Author Topic: POLL: Should paid Workers be REQUIRED to Publish their accountability info?  (Read 35911 times)

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Offline cass

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Cass I agree with you on real identity.
If you want to hide behind cute gravatars and nicknames, that's fine.
 
What I mean is skype. I always skyped with every member of our team. That way I could at least see their face and have real conversation. Telephone conversations with my employees in a different country was never enough.
 
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?
Until you've been accountable for hundreds of globally distributed workers, I don't expect most of you to truly understand where I'm coming from.
 
Let me know when you want to build this company right.

stop talking, start doing!
Tired of people who want to sell themselves and their ego instead joining this community and get the big picture of what we are trying to build here!

« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 06:21:26 pm by cass »
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Offline gamey

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do. 
You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?
I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

I know that. The code makes the decisions, and the blockchain keeps track.
 
"finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day"
Not a problem. I've done just that for over 20 years and multiple types of globally distributed companies.
 
It's not too much to require these basics from the people we are paying.

It really depends on the level of work you are doing.  For high-skill white collar jobs, people do not tell their boss what they are "doing tommorow"  At least not on a daily basis which you seemed to be asking for.

And ... you don't understand I'm afraid.  Blockchains/code/DACs can make objective decisions but you keeping asking them to make subjective decisions. That will never work, because it just means the DAC can be gamed.  Thats the whole point of DACs, no one can game them and no one has to trust any specific person.

Now when we started hiring people, subjective opinions need to be made.  They will need to be made by people, not code.
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Offline kenCode

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Cass I agree with you on real identity.
If you want to hide behind cute gravatars and nicknames, that's fine.
 
What I mean is skype. I always skyped with every member of our team. That way I could at least see their face and have real conversation. Telephone conversations with my employees in a different country was never enough.
 
ARE THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS PEOPLE IN HERE WITH 20+YRS EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN TALK WITH ABOUT THIS?
Until you've been accountable for hundreds of globally distributed workers, I don't expect most of you to truly understand where I'm coming from.
 
Let me know when you want to build this company right.
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Matrix/Keybase/Hive/Commun/Github: @Agorise
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Offline jshow5555

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.

You have no way to verify their work hours.  Thats why people have managers etc in the real world.  You're just asking for a system where honest people are screwed and the dishonest continue on. That was my point about the blockchain.  You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do.  They do not have anyway to enforce anything except by the economics of their tokens.  So yes you can easily fire someone, but you can't get a blockchain to make that decision, nor can you make the blockchain  report hours in a trustless (? trustful ?) manner.

All people need are tools that shows how much workers are paid and what they've done.

You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?


I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

You were a bigtime developer in early internet days, so you should have some idea about the job market for developers.  At least in the West, they're being paid quite well these days.  The 100% delegate doesn't touch such a salary, but you seem to suggest they should be working 5 days a week.  How do you justify all this?  It is all a bit nuts to me.  One size fits all approach.

Discussing the stupidity of this clown ken, on a 8 page thread never the less,  makes this community look even more desperate and pathetic. To say nothing that every other post same ken is praised as 'one of more effective members of this community'. ken - the self proclaimed  enforcer that even the lead developer should report to! Pretty sad.

Offline Ander

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I dont think we should be micromanaging paid delegates.  Periodic updates are sufficient, especially at these pay levels.  We simply need to see that paid delegates are still working on bitshares projects.  No one likes being micromanaged. 
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Offline kenCode

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do. 
You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?
I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

I know that. The code makes the decisions, and the blockchain keeps track.
 
"finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day"
Not a problem. I've done just that for over 20 years and multiple types of globally distributed companies.
 
It's not too much to require these basics from the people we are paying.
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Offline cass

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.


Completely disagree with you on this ... sry ... but why it is important to reveal your real identity deliver outstanding results?
Then we should talk about what you think are working hours?

When i'm paying 100%, i want to get satisfied by what i'm get delivered and if this are kick ass results ... nothing more!
His real identity isn't important for me ...for you ? Why?

The key question is ... drives a 100% paid worker more value in, then the system is paying for him!



« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:58:12 pm by cass »
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Offline gamey

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.

You have no way to verify their work hours.  Thats why people have managers etc in the real world.  You're just asking for a system where honest people are screwed and the dishonest continue on. That was my point about the blockchain.  You are misunderstanding what blockchains can do.  They do not have anyway to enforce anything except by the economics of their tokens.  So yes you can easily fire someone, but you can't get a blockchain to make that decision, nor can you make the blockchain  report hours in a trustless (? trustful ?) manner.

