crowd funding figure must reach X amount. (set funding target)
2. If crowd funding figure reaches X amount then roles/jobs in these categories must be created, tasks/bounties for these roles will be created, assignment to humans on first come first serve basis. (determine assignments)
3. Proof of Commitment algorithm determines how much funding goes to each bounty/task or a committee of shareholders decide on their own. (measure participation/commitment and set bounties)
4. Every task is checked, audited, every participant who successfully does a job is rewarded with credits for a job well done and a badge to signify they have experience. (reward a job well done and track experience of participants)

The badges are necessary, as is the crediting system, because then each member of the community can collect these badges which can immediately indicate their level of experience. Badges can represent levels, so if a particular DAC employee if you want to call it, or DAC bounty hunter decides to go work for another DAC then that DAC would immediately know exactly the level of experience they are at and it could all be an automated process.

If the system were set up how I envision it then you could have DAC employees like

1. An individual who could write DAC documentation for a living. This individual would be rated over time and go from novice to expert. As an expert this individual would get bonuses depending on the algorithm used to reward the credits.  If the algorithm is PoC then the payout would be according to that algorithm but every DAC could have it's own payout algorithm so that over time an individual can decide to not work under certain payout algorithms they don't like.

2. An individual could do DAC artwork for a living. This individual would be rated over time and if their work sucks they would not go from novice to expert but if the work is good then they will. The algorithm should always allow for measuring the quality of their work in a decentralized manner using human beings to rate. Just as with the first example if there are plenty of DACs in the ecosystem then eventually the artist will be able to select the DAC they want to work for based on the payout algorithm they prefer.

3. An individual could be a DAC programmer for a living. In this role the individual would write code, the code would be audited by the community and could even be rated by peer review. If the DAC programmer consistently writes buggy code with securities holes then that should go on their record but if their code is clean, consistently passes security audits, then they should be rated an expert. Once again you can use a badge system to finely tune it so that successful projects by the programmer in certain areas like say cryptography could win the programmer a specialist badge in cryptographic protocols. This badge would allow the programmer to go to any DAC and work for it based off previous experience.

4. An individual could be a DAC marketer for a living. In this role the individual is part of or the leader of a marketing team. The individual is either given a set of metrics and goals or they are in charge in strategy. In general their success should be measured statistically and if the statistics don't look good they should be rated novice by the community but if the statistics look good they should be rated expert.

Now some problems could occur in the case of collusion and for this reason voting pools should be anonymous and selected at random. Voters should be paid to give them incentive to want to rate others work. So this job would be similar to the kind of jobs you see with Bitcoinget where you just need some human being to look at something or review some code. Over time the work of the reviewers should also be reviewed in the same way so that quality reviewers get paid the most.

These ideas are a bit radical and may be too much for right now but if we are serious about building DACs we should create our own work or task distribution processes and tie that in with share/coin distribution so that the incentives are aligned similar to how they would be if we were working for a real corporation.

Only in this case these corporations would be decentralized, autonomous, and there are no bosses. The only boss would be the community itself which would review everyone and everything with incentives for it. I believe the best way to market a DAC is to show what a DAC is and the only way to truly know what it is would be to work for it and be serviced by it, so the community has to interact with DACs on both these levels just as they would with corporations in the world.





« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 06:56:41 am by luckybit »
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Offline domsch

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Btw if you guys are interested in interactive websites. Really check out http://www.zensorium.com/tinke/ - I love it!

Offline domsch

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Developing a good "How to" or more specifically "What is" website is key in bringing on people that are less in tune with the bitcoin space.

While I really like the aesthetics of the new protoshares.com site, it assumes a certain base level understanding of the bitcoin protocol, its basic function and its many iterations.   To really draw in the average person, the DAC concept needs to be dumbed down so that my parents and grandparents can really begin to understand what DACs are and the many advantages they offer. 

I still have trouble explaining the DAC concept to people unfamiliar with bitcoin so this might be one of the most challenging things to produce.

I thought exactly the same when visiting protoshares. (nothing against super3, he is doing a great job really). Improving the user experience is to make the usage as simple as possible and offer a short 2 - 4 word introduction to what problem the product solves.

If you look at https://www.simple.com/ you realize that they want to help you manage your banking relations and offer transparency
https://trychec.com/ - Sell anything, anywhere. A simple 3 step process and you are able to make money already.
https://www.zopim.com - real time customer satisfaction
https://www.mint.com/ - manage your monthly expenses/income
https://do.com/ - get shit done
https://www.infinit.io/ - easily send files

Just some of the websites of my "awesome website designs" list which I work on daily. The Invictus Innovations website could look similar to http://www.6wunderkinder.com/ for example.

Obviously explaining Bitshares in layman terms requires a lot more effort, that is why I think an interactive "How it works" or "Tour" page on the website that explains the projects (Bitshares and Keyhotee) in a funny/easy way will bring clarification to our average user. But the most important work for the marketing team is to not only explain the intentions of Bitshares, but to create an entire movement. We need to influence the users to take action against grievances and get them to independently spread the solutions offered by Bitshares (i.e. word of mouth).  Once Brian/Dan contacted me I can try and get to work with them and present some more ideas to the community/them. 


Offline bytemaster

Guerrilla Marketers: Are any of you Clapton fans?

Take this to some old alleyway in New York but write "Larimer is God" or "Bitshares > Bitcoin"


Please don't write Larimer is God....  too much responsibility and centralization ;)
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bitbro

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Guerrilla Marketers: Are any of you Clapton fans?

Take this to some old alleyway in New York but write "Larimer is God" or "Bitshares > Bitcoin"





Offline wasthatawolf

Developing a good "How to" or more specifically "What is" website is key in bringing on people that are less in tune with the bitcoin space.

While I really like the aesthetics of the new protoshares.com site, it assumes a certain base level understanding of the bitcoin protocol, its basic function and its many iterations.   To really draw in the average person, the DAC concept needs to be dumbed down so that my parents and grandparents can really begin to understand what DACs are and the many advantages they offer. 

I still have trouble explaining the DAC concept to people unfamiliar with bitcoin so this might be one of the most challenging things to produce.

Offline onceuponatime

Makes me want even more to keep on buying protoshares!