Author Topic: Any bank pay you interest for the money in your pocket?  (Read 12178 times)

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Offline luckybit

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If I'm bad guy, and I have 1 million USD. I want BTS price keep falling down.
What I need to do is, change all my money to BITUSD, Then wait the monthly expire of short order. I'll hold all my BITUSD until we have no enough shorter, the expired short order have to get the BITUSD to cover. Shorter need to sell BTS to get BITUSD, while all the BITUSD is hold by me.This will keep the price falling. 

As a bad guy, I'll lose nothing, while earn some interesting.

I think the rule need be changed. The one hold BITUSD should pay people short for them.

In an bank I borrow money, and I can use the money to do more meaningful things, and I have to pay interesting.
In BTS, I short BTS and create BITUSD, but I can not use the BITUSD, other people get my BITUSD, and use BITUSD, and I have to pay the interesting to him. What a fuck???

BITUSD is for trade, not for people to hold. I'd like suggest people who short, set interesting to 0.
People who hold bitUSD can use the bitUSD to trade, to buy stuff, to hire people to work for them in the Internet, and can invest with bitUSD. bitUSD is like the money in your pocket. Any bank pay u interest while the money is in your pocket?
As a Shorter, yes, we can get more BTS. BUT, the BTS is locked, we can not use the BTS do any thing but hoping the BTS price goes up.

This is not how the world run!!
We need is real economist. Don't tell me BM is a economist..

Why don't you demonstrate this attack on Devshares?
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Offline CLains

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Shit's getting real. This will change the world.

I wonder if folks have any idea what the implications of something like bitBonds are?

The currency and bond markets are the largest in the world, literally oceans of wealth ebbing and flowing every day.

I had proposed a bitLending DAC long ago, but quickly realized a credit market would need to be a part of the core Bitshares platform.

Here it is. Global access to decentralized credit markets.

Mind blown. I'm doubling the dollar value of my DCA buys. No joke.

Yes, this was inevitable just like Dan's new proposed "leveraged BitAsset plays get called to arbitration before well collateralized BitAsset players do" rules would take effect after our trading engine survived its first bear market without black swan arrival.

The fact that we can allow increased leverage, and reduce minimum collateral requirements, while improving liquidity (at the expense of yield) is genius (then reintroduces yield with BitBonds so that no benefits are lost).  That is the training wheel removal process.

Dan's recent mumble session description of his evolved trading engine will allow for less colateral and hopefully leveraged purchases (and shorting) of BitAssets.  He is continuing down the right track (I am an economist*).

We need BitShares to be able to allow all the trading options (from leveraged buys to collateralized lending) that today's modern/advanced centralized markets do, and now with forced arbitration for leveraged or less collaretalized plays coupled with BitBond lending for those who want to take the position of the house, I would say we have the majority of modern financial options covered.

*Yes, I am an economist, however, I dropped out of college after my professors started preaching, sorry, I mean "teaching" the Keynesian Theory

The only reason I even hang around here is because I just happen to comprehend everything that BM says.

In other words, it's purely coincidental.

The first 6 months of BitShares BitAsset trading was to see how the training wheels held up, and figure out the best way to remove them.  I think that this "it is your responsibility to avoid arbitration (and conversely your own fault if the arbitrator needs your collateral next)" free market is simple, elegant, fair, and above all inherently Darwinian.

Not all economists are created equal:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Keynesian+vs+classical+economics&gws_rd=ssl&oq=&gs_l=


Offline Buck Fankers

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The only reason I even hang around here is because I just happen to comprehend everything that BM says.

In other words, it's purely coincidental.

You were bytemaster, for a day.

Offline Buck Fankers

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BM, please always make a pre-announcement on any new features of every next wallet release so it will create a buzz and a good impressions that asides from bug fixing the wallet keep adding new features.

Sometimes even a simple feature can make a huge news if done right.

lulz

Offline Buck Fankers

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We have already identified this problem and also the solution:

1) No interest on BitUSD
2) No expiration on Shorts unless USD request force settlement at a discount (profit to the short)
3) Bond market which locks up BitUSD like a CD and pays interest.

