Author Topic: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?  (Read 16550 times)

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Offline gamey

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Before anyone sees this as an attack, let me state that I think Kencode is one of the more effective members of this community at this point in time. I just find that he is far too broad in the scope of his suggestions.  I also think he can possibly add to the misunderstanding of the technologies involved with his suggestions.

BTW - A wall burn would be sufficient for a report. I saw no explanation why not. Instead we get suggestions that add great complexity to a project that is already trying to keep its head above the water with what they're currently working on.
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Offline Permie

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Shows little understanding that measuring performance relies on information. Easy access to information, not scattered here and there all over the Internet. The blockchain is the obvious place it should reside, so it is available and readily accessible to all shareholders worldwide. Fines or other "enforcement" measures, if shareholders agree to them, must be coded into the fabric of the ecosystem. That is, by consensus and based on publicly accessible info stored on the blockchain. IMO, "enforcement" should be carried out by the shareholders in the form of votes. It could be considered centralized in the blockchain (i.e. information) but decentralized in shareholder voting / consensus.
+5%

Ken, I've been observing your accountability campaign for a while.
I think your intentions are good but the methods you are proposing are not going to get any traction here.

Delegates (or workers) are never going to apply for a sick leave from a blockchain. This is just unrealistic.
Forcing them to report is just a bad idea. It might work in a corporate world but my gut tells me it is just not going to happen here.

Voters would love to make informed decisions but to do so they need an up-to-date and concise source of information.
So let's give them this information.
Let's vote for one HR delegate whose only duty will be preparing, managing and publishing information about all other delegates, both active and stand-by.
Compile delegates' forum posts and compare their promises with results delivered.
Create a dedicated website for this. Make it clear and keep it up-to-date and show their progress (or lack of it).
Your Google roster was such a good start.

If you were willing to become this HR delegate I'll be glad to vote for you.
You are the man, Ken, you have the passion but please make good use of it.
Perhaps the blockchain could be coded to deterministically assign which delegate should audit which other delegate/worker in a cycle so that every delegate and every worker gets an inspection on average of once every 30 days.
Delegates could be put in rotation to continuously audit each other and worker proposals. Every x blocks a delegate is chosen and they must audit/review/comment-on a selection of delegates and worker proposals. These roles could be known months in advance with all costs budgeted for.
So long as each delegate is reviewed on an acceptably regular basis then accountability shouldn't be an issue as there is only a 30 day window for corruption or laziness.
The method to determine who audits who and when should ensure that a statistically significantly decentralized network of delegates is maintained and would still require 51% collusion in order to scam the auditing process for longer than ~3 months? Or some length of time that makes it profitably untenable.
Basically the same delegates shouldn't be allowed to audit their friends every time. Delegates should be incentivized to truly scrutinize other parties in their audits and their profits should be hurt if they collude.

Perhaps worker proposals are assigned values that ensure that they come up in an audit lottery at least once a month. Delegates then audit the worker as given by the blockchain. The pseudorandom nature of determining who audits which proposal and when should prevent parties knowing in advance who they will audit and therefore cannot plan corruption as easily.

This would enable shareholders to focus on vetting delegates and ensuring they are trustworthy enough to be honest when conducting HR and holding workers accountable.
This extra responsibility of Delegates would not require too much time and would scale well with the delegate pay rate as the market cap increases.
For now, a monthly mumble hangout or skype call along with scrutinizing any 'proof of work' documentation the worker provides should be sufficient.
But in the future when delegates and worker projects increase in scale I can see delegates each hiring HR divisions of 4 or 5 people to complete these blockchain-determined human-enforced tasks on behalf of the shareholders in a decentralized way.

I agree customer service is very very important and love the idea of a system that automatically redirects user requests to one of the available bitshares reps. If that can be efficiently put into the blockchain then I'm all for it.
Is there some way to have more information about a delegate tied to their account in the blockchain? Perhaps it can be edited by voting to edit it with their own stake as proof or something.
Stuff like: Day-specific working hours, Timezone, 'department' etc. that the blockchain can reference when routing requests to relevant online delegates and workers.
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Offline kenCode

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Thank you for clarifying that Gamey.
 
