Author Topic: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?  (Read 35929 times)

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Offline lil_jay890

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Relax, it's a poll, and anyone should be able to vent all kind of ideas,
which might be helpful to reach a better understanding or a new,
even more confusing idea worthwhile of further exploration.

One thing all can learn, avoiding ad hominem attacks is  +5%
Show all how smart you are re-phrasing more constructively.

We maybe need only a more streamlined reputation system,
one that works across all roles? I don't know, we'll find out…

I hope that knowledgeable people will jump in and explain …

This thread has been basically dead for almost a year...

Offline .

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Relax, it's a poll, and anyone should be able to vent all kind of ideas,
which might be helpful to reach a better understanding or a new,
even more confusing idea worthwhile of further exploration.

One thing all can learn, avoiding ad hominem attacks is  +5%
Show all how smart you are re-phrasing more constructively.

We maybe need only a more streamlined reputation system,
one that works across all roles? I don't know, we'll find out…

I hope that knowledgeable people will jump in and explain …

Offline Yao

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Offline Ander

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Why do the BitShares members take guys like Mr. Code more seriously than anonymous fools like jshow6666 and BJ2 who don't have the guts to reveal their true identities to those whom they plan to transact business with?

Because he is doing work for Bitshares.  He got us a couple media interviews/media articles about Bitshares, translations of the Bitshares 101 videos into various languages, and is continuing to work on other projects.  Thats a lot of contributions from someone who hasnt been paid anything at all yet. 
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Offline fav

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Yeah ken is silly for using his real name and photo likeness and identity to get instant credibility and mad support within the BitShares community. 

I prefer anonymous delegates - no governments can touch them easily, and no prejudgment from the community.

I mean, google some of the names you mentioned. at least one will come up as an accused scammer. False sense of trust comes to mind.

Offline xeroc

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Why do the BitShares members take guys like Mr. Code more seriously than anonymous fools like jshow6666 and BJ2 who don't have the guts to reveal their true identities to those whom they plan to transact business with?  What is this crypto world coming to!  Bitcoin was founded on the principles of anonymous developers (Satoshi), and single points of control (Gavin the forker), and millionaire early adopters, and electricity mining.  BitShares just makes a mockery of everything that is holy in crypto!
We had plenty discussion about this in the past .. and, when it comes to delegation, the consensus was that people need to first establish trust and then may get voted in .. independent of revealing the identity.
In the end, we even came to a consensus that a set of anonymous delegates is a good thing for the network because they cannot be attacked by any government ..
However, all of this will chance with DPOS2 and I am eagerly awaiting what shareholders requirements for witnesses, delegates and workers will be ..

Offline Permie

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I'm just reading through the newly released May edition Nullstreet Journal and @CryptoPrometheus and @DataSecurityNode have written an update about DPOS Hub, which I had forgotten about.

https://bitshares.org/newsletter/2015/nullstreet/the_nullstreet_journal_0-4.pdf

It seems to go a long way to solving some of the accountability issues.

Quote
DPOShub - Update and Progress Report
Delegate:
delegate.dposhub-org
By: Michael Paul Maloney (@CryptoPrometheus)
and Jonathan Baha’i (@DataSecurityNode)
Since last month, Jonathan and I have been working to build a simple, solid, functional and
reliable platform for BitShares delegates (which now includes witnesses and workers) to
organize, publish, and syndicate their shareholder updates and proposals and thus create a
more efficient delivery system for vital shareholder (voter) information. We are also implementing a real time communications network similar to Slack for all account holders
(both delegate and non-delegate), and a message board which will enable users to post
classified listings of Meetups, Jobs/Help Wanted, Professional Services, Resumes and ore.
In essence, the first iteration of DPOShub.org will be a multi-facited web-based application
which will include all of the functionality outlined in Phase 1 of the delegate proposal section of our whitepaper ( http://www.dposhub.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/dposhubdelegateproposal.pdf )
, along with several bonus features that I’ve been told I am not allowed to
speak about yet :).


The DPOS Hub whitepaper discusses how a social media type site for Delegates and Shareholders would allow public profiles provably associated with specific delegates, workers, witnesses or shareholders.
Delegates will be able to release updates, contact information and other important information to the shareholders in a public way that cannot be altered later.

JonnyBitcoin votes for liquidity and simplicity. Make him your proxy?
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Offline Permie

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I don't care about hours or sick days, I care about results.

If such things are relevant for a particular worker position, the worker can commit to any conceivable accountability system off chain, and provide a hash of that signed commitment on chain.  Flexible accountability systems can be enforced manually or by voting scripts if there's support for them, but I see no need to impose a one size fits all solution at the protocol level.
+5%

I support what ken is trying to do, but I don't agree with the implementation proposed.
Accountability is very important for any company but I think the really important factor is access to information.

Registering working hours and sick leave on the blockchain is too far IMO, employees should be free to use their own judgement to complete tasks but shareholders must be made aware of what they are doing.
Voter apathy could become a big issue if the relevant information about tasks (un)completed isn't blatantly obvious and available at the voting screen.
The shareholders need spoon-feeding information if they are to be expected to make rational decisions for the benefit of the DAC.

Easy access to information also reduces the impact of witch-hunts and smear campaigns.  I can easily see that Worker X has been producing on-time and not in fact "living it up on the company dime" like competitor Worker Y wants me to believe.

A level playing field of information keeps everyone honest.
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Cass I agree with you on real identity.
If you want to hide behind cute gravatars and nicknames, that's fine.
 