 +5%

Offline oldman

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I wonder if folks have any idea what the implications of something like bitBonds are?  Here it is. Global access to decentralized credit markets.

Yes, this was inevitable just like Dan's new proposed "leveraged BitAsset plays get called to arbitration before well collateralized BitAsset players do" rules would take effect after our trading engine survived its first bear market without black swan arrival.

The fact that we can allow increased leverage, and reduce minimum collateral requirements, while improving liquidity (at the expense of yield) is genius (then reintroduces yield with BitBonds so that no benefits are lost).  That is the training wheel removal process.

Dan's recent mumble session description of his evolved trading engine will allow for less colateral and hopefully leveraged purchases (and shorting) of BitAssets.  He is continuing down the right track (I am an economist*).

We need BitShares to be able to allow all the trading options (from leveraged buys to collateralized lending) that today's modern/advanced centralized markets do, and now with forced arbitration for leveraged or less collaretalized plays coupled with BitBond lending for those who want to take the position of the house, I would say we have the majority of modern financial options covered.

*Yes, I am an economist, however, I dropped out of college after my professors started preaching, sorry, I mean "teaching" the Keynesian Theory

The only reason I even hang around here is because I just happen to comprehend everything that BM says.

In other words, it's purely coincidental.

The first 6 months of BitShares BitAsset trading was to see how the training wheels held up, and figure out the best way to remove them.  I think that this "it is your responsibility to avoid arbitration (and conversely your own fault if the arbitrator needs your collateral next)" free market is simple, elegant, fair, and above all inherently Darwinian.

Not all economists are created equal:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Keynesian+vs+classical+economics&gws_rd=ssl&oq=&gs_l=

Word.


Offline oldman

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If I'm bad guy, and I have 1 million USD. I want BTS price keep falling down.
What I need to do is, change all my money to BITUSD, Then wait the monthly expire of short order. I'll hold all my BITUSD until we have no enough shorter, the expired short order have to get the BITUSD to cover. Shorter need to sell BTS to get BITUSD, while all the BITUSD is hold by me.This will keep the price falling. 

As a bad guy, I'll lose nothing, while earn some interesting.

I think the rule need be changed. The one hold BITUSD should pay people short for them.

In an bank I borrow money, and I can use the money to do more meaningful things, and I have to pay interesting.
In BTS, I short BTS and create BITUSD, but I can not use the BITUSD, other people get my BITUSD, and use BITUSD, and I have to pay the interesting to him. What a fuck???

BITUSD is for trade, not for people to hold. I'd like suggest people who short, set interesting to 0.
People who hold bitUSD can use the bitUSD to trade, to buy stuff, to hire people to work for them in the Internet, and can invest with bitUSD. bitUSD is like the money in your pocket. Any bank pay u interest while the money is in your pocket?
As a Shorter, yes, we can get more BTS. BUT, the BTS is locked, we can not use the BTS do any thing but hoping the BTS price goes up.

This is not how the world run!!
We need is real economist. Don't tell me BM is a economist..

We have already identified this problem and also the solution:

1) No interest on BitUSD
2) No expiration on Shorts unless USD request force settlement at a discount (profit to the short)
3) Bond market which locks up BitUSD like a CD and pays interest.

Shit's getting real. This will change the world.

I wonder if folks have any idea what the implications of something like bitBonds are?

The currency and bond markets are the largest in the world, literally oceans of wealth ebbing and flowing every day.

I had proposed a bitLending DAC long ago, but quickly realized a credit market would need to be a part of the core Bitshares platform.

Here it is. Global access to decentralized credit markets.

Mind blown. I'm doubling the dollar value of my DCA buys. No joke.


Offline starspirit

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If I'm bad guy, and I have 1 million USD. I want BTS price keep falling down.
What I need to do is, change all my money to BITUSD, Then wait the monthly expire of short order. I'll hold all my BITUSD until we have no enough shorter, the expired short order have to get the BITUSD to cover. Shorter need to sell BTS to get BITUSD, while all the BITUSD is hold by me.This will keep the price falling. 

As a bad guy, I'll lose nothing, while earn some interesting.

I think the rule need be changed. The one hold BITUSD should pay people short for them.