I don't think my 10-points were "broad" however. How they get implemented in code is not that hard either. CRUD - Mongo (or whatever db they use), this data needs to be available to any investor I show our products to.
 
You also nailed it with this:
"a project that is already trying to keep its head above the water"
 
SO true it is.
Dan mentioned in the mumble today that Devs are making all the decisions. Where are the experienced business people?
If you guys want this to be a successful COMPANY as well has having a great product, the two have to work together.
I hope for all our sakes we can come together.
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Offline kenCode

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
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Offline gamey

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.

You have no way to verify their work hours.  Thats why people have managers etc in the real world.  You're just asking for a system where honest people are screwed and the dishonest continue on. That was my point about the blockchain.  You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do.  They do not have anyway to enforce anything except by the economics of their tokens.  So yes you can easily fire someone, but you can't get a blockchain to make that decision, nor can you make the blockchain  report hours in a trustless (? trustful ?) manner.

All people need are tools that shows how much workers are paid and what they've done.

You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?


I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

You were a bigtime developer in early internet days, so you should have some idea about the job market for developers.  At least in the West, they're being paid quite well these days.  The 100% delegate doesn't touch such a salary, but you seem to suggest they should be working 5 days a week.  How do you justify all this?  It is all a bit nuts to me.  One size fits all approach.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:54:32 pm by gamey »
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Offline cass

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.


Completely disagree with you on this ... sry ... but why it is important to reveal your real identity deliver outstanding results?
Then we should talk about what you think are working hours?

When i'm paying 100%, i want to get satisfied by what i'm get delivered and if this are kick ass results ... nothing more!
His real identity isn't important for me ...for you ? Why?

The key question is ... drives a 100% paid worker more value in, then the system is paying for him!



« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:58:12 pm by cass »
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Offline kenCode

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do. 
You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?
I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

I know that. The code makes the decisions, and the blockchain keeps track.
 
"finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day"
Not a problem. I've done just that for over 20 years and multiple types of globally distributed companies.
 
It's not too much to require these basics from the people we are paying.
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Offline Ander

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I dont think we should be micromanaging paid delegates.  Periodic updates are sufficient, especially at these pay levels.  We simply need to see that paid delegates are still working on bitshares projects.  No one likes being micromanaged. 
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Offline jshow5555

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.

You have no way to verify their work hours.  Thats why people have managers etc in the real world.  You're just asking for a system where honest people are screwed and the dishonest continue on. That was my point about the blockchain.  You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do.  They do not have anyway to enforce anything except by the economics of their tokens.  So yes you can easily fire someone, but you can't get a blockchain to make that decision, nor can you make the blockchain  report hours in a trustless (? trustful ?) manner.

All people need are tools that shows how much workers are paid and what they've done.

You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?


I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

You were a bigtime developer in early internet days, so you should have some idea about the job market for developers.  At least in the West, they're being paid quite well these days.  The 100% delegate doesn't touch such a salary, but you seem to suggest they should be working 5 days a week.  How do you justify all this?  It is all a bit nuts to me.  One size fits all approach.

Discussing the stupidity of this clown ken, on a 8 page thread never the less,  makes this community look even more desperate and pathetic. To say nothing that every other post same ken is praised as 'one of more effective members of this community'. ken - the self proclaimed  enforcer that even the lead developer should report to! Pretty sad.

Offline kenCode

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Cass I agree with you on real identity.
If you want to hide behind cute gravatars and nicknames, that's fine.
 
What I mean is skype. I always skyped with every member of our team. That way I could at least see their face and have real conversation. Telephone conversations with my employees in a different country was never enough.
 
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?
Until you've been accountable for hundreds of globally distributed workers, I don't expect most of you to truly understand where I'm coming from.
 
Let me know when you want to build this company right.
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Offline gamey

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do. 
You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?
I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

I know that. The code makes the decisions, and the blockchain keeps track.
 
"finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day"
Not a problem. I've done just that for over 20 years and multiple types of globally distributed companies.
 
It's not too much to require these basics from the people we are paying.

It really depends on the level of work you are doing.  For high-skill white collar jobs, people do not tell their boss what they are "doing tommorow"  At least not on a daily basis which you seemed to be asking for.

And ... you don't understand I'm afraid.  Blockchains/code/DACs can make objective decisions but you keeping asking them to make subjective decisions. That will never work, because it just means the DAC can be gamed.  Thats the whole point of DACs, no one can game them and no one has to trust any specific person.

Now when we started hiring people, subjective opinions need to be made.  They will need to be made by people, not code.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline cass

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Cass I agree with you on real identity.
If you want to hide behind cute gravatars and nicknames, that's fine.
 
What I mean is skype. I always skyped with every member of our team. That way I could at least see their face and have real conversation. Telephone conversations with my employees in a different country was never enough.
 
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?
Until you've been accountable for hundreds of globally distributed workers, I don't expect most of you to truly understand where I'm coming from.
 
Let me know when you want to build this company right.

stop talking, start doing!
Tired of people who want to sell themselves and their ego instead joining this community and get the big picture of what we are trying to build here!

« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 06:21:26 pm by cass »
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Offline gamey

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Discussing the stupidity of this clown ken, on a 8 page thread never the less,  makes this community look even more desperate and pathetic. To say nothing that every other post same ken is praised as 'one of more effective members of this community'. ken - the self proclaimed  enforcer that even the lead developer should report to! Pretty sad.

His appeal to authority is a bit tedious with the "20 years business experience".  HOWEVER, the guy does do a lot of stuff and is motivated.  Look around. How long have Bitscape etc had 2 delegates and not produced any real content?  (Or did I miss it?) What has Ken produced?  Yea, he is offbase a lot and his background is sketchy but if he is doing the stuff that no one else does then I applaud him. Dan never seemed to be able to hire the right people so we take what we get and if Ken is willing to lead the charge I support him.  I don't support all his ideas which are over the top, but just like everything it isn't black and white. The guy has done useful stuff.
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Offline chryspano

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Could it work if we voted once per year a group of individuals (preferable holders of bts at this point) to do all this work and micromanagement? something like the bitcoin foundation but this group could only be responsible to do the accountability and release a report once per month or per week to the rest of us, they could also have a slate or two that we could use. New delegates/workers could ask approval from this "foundation", they would present their business plan and it could be a big plus if they get the foundation's approval but asking for approval must be optional. In the future wealthy individuals or corporations would propose their own people for the foundation. This "foundation" would be paid by the blockchain. Maybe a silly idea but maybe this can be adapted to a more efficient one.
   

Offline Akado

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One interesting solution, though I'm stealing it from Qora, is hosting html on the blockchain, that way you could have delegates host pages on the blockchain with their reports. This is the closest to get that stuff in the blockchain that I can think of.

Other than that, if we're taking that seriously is:

-open a sub-section under the delegates section for Delegate Reports only
-have it free of spam and each delegate would have its own thread
-make a sticky thread at the top with the name of each delegate and a link to his thread since we would have dozens of threads.

Done. Stuff is organized, easy to access, people can see date of posts and edits. Simple as that. Then, whenever someone wanted, could just go into that section and have a look around at the work of each delegate. If a delegate doesn't report in a time period a person think he should (my guess from what i've read is 1 month), people would simply ask on the delegate's proposal thread and he would update his Report thread when he can. I think that's simple and organized enough.

Then maybe a table on that thread with the name of each delegate and the dates of each report so it's easier to check and that's it. Done.

What do you think? Pretty simple but I'm actually satisfied if we used that method. Not centralized, no one is enforced to do anything. People would find the info they wanted easily. It's all about organization. I would gladly start a pool if people thing this method is good enough and everyone is happy. A simple sub-section and it's done.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 07:48:59 pm by Akado »
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