Author Topic: Paid Workers Proposal for Review  (Read 44303 times)

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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

This is looking good.

I think while the optics of the term 'witness' don't seem appealing, I can tell that this choice was made largely out of creating some legal protection to the roll and perhaps some flexibility so as to not get hooked into a particular regulatory pigeonhole simply because we call it something. For example, there are certain ramifications if in this 2.0 version instead of calling delegates delegates we called them 'accountants'. In terms of tax code and such, the term 'producer' could have certain ramifications further complicated by what it is we are actually producing.

I think the term denotes a balance to the whole system so that there is still oversight even to each delegate providing a counterparty verification system of sorts. Delegates working with 'producers' almost reminds me of terms like Congress and big business. Witness is more along the lines of what someone who is trusted to verify does.. a notary public for example is needed to witness the verification of documents.. in this case.. the verification of transactions.

Overall as far as 2.0 goes.. this is all far less scarier than it initially felt like it was going to be. While it certainly added a degree of complication.. all higher organisms are complex. We are only seeing a small preview so there is more to this.. if you like it.. TIME TO BUY! :D

I am excited to see how all of this comes together.

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Offline triox

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The number of Witnesses and Delegates is directly voted upon by the stakeholders.    Each stakeholder must vote for at least as many Witnesses and Delegates as they believe the system should have.   The number of witnesses/delegates is defined such that at least 50% of voting shareholders believe there is sufficient decentralization. 

Is this a good moment to reintroduce the idea of partial "witness" randomization?
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Offline jsidhu

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In DPOS 2.0, what condition makes burned fees (or profits) greater than token newly created (cost)?

I think reverse-dilution is very important point for potential investors.
I agree... investors consider that bullish for hodling.
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Offline Thom

Lucky for you I have been working on just such a paper... here is a preview of the motivation for this:

Quote
Under DPOS 1.0 the stakeholders would select 101 delegates by approval voting.  These delegates would take turns producing blocks every 10 seconds. Each delegate would get to set their own pay rate as a percent of the maximum.  Decisions about which fees to charge and hard-forks to adopt rested in the hands of delegates which acted individually.

This system worked reasonably well but over time some serious issues became apparent. Some of these issues include:

Requiring stakeholders to select 101 delegates may be too much leading to most stakeholders voting for less than 101 or not carefully vetting the delegates they chose.
Forcing all “employees” to run servers to get paid significantly complicated the hiring of people without those skills.
There was no way to come to a consensus on what the fee structure should be.
With a total budget of $50,000 per month of new issuance, each individual delegate had a maximum budget of $500 per month which is not enough to get someone’s full time attention.   It was politically unpopular to give one individual multiple delegate positions for fear of centralization.

Delegates have too much control in a single position that opens them up to unnecessary legal liability.

DPOS 2.0 Overview

Under DPOS 2.0 the roles of delegates have been divided into 3 categories:

Witness - produces blocks and is paid a percentage of transaction fees.
Worker - is paid a fixed number of tokens per day to perform a task
Delegate - co-signer on a dynamic multi-sig account with permissions to change blockchain parameters.

Each of these roles is filled by approval voting.  The number of Witnesses and Delegates is directly voted upon by the stakeholders.    Each stakeholder must vote for at least as many Witnesses and Delegates as they believe the system should have.   The number of witnesses/delegates is defined such that at least 50% of voting shareholders believe there is sufficient decentralization.  The number of workers is determined by how many workers the available daily budget will cover when paid out to workers from most approved to least approved.


Delegates


The delegates have multi-sig control over a special account dubbed the “genesis account”.  This multi-sig account can do anything any other account can do with a 2 week delay.  If enough delegates are voted out within two weeks of jointly approving a transaction then the transaction will fail to go through.   

The “genesis account” has the unique privilege of changing critical parameters such as: Block Interval, Block Size, Witness Pay Rate, Burn Rate, and even the review period for their own transactions.   

Delegates are not paid positions and are therefore honorary and held by individuals who have a vested interest negotiating changes to the network parameters. 

Legally the delegates have no direct power other than to propose changes for the stakeholders to reject.   This means delegate positions are safe from regulation and power truly rests in the hands of the stakeholders.   

Unlike DPOS 1.0 where each delegate operates independently, under DPOS 2.0 delegates are forced to reach consensus directly before any change can be proposed. 

That certainly defined the roles and their functions, but many other questions remain unanswered. I look forward to your paper and the answers to the questions it will hopefully provide.

Are all delegates required to sign off on the multi-sig account to change anything?

My first impression is DPoS 2.0 sounds better and more formal / mature than DPoS 1.0 and I like it. I am somewhat skeptical about whether the delegate pool (will there be a limit on the number of delegates?) can reach unanimous decisions to satisfy the multi-sig, but the concept seems quite sound.