All people need are tools that shows how much workers are paid and what they've done.

You shouldn't have to babysit the employees, but if you ask too much you'll never ever hire talent that is anywhere near the top. I personally would never work for such a micromanager. Goodluck finding a productive employee that does high level work and is willing to tell everyone what they're going to do the next day .. and if they do thats just time they could be doing work, no?


I liked the idea of the blockchain hiring people, but never liked the idea of having 100000s of bosses. The reason should be obvious.

You were a bigtime developer in early internet days, so you should have some idea about the job market for developers.  At least in the West, they're being paid quite well these days.  The 100% delegate doesn't touch such a salary, but you seem to suggest they should be working 5 days a week.  How do you justify all this?  It is all a bit nuts to me.  One size fits all approach.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:54:32 pm by gamey »
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline kenCode

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Think of paid Workers like government employees..
 
Everybody knows what the Postman does all day.
Everybody knows what the Toll-Booth worker does all day.
Everybody knows what the public kindergarten teacher does all day.
 
But what did the Postal Service warehouse guy do all day today? Yesterday? What did he say he would have done by thursday of next week?
 
If he's a 100% payrate worker, then he should be proving himself 5 days/week, right?
 
So what was that logo designer doing for the last 2 months? What's she going to get done tomorrow?
 
Basics guys, that's all I'm asking. Work hours are part of keeping track too.
If I'm/we're paying someone 100% (a full time job) then I want to know what his real name is, I want to see his face once in a while and I want him to tell ME what's been going on. I shouldn't have to babysit our employees.
 
Let BlockchainHR at least handle these basics.
That's not too much to ask from someone who is using your money.
kenCode - Decentraliser @ Agorise
Matrix/Keybase/Hive/Commun/Github: @Agorise
www.PalmPay.chat

Offline kenCode

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Thank you for clarifying that Gamey.
 
I don't think my 10-points were "broad" however. How they get implemented in code is not that hard either. CRUD - Mongo (or whatever db they use), this data needs to be available to any investor I show our products to.
 
You also nailed it with this:
"a project that is already trying to keep its head above the water"
 
SO true it is.
Dan mentioned in the mumble today that Devs are making all the decisions. Where are the experienced business people?
If you guys want this to be a successful COMPANY as well has having a great product, the two have to work together.
I hope for all our sakes we can come together.
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Offline Permie

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Shows little understanding that measuring performance relies on information. Easy access to information, not scattered here and there all over the Internet. The blockchain is the obvious place it should reside, so it is available and readily accessible to all shareholders worldwide. Fines or other "enforcement" measures, if shareholders agree to them, must be coded into the fabric of the ecosystem. That is, by consensus and based on publicly accessible info stored on the blockchain. IMO, "enforcement" should be carried out by the shareholders in the form of votes. It could be considered centralized in the blockchain (i.e. information) but decentralized in shareholder voting / consensus.
+5%

Ken, I've been observing your accountability campaign for a while.
I think your intentions are good but the methods you are proposing are not going to get any traction here.

Delegates (or workers) are never going to apply for a sick leave from a blockchain. This is just unrealistic.
Forcing them to report is just a bad idea. It might work in a corporate world but my gut tells me it is just not going to happen here.

Voters would love to make informed decisions but to do so they need an up-to-date and concise source of information.
So let's give them this information.
Let's vote for one HR delegate whose only duty will be preparing, managing and publishing information about all other delegates, both active and stand-by.
Compile delegates' forum posts and compare their promises with results delivered.
Create a dedicated website for this. Make it clear and keep it up-to-date and show their progress (or lack of it).
Your Google roster was such a good start.

If you were willing to become this HR delegate I'll be glad to vote for you.
You are the man, Ken, you have the passion but please make good use of it.
Perhaps the blockchain could be coded to deterministically assign which delegate should audit which other delegate/worker in a cycle so that every delegate and every worker gets an inspection on average of once every 30 days.
Delegates could be put in rotation to continuously audit each other and worker proposals. Every x blocks a delegate is chosen and they must audit/review/comment-on a selection of delegates and worker proposals. These roles could be known months in advance with all costs budgeted for.
So long as each delegate is reviewed on an acceptably regular basis then accountability shouldn't be an issue as there is only a 30 day window for corruption or laziness.
The method to determine who audits who and when should ensure that a statistically significantly decentralized network of delegates is maintained and would still require 51% collusion in order to scam the auditing process for longer than ~3 months? Or some length of time that makes it profitably untenable.
Basically the same delegates shouldn't be allowed to audit their friends every time. Delegates should be incentivized to truly scrutinize other parties in their audits and their profits should be hurt if they collude.