In an bank I borrow money, and I can use the money to do more meaningful things, and I have to pay interesting.
In BTS, I short BTS and create BITUSD, but I can not use the BITUSD, other people get my BITUSD, and use BITUSD, and I have to pay the interesting to him. What a fuck???

BITUSD is for trade, not for people to hold. I'd like suggest people who short, set interesting to 0.

This idea must come up from some coder. But what we need is economist.

The last thing we need is an economist who has no experience with this space. Bytemaster has an economics background himself, he's not just an ordinary developer. That is why Bitshares has the advantages it has.

Bitshares started out as an experiment to test a hypothesis that Bytemaster put forth. It's just a testing of that hypothesis and we learned from that. Bytemaster could pursue a Phd in economics honestly just from his work on Bitshares so who would you be able to find who knows as much about this space and economics who could help?

There was an economist on the team at one point early on as an adviser. Advisers are good and can always help. What happened to the economist Charles Evans? http://www.pecuniology.com/who.php
 +5%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ueyO72j_Iw
 +5%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk
 +5%
But I think it would be a dramatic error to appeal to the authority of aliens. Aliens to the space we are in have no experience, no trust, and while they might have knowledge which could be helpful it's unlikely they understand the mechanics of this particular environment to give advice. It's kind of like going to a lawyer to help with smart contracts, it's not helpful unless the lawyer is someone who really knows how to read and write code and also understands the space.
One man, no matter his intelligence, cannot design such a vast system alone, at least if it is to become as vast as his vision demands.

It's not one man, it's an entire community. At the same time there isn't any man with more knowledge and skills required for the task in this community than Bytemaster and I doubt anyone from some other community would be able to learn enough to be of much help in a short period of time.

It would take months for someone to figure out Bitshares and Bitshares is constantly changing.

luckybit, I understand this. I still don't understand all the inner workings, so it would take a long time for an outsider to learn it. I just don't think its true that coders can exclusively contribute value to the design of the system.

Who said only coders contributed? I brought up CWEvans and also many other random people on the forum have contributed via discussion and feedback.

However a random economist who hasn't studied or used Bitshares or even Bitcoin probably wont be very helpful. They simply would have no idea or reference for what a decentralized autonomous corporation is or what Bitshares is and everything would have to be explained.

By the time they catch up it would be months later. What exactly could they contribute that CWEvans can't contribute ? CWEvans actually knows the community.

At this point Bitshares is in the phase where Bytemaster has a vision for it and the community agrees with his vision. It's just a matter of getting the components to work in code.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. At the risk of doing so again, you now appear to be saying that other non-coders have contributed in the past, but the need for that has gone now because at this point its only about putting the envisaged design into code.

Yet we can see the design is still constantly evolving, e.g. BitAsset 3.0. And this is only a sliver of the total architecture eventually required for what Bitshares will ultimately become. And this is all as it should be, because there is an everlasting need to Reimagine Everything ahead of other keen innovators in the external world. Therefore I don't see that the need for such contributions ever truly disappears.

Wouldn't you agree it would be valuable if we drew more effectively on the collective skill set within the existing community, who are already very familiar with Bitshares? I bet that includes economists, lawyers, investors, financial engineers, marketers and other useful professions that could each place valuable perspectives on design proposals within the system.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 03:55:07 am by starspirit »

Offline luckybit

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If I'm bad guy, and I have 1 million USD. I want BTS price keep falling down.
What I need to do is, change all my money to BITUSD, Then wait the monthly expire of short order. I'll hold all my BITUSD until we have no enough shorter, the expired short order have to get the BITUSD to cover. Shorter need to sell BTS to get BITUSD, while all the BITUSD is hold by me.This will keep the price falling. 

As a bad guy, I'll lose nothing, while earn some interesting.

I think the rule need be changed. The one hold BITUSD should pay people short for them.

In an bank I borrow money, and I can use the money to do more meaningful things, and I have to pay interesting.
In BTS, I short BTS and create BITUSD, but I can not use the BITUSD, other people get my BITUSD, and use BITUSD, and I have to pay the interesting to him. What a fuck???

BITUSD is for trade, not for people to hold. I'd like suggest people who short, set interesting to 0.