PS - a minor nit: I don't care for the "witness" label either. Producer, verifier, certify-er, or even "blockhead" seem better, but hey - it's a subjective call, and I can live with it if necessary.
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Offline starspirit

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Suppose stakeholders are simultaneously funding two projects that have a point of irreconcilable conflict in their design (i.e. only one or the other change can exist once made). For example, let's suppose it was two completely different designs for a bitAsset or UIA structure, and the community was divided on which was best. What is the process by which the community would ultimately enforce adoption of one over the other? Is it a case that this could lead to 2 differently coded clients, and how is that resolved by the community/market?

Offline merivercap

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I think witness showed be called producer. Just me 2bts. :) . Witness sounds to removed from the process.

Isn't 'validator' the usual term used?

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Offline clayop

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In DPOS 2.0, what condition makes burned fees (or profits) greater than token newly created (cost)?

I think reverse-dilution is very important point for potential investors.
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Offline clayop

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So we are going to rewrite bitassets ( now up to version 3), and we are going to rewrite dpos (now version 2) and we still haven't got a version 1 of the client.

All this discussion about the micro-management of incentives and roles is no different to the government ruling by decree and setting up distortions and inefficiencies in the free-market.

A seamless Web Client with a contract execution VM, backed by a low-cost distributed consensus algorithm + community is what is needed to attract the people who will build out an ecosystem.

Based on my experience of persuading people to invest Bitshares, almost all of them are not ready to get involved in Blockchain technology. What we need is a firm model in which employees, shareholders, and the blockchain are interplay with healthy profit-cost structure.

Remember, Bitshares is a DAC. People want to be shareholders of this DAC only if it makes profits.
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Offline yiminh

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Yiminh. His paid delegate position says otherwise.   These ideas clearly are focused on decentralizing control and minimizing regulatory risk.   Bitcoin has developers set fees and blocksizes. It is a major challenge to change these this.  With these tools BM is giving us the power to make changes without hard forks or developer intervention.  No one else has anything close. 


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People don't have time to mess with voting of single delegates with so many alt-coins out there, they just sell BTS, that's called voting with your feet, current price means all delegats are voted out!

Offline Ander

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I agree that producer (short for block producer) seems like a better name to me than witness. 

Or maybe even call it a "miner"?



Regarding the genesis account.  Lets say that people wanted to change the block size (a current topic being debated in bitcoin where it is hard to resolve because miners have to agree on a hard fork).  How would that work?

Would the genesis account propose a block size change, and then shareholders vote on it over two weeks?   Would delegates be voting for it?
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zerosum

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Stan used "workers, signers & knob turners", just to confuse things even more.


Quote
Under DPOS 2.0 the roles of delegates have been divided into 3 categories:

Witness - produces blocks and is paid a percentage of transaction fees.
Worker - is paid a fixed number of tokens per day to perform a task
Delegate - co-signer on a dynamic multi-sig account with permissions to change blockchain parameters.





I thinks this makes it clear now (for Thom and others) and easy to remember!

There will be 3 roles:

1) Jehovah's - short from "Jehovah's Witnesses" - produces blocks!

2) Writers - short from "Code Writers" - the main function that a 100% paid delegate in version 1.0 used to do.

3) Signers - also easy to remember from -"co-signer on a dynamic multi-sig signers" as well  as "the main blockchain parameter (the constitution of the blockchain) signers"


 :)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 11:12:26 pm by tonyk2 »

julian1

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So we are going to rewrite bitassets ( now up to version 3), and we are going to rewrite dpos (now version 2) and we still haven't got a version 1 of the client.

All this discussion about the micro-management of incentives and roles is no different to the government ruling by decree and setting up distortions and inefficiencies in the free-market.

A seamless Web Client with a contract execution VM, backed by a low-cost distributed consensus algorithm + community is what is needed to attract the people who will build out an ecosystem.

Offline clayop

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Dob't know if you are stupid or just pretend don't know, the current market cap says you are fired, so get out of BTS space please!

Price does tell something but does not tell everything. The main reason of falling price may be stock market bubbles. When the bubble pops, prepared cryptos will revive.
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Offline sittingduck

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Yiminh. His paid delegate position says otherwise.   These ideas clearly are focused on decentralizing control and minimizing regulatory risk.   Bitcoin has developers set fees and blocksizes. It is a major challenge to change these this.  With these tools BM is giving us the power to make changes without hard forks or developer intervention.  No one else has anything close. 


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Offline Pheonike

I think witness showed be called producer. Just me 2bts. :) . Witness sounds to removed from the process.