Perhaps worker proposals are assigned values that ensure that they come up in an audit lottery at least once a month. Delegates then audit the worker as given by the blockchain. The pseudorandom nature of determining who audits which proposal and when should prevent parties knowing in advance who they will audit and therefore cannot plan corruption as easily.

This would enable shareholders to focus on vetting delegates and ensuring they are trustworthy enough to be honest when conducting HR and holding workers accountable.
This extra responsibility of Delegates would not require too much time and would scale well with the delegate pay rate as the market cap increases.
For now, a monthly mumble hangout or skype call along with scrutinizing any 'proof of work' documentation the worker provides should be sufficient.
But in the future when delegates and worker projects increase in scale I can see delegates each hiring HR divisions of 4 or 5 people to complete these blockchain-determined human-enforced tasks on behalf of the shareholders in a decentralized way.

I agree customer service is very very important and love the idea of a system that automatically redirects user requests to one of the available bitshares reps. If that can be efficiently put into the blockchain then I'm all for it.
Is there some way to have more information about a delegate tied to their account in the blockchain? Perhaps it can be edited by voting to edit it with their own stake as proof or something.
Stuff like: Day-specific working hours, Timezone, 'department' etc. that the blockchain can reference when routing requests to relevant online delegates and workers.
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Offline gamey

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Before anyone sees this as an attack, let me state that I think Kencode is one of the more effective members of this community at this point in time. I just find that he is far too broad in the scope of his suggestions.  I also think he can possibly add to the misunderstanding of the technologies involved with his suggestions.

BTW - A wall burn would be sufficient for a report. I saw no explanation why not. Instead we get suggestions that add great complexity to a project that is already trying to keep its head above the water with what they're currently working on.
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Offline Ander

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I don't care about hours or sick days, I care about results.

Yes, this.

Also, you guys somehow managed to steer this thread back to its original topic, away from our threadjack! :P
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Offline Troglodactyl

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I don't care about hours or sick days, I care about results.

If such things are relevant for a particular worker position, the worker can commit to any conceivable accountability system off chain, and provide a hash of that signed commitment on chain.  Flexible accountability systems can be enforced manually or by voting scripts if there's support for them, but I see no need to impose a one size fits all solution at the protocol level.

Offline gamey

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Reports and Proposals won't fit on a wall, that's asking too much.
 
It sounds like you're not too fond of Factom or Open Transactions. Moonstone has Partnered with them and will be using OT tech as well, so they can't be that bad. I see Factom doing a lot of good things too in securing property registers and such as well.
Factom and Storj are just examples, ways we could access large chunks of data with our blockchain.
 
Automated firing/hiring/rewards - It's very tough to manage a globally distributed team of people, especially in a large company with hundreds of workers.
 
No mud here, just perfect clarity. If an employee has 2-weeks of vacation time each year, works M-F, 9-5, has two 15min breaks per shift, then we can calculate how many days they have left (also sick days, paternal, etc). If we need say, 10 Tech Support people, the blockchain will know who is on, who is off, and who will be gone during what days. Now, when a customer calls and needs Tech Support, the blockchain will instantly reveal who is available that second. We could even code it in (like the forum "Notify" feature) to randomly contact one of those available people. Customer Service is everything.
 
Those are just a few of the great things that can come from really having our proverbial *shit* together, ya know?
At least the "basics". See my definition of that a few posts back..

I have nothing against OT or Factom. I happen to have a friend and acquaintances that worked for Monetas and I know a large amount of the Factom team personally to some degree and would consider one of their highest level guys a friend.  So no, it has nothing to do with that.  Good try though.  You just namedrop technologies without any suggestion of why you think we should use them.  Moonstone doesn't have their own blockchain AFAIK so Factom could be a better fit.  The question was never about the quality of their technology, the question is how exactly would we use them?  Please answer in a broad overview sense, yet with some specifics. You don't do that though because you seem to not understand the technology very well. This discussion does muddy the waters as it is more vapid cheerleading than trying to vet which ideas are useful and which aren't.

Approval of vacations is far different from saying you are on vacation. Since everyone is remote these accountability approaches are near worthless.  Sure, use the blockchain to store information. Do not use the blockchain to "approve" vacations and some half-assed automated firing mechanism.

edit - Blockchains are great for transferring data/value across a write-only database. They completely fail when one tries to tie much more into what blockchains can do.  Like automated firing by having the blockchain come to consensus whether or not the periodic report was sufficient.... that is silly.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:06:26 pm by gamey »
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