This idea must come up from some coder. But what we need is economist.

The last thing we need is an economist who has no experience with this space. Bytemaster has an economics background himself, he's not just an ordinary developer. That is why Bitshares has the advantages it has.

Bitshares started out as an experiment to test a hypothesis that Bytemaster put forth. It's just a testing of that hypothesis and we learned from that. Bytemaster could pursue a Phd in economics honestly just from his work on Bitshares so who would you be able to find who knows as much about this space and economics who could help?

There was an economist on the team at one point early on as an adviser. Advisers are good and can always help. What happened to the economist Charles Evans? http://www.pecuniology.com/who.php
 +5%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ueyO72j_Iw
 +5%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk
 +5%
But I think it would be a dramatic error to appeal to the authority of aliens. Aliens to the space we are in have no experience, no trust, and while they might have knowledge which could be helpful it's unlikely they understand the mechanics of this particular environment to give advice. It's kind of like going to a lawyer to help with smart contracts, it's not helpful unless the lawyer is someone who really knows how to read and write code and also understands the space.
One man, no matter his intelligence, cannot design such a vast system alone, at least if it is to become as vast as his vision demands.

It's not one man, it's an entire community. At the same time there isn't any man with more knowledge and skills required for the task in this community than Bytemaster and I doubt anyone from some other community would be able to learn enough to be of much help in a short period of time.

It would take months for someone to figure out Bitshares and Bitshares is constantly changing.

luckybit, I understand this. I still don't understand all the inner workings, so it would take a long time for an outsider to learn it. I just don't think its true that coders can exclusively contribute value to the design of the system.

Who said only coders contributed? I brought up CWEvans and also many other random people on the forum have contributed via discussion and feedback.

However a random economist who hasn't studied or used Bitshares or even Bitcoin probably wont be very helpful. They simply would have no idea or reference for what a decentralized autonomous corporation is or what Bitshares is and everything would have to be explained.

By the time they catch up it would be months later. What exactly could they contribute that CWEvans can't contribute ? CWEvans actually knows the community.

At this point Bitshares is in the phase where Bytemaster has a vision for it and the community agrees with his vision. It's just a matter of getting the components to work in code.
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Offline starspirit

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If I'm bad guy, and I have 1 million USD. I want BTS price keep falling down.
What I need to do is, change all my money to BITUSD, Then wait the monthly expire of short order. I'll hold all my BITUSD until we have no enough shorter, the expired short order have to get the BITUSD to cover. Shorter need to sell BTS to get BITUSD, while all the BITUSD is hold by me.This will keep the price falling. 

As a bad guy, I'll lose nothing, while earn some interesting.

I think the rule need be changed. The one hold BITUSD should pay people short for them.

In an bank I borrow money, and I can use the money to do more meaningful things, and I have to pay interesting.
In BTS, I short BTS and create BITUSD, but I can not use the BITUSD, other people get my BITUSD, and use BITUSD, and I have to pay the interesting to him. What a fuck???

BITUSD is for trade, not for people to hold. I'd like suggest people who short, set interesting to 0.

This idea must come up from some coder. But what we need is economist.

The last thing we need is an economist who has no experience with this space. Bytemaster has an economics background himself, he's not just an ordinary developer. That is why Bitshares has the advantages it has.

Bitshares started out as an experiment to test a hypothesis that Bytemaster put forth. It's just a testing of that hypothesis and we learned from that. Bytemaster could pursue a Phd in economics honestly just from his work on Bitshares so who would you be able to find who knows as much about this space and economics who could help?

There was an economist on the team at one point early on as an adviser. Advisers are good and can always help. What happened to the economist Charles Evans? http://www.pecuniology.com/who.php
 +5%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ueyO72j_Iw
 +5%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk
 +5%
But I think it would be a dramatic error to appeal to the authority of aliens. Aliens to the space we are in have no experience, no trust, and while they might have knowledge which could be helpful it's unlikely they understand the mechanics of this particular environment to give advice. It's kind of like going to a lawyer to help with smart contracts, it's not helpful unless the lawyer is someone who really knows how to read and write code and also understands the space.
One man, no matter his intelligence, cannot design such a vast system alone, at least if it is to become as vast as his vision demands.

It's not one man, it's an entire community. At the same time there isn't any man with more knowledge and skills required for the task in this community than Bytemaster and I doubt anyone from some other community would be able to learn enough to be of much help in a short period of time.

It would take months for someone to figure out Bitshares and Bitshares is constantly changing.

luckybit, I understand this. I still don't understand all the inner workings, so it would take a long time for an outsider to learn it. I just don't think its true that coders can exclusively contribute value to the design of the system.

Offline lastagile

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Bts is not a bank. This banking idea is totally wrong. We need to fix this as soon as possible 


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Offline Stan

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We have already identified this problem and also the solution:

1) No interest on BitUSD

This is a major shift in policy & marketing direction. I haven't been following the BitAssets 3.0 thread closely, nor have I heard a summary of it that revealed this change. This imo is rather explosive news and strikes to the core of the BitShares value proposition as previously advertised.

However,  I recognize that BitAssets are an experiment, and experiments are a tool of investigation and learning. I see many knowledgeable and experienced participants in that thread and the one titled "Why BitShares isn't Taking off and What we are doing about it".

This is dangerous territory in light of recent PR concerns. I spend alot of time here on the forums but never saw this coming. I would advise BM to tread carefully in making statements that could be construed as altering long standing functionality, such as removal of interest on BitUSD, which eliminates (or at least fundamentally changes) it as a replacement for fiat saving accounts.

The thread is titled "BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review", so I hope the topic was vetted before it even appeared on the forum. Given the potential impact of changes to BitAssets, I think we should have a special mumble session to review that thread and describe & discuss the merits of proposed changes.

Admittedly I didn't pay careful attention to those threads b/c economic analysis is not a strength of mine and thus my interest in it is limited. But I am keenly interested in the success of this ecosystem, and therefore I will pay closer attention to these proposals. I must rely on others to break them down into understandable elements I can digest and provide clear facts in support of any changes proposed.

With regard to the elimination of interest on holding BitUSD (and presumably all other BitAssets), I will rescan the thread and see if I can distill the basis for that change from the discussion. Questions are likely to be forthcoming!

This had been stated previously:

The current BitAsset system will be run in parallel with the new system users can migrate at will.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline yellowecho

We have already identified this problem and also the solution:

1) No interest on BitUSD

I would advise BM to tread carefully in making statements that could be construed as altering long standing functionality, such as removal of interest on BitUSD, which eliminates (or at least fundamentally changes) it as a replacement for fiat saving accounts.

BitBonds will offer a yield instead.  The change is more assets and more options not less.
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Offline Thom

We have already identified this problem and also the solution:

1) No interest on BitUSD

This is a major shift in policy & marketing direction. I haven't been following the BitAssets 3.0 thread closely, nor have I heard a summary of it that revealed this change. This imo is rather explosive news and strikes to the core of the BitShares value proposition as previously advertised.

However,  I recognize that BitAssets are an experiment, and experiments are a tool of investigation and learning. I see many knowledgeable and experienced participants in that thread and the one titled "Why BitShares isn't Taking off and What we are doing about it".

This is dangerous territory in light of recent PR concerns. I spend alot of time here on the forums but never saw this coming. I would advise BM to tread carefully in making statements that could be construed as altering long standing functionality, such as removal of interest on BitUSD, which eliminates (or at least fundamentally changes) it as a replacement for fiat saving accounts.

The thread is titled "BitAssets 3.0 - For Community Review", so I hope the topic was vetted before it even appeared on the forum. Given the potential impact of changes to BitAssets, I think we should have a special mumble session to review that thread and describe & discuss the merits of proposed changes.

Admittedly I didn't pay careful attention to those threads b/c economic analysis is not a strength of mine and thus my interest in it is limited. But I am keenly interested in the success of this ecosystem, and therefore I will pay closer attention to these proposals. I must rely on others to break them down into understandable elements I can digest and provide clear facts in support of any changes proposed.

With regard to the elimination of interest on holding BitUSD (and presumably all other BitAssets), I will rescan the thread and see if I can distill the basis for that change from the discussion. Questions are likely to be forthcoming!
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