What I mean is skype. I always skyped with every member of our team. That way I could at least see their face and have real conversation. Telephone conversations with my employees in a different country was never enough.
 
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?
Until you've been accountable for hundreds of globally distributed workers, I don't expect most of you to truly understand where I'm coming from.
 
Let me know when you want to build this company right.


I GOT OVER 20+ YEARS BUSINESS EXPERIENCE! <drops the mic>


If I include the lunch time hustle to buy/sell candy I did  when I was 13 years old even more. :)

I've already stated my opinion on all this previous.. there are 3rd party application that can simply use the API for bitshares code base that you can execute on your own DAC to accomplish this type of management you are talking about.. putting it on the blockchain is going to be very inefficient. 3rd party micromanager type apps that track your every movement are out there.. I don't think it belongs in BitShares as far as the public use of BitShares goes.

I tend to agree with gamey in terms of managing workers. The new paradigm in business is People Planet Profit.. and the People part in that includes the nature of the relationship workers have with the company... the most effective now being part owners. You treat them like trustless slaves like transactions in a blockchain, and they are gladly going to move on to work with someone like me who lets them work with purpose and life.


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Tuck Fheman

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ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?

 :-\

I've only been running my online businesses for 14 years. I bootstrapped them out of my garage, with a high school education indoctrination, no assistance and no rules, while working as a contract laborer for what later became a competitor (who went out of business shortly thereafter). I abused gamed Google and their algo  learned SEO to own two top 10 spots for the search term "____ ______", and many others. I've never paid for advertising, no need. Here's the kicker Ken, no one has a clue who I am, yet all of my sites are still going strong, even through this recession/depression/collapse. And yet, I don't qualify to work for Ken cuz I'm anon.  :-\

Personally, I think you're going to be missing out on a lot of talent with that attitude. But, I do understand your point of view ... it's exactly why I left the 'real world' and started my own world (in muh garage 14 yrs ago) where that attitude (and suits) doesn't exist.

[/ego-challenge]

Tuck Fheman

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One interesting solution, though I'm stealing it from Qora, is hosting html on the blockchain

Tell me more about this mysterious 'Qora' you speak of. Is this some new creation from Satoshi himself? It sounds simply genius from the little bit you've told me.

Tuck Fheman

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
...
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.

*Disclaimer* : Ken's awesome and I someday want to have his baby.

No offense Ken, but you're beginning to sound like a government employee with all of this identification talk. I get your point, but cryptocurrency is probably one of the last places I'd (personally) try to make that pitch. So if Satoshi Nakamoto joins up tomorrow, would you be concerned that you have no clue who they are, or are you hiring them because of what you know they can do? If you do hire SN without knowing who they are, why wasn't I hired (because you didn't need any bad memes created?).

Note : I love you all! Even you jshow!

Offline Akado

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One interesting solution, though I'm stealing it from Qora, is hosting html on the blockchain, that way you could have delegates host pages on the blockchain with their reports. This is the closest to get that stuff in the blockchain that I can think of.

Other than that, if we're taking that seriously is:

-open a sub-section under the delegates section for Delegate Reports only
-have it free of spam and each delegate would have its own thread
-make a sticky thread at the top with the name of each delegate and a link to his thread since we would have dozens of threads.

Done. Stuff is organized, easy to access, people can see date of posts and edits. Simple as that. Then, whenever someone wanted, could just go into that section and have a look around at the work of each delegate. If a delegate doesn't report in a time period a person think he should (my guess from what i've read is 1 month), people would simply ask on the delegate's proposal thread and he would update his Report thread when he can. I think that's simple and organized enough.

Then maybe a table on that thread with the name of each delegate and the dates of each report so it's easier to check and that's it. Done.

What do you think? Pretty simple but I'm actually satisfied if we used that method. Not centralized, no one is enforced to do anything. People would find the info they wanted easily. It's all about organization. I would gladly start a pool if people thing this method is good enough and everyone is happy. A simple sub-section and it's done.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 07:48:59 pm by Akado »
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chryspano

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Could it work if we voted once per year a group of individuals (preferable holders of bts at this point) to do all this work and micromanagement? something like the bitcoin foundation but this group could only be responsible to do the accountability and release a report once per month or per week to the rest of us, they could also have a slate or two that we could use. New delegates/workers could ask approval from this "foundation", they would present their business plan and it could be a big plus if they get the foundation's approval but asking for approval must be optional. In the future wealthy individuals or corporations would propose their own people for the foundation. This "foundation" would be paid by the blockchain. Maybe a silly idea but maybe this can be adapted to a more efficient one.
   

Offline gamey

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Discussing the stupidity of this clown ken, on a 8 page thread never the less,  makes this community look even more desperate and pathetic. To say nothing that every other post same ken is praised as 'one of more effective members of this community'. ken - the self proclaimed  enforcer that even the lead developer should report to! Pretty sad.

His appeal to authority is a bit tedious with the "20 years business experience".  HOWEVER, the guy does do a lot of stuff and is motivated.  Look around. How long have Bitscape etc had 2 delegates and not produced any real content?  (Or did I miss it?) What has Ken produced?  Yea, he is offbase a lot and his background is sketchy but if he is doing the stuff that no one else does then I applaud him. Dan never seemed to be able to hire the right people so we take what we get and if Ken is willing to lead the charge I support him.  I don't support all his ideas which are over the top, but just like everything it isn't black and white. The guy has done useful stuff.
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