Bitshares price discussion

[intelliguy]

Polo admins hate bts..

Poloniex, a centralized exchange that rakes in profit for a few, hates a decentralized exchange that could steal the money out of their pockets.
Do they hate it because the DEX is a threat to their business?

If the Bitshares DEX becomes popular, it is definitely a threat to centralized exchanges business.  This is why we need to capitalize on that fact.

If I want to buy Bitshares, and all I have is Bitcoin, must I go to shapeshift.io is that my only option?  As far as I know, shapeshift just runs API's to centralized exchanges to charges a premium for the conversion.

We really need to pay attention to our entry and exit points on the Bitshares platform and build some solutions that aren't dependent on centralized exchanges at all.

If the centralized exchanges wanted, they could destroy BTS in a second.  They control enough BTS to vote in whoever they want.  One of the GIANT flaws in bts that almost everyone around here sweeps under the rug or chooses to ignore...  Just another reason DEX adoption has been tepid.

AGREED.  We need this type of discussion.  @lil_jay890 I find a lot of people argue your points for the reason that if you're not correct, we don't have anything to worry about.   I do think you are correct in everything you've said.   You even did it in easy to understand plain language.

While the discussion is hot, I hope:

• We brainstorm some solutions to these problems
• Multiple entrepreneurs see the proposed solutions and opportunities to build something that will help solve them

(I *changed* the original quote from @lil_jay890 and re-wrote it to show cryptocurrency examples)

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If you have ever seen "Wolf of Wall Street" there is a good, yet vulgar, scene that explains how centralized exchanges make money:

Matthew Mcconaughey: "Fuck the Users.  Your only responsibility is to put meat on the table"
"Name of the Game, move the money from the Users pocket into your pocket"

Leo: "Right, but if you can make the Users money at the same time it's advantageous for everyone, correct?"

Matthew Mcconaughey: "Wrong... If you got a buyer who bought DASH at 86 and now its at 96, he's all fucking happy and wants to CASH IN.  Liquidate and take his money and run home. YOU DON'T LET HIM DO THAT!"
"You know what you do, you get another brilliant idea.  You get him buying ETH to reinvest his earnings and then some."
"Meanwhile he thinks he is getting shit rich, which he is, on an "virtual" exchange wallet.  But you and me, the centralized exchanges, we're taking home cold hard cash via commission."

Leo: "Right, that's incredible sir..."

Matthew Mcconaughey: "Keep the Users on the centralized exchange ferris wheel.  That's the name of the game".

Leo: "What if our centralized exchange gets hacked?"

Matthew Mcconaughey: "Just shut it down, take whatever balances you have, and dump them.  Re-open a new exchange later, or take a few months in the Bahamas and come back under a different name"

If bts token holders want to make money, you need more money entering than leaving.  You need to appeal to the gambling/risk taking side of people.  You need to have them keep investing, 

*AND* They need to understand that their money is a LOT safer in a decentralized exchange, where they always hold the keys and authority to their wallet balance at all times.
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The bitshares echosystem is a fantastic concept.  It solves MTGox. It solves Cryptsy.  It solves lots of issues.

However, people always run to where the largest noise is... We're not shooting fireworks off, nor is there any band playing.   We have the quietest party on the block.

Yes, coinmarketcap.com will drive attention  (not just banner ads either, but price movement works the best).

But there must be other ways to reach these crowds.  I do like @Geneko's ideas:

Any icoo that is issued on dex mast collect funds thru DEX.
 
The account used must be multisig with milestones attached for gradual releasing funds.

That would provide transparency of project development and provide guaranties funds would be spend as intended.
In case project fail in any way all remained funds would be send back proportionally to initial investors and UIA added prefix abandoned or ex.

Reasoning behind this is that it wouldn't be appropriate to restrict such UIAs.

But it is our duty to take care of designing icoo feature that has community support. We should provide guidance how official icoo should look like. All other UIAs should be considered shitUIAs until prove otherwise and the one should approach it as such.

We could also add some comments in GUI such as official - followed by explanation and free(shit) - followed by explanation, in case someone want to buy. These explanation should be also added in tutorial page.

The industry is so greed focused, no one even knows what a proper UIA and ICO should look like...  Bitshares can give users a safe feeling if we use the features to...

* lower buyer risk

* lower seller risk

* lower UIA risk

Your UIA tokens and BTS always belong to you unless you sign a trade.  That's such a mind blowing feature that most kiddies playing on centralized exchange don't even understand.  We don't have virtual wallet balances here.  That's just awesome.

Case Scenario

You have 5000 bitshares in your wallet, but 200 of them are in an open trade.

How many Bitshares do you actually have?

On Poloniex Wallet			On BTC-e Wallet			On OpenLedger Wallet
0 BTS (virtual wallet)			0 BTS (virtual wallet)			4800 BTS, +200 waiting for trade (real wallet)

[mr-whitekey]

@Thom more importantly I want to stress the lack of marketing. And also that for some reason everyone hates BTS.. Try to say BTS to the moon in Polo troll box twice and you are banned..On the other hand everyone else scream all the time moon for ETH,DASH and everything else they want to promote and no one is banned.. Polo admins hate bts..

Poloniex, a centralized exchange that rakes in profit for a few, hates a decentralized exchange that could steal the money out of their pockets.
Do they hate it because the DEX is a threat to their business?
Or do they hate it because they are mal-informed and just think its one more shitcoin

If the centralized exchanges wanted, they could destroy BTS in a second.  They control enough BTS to vote in whoever they want.  One of the GIANT flaws in bts that almost everyone around here sweeps under the rug or chooses to ignore...  Just another reason DEX adoption has been tepid.

Hear! hear! Like the way you think. If we address many of your points one by one we can be excellent.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[lil_jay890]

@Thom more importantly I want to stress the lack of marketing. And also that for some reason everyone hates BTS.. Try to say BTS to the moon in Polo troll box twice and you are banned..On the other hand everyone else scream all the time moon for ETH,DASH and everything else they want to promote and no one is banned.. Polo admins hate bts..

Poloniex, a centralized exchange that rakes in profit for a few, hates a decentralized exchange that could steal the money out of their pockets.
Do they hate it because the DEX is a threat to their business?
Or do they hate it because they are mal-informed and just think its one more shitcoin

If the centralized exchanges wanted, they could destroy BTS in a second.  They control enough BTS to vote in whoever they want.  One of the GIANT flaws in bts that almost everyone around here sweeps under the rug or chooses to ignore...  Just another reason DEX adoption has been tepid.

[Permie]

@Thom more importantly I want to stress the lack of marketing. And also that for some reason everyone hates BTS.. Try to say BTS to the moon in Polo troll box twice and you are banned..On the other hand everyone else scream all the time moon for ETH,DASH and everything else they want to promote and no one is banned.. Polo admins hate bts..

Poloniex, a centralized exchange that rakes in profit for a few, hates a decentralized exchange that could steal the money out of their pockets.
Do they hate it because the DEX is a threat to their business?
Or do they hate it because they are mal-informed and just think its one more shitcoin

[mf-tzo]

I fully agree..I have been saying that for the last year. I even posted on steemit a year ago how the reserve pool can be used to reward bitasset holders with interest on their deposit..but no one listens..

[天籁]

@Thom more importantly I want to stress the lack of marketing. And also that for some reason everyone hates BTS.. Try to say BTS to the moon in Polo troll box twice and you are banned..On the other hand everyone else scream all the time moon for ETH,DASH and everything else they want to promote and no one is banned.. Polo admins hate bts..

Lack of marketing. We need to use part of the pool reserve funds for marketing. Pay Coindesk, coin news, advertise in coinmarketcap, whatever you feel like to show articles to promote bts. We need to remind to people that bts is the first platform for smart contracts, for bitassets pegged, is stable for more than 2 years, it is super fast etc..People need to understand that bts does what the other shit ICOs promisse to do in the future already for the last 2 years..

 We need to use part of the pool reserve funds for the buyback of BTS, quickly and greatly increase the marketcap.

[mf-tzo]

@Thom more importantly I want to stress the lack of marketing. And also that for some reason everyone hates BTS.. Try to say BTS to the moon in Polo troll box twice and you are banned..On the other hand everyone else scream all the time moon for ETH,DASH and everything else they want to promote and no one is banned.. Polo admins hate bts..

Lack of marketing. We need to use part of the pool reserve funds for marketing. Pay Coindesk, coin news, advertise in coinmarketcap, whatever you feel like to show articles to promote bts. We need to remind to people that bts is the first platform for smart contracts, for bitassets pegged, is stable for more than 2 years, it is super fast etc..People need to understand that bts does what the other shit ICOs promisse to do in the future already for the last 2 years..

[Thom]

Although IMO mf-tzo has a more accurate list of causes for the low mktcap, lil_jay890 makes a very good point about the sell pressure ICOs cause. Although that isn't so good for the health of the DEX, it IS good in that these UIAs are only available on the DEX. If the ICOs required bitUSD to invest it would be better for the DEX but not so much for the ICO.

Tradeoffs. Who knows what the best balance of these interests are. I believe other concerns in mf-tzo's list are higher priority than restructuring ICO offerings, particularly marketing.

@lil_jay890 I seriously doubt that the reason bts price is low is due to the ICOs.. The true reasons bts price is low are the following IMHO:

1) People keep a lot of bts in external exchnages
2) People do not follow @bitcrab example in locking their bts and short sell bitassets. When bts was first launched we had bitusd $1 mil in existence and bts was worth between $0.03 - $0.05 (that is x8-x10 of current price).. The drop happened after the great idea of the merger and the huge reduction of bitassets supply because whales rushed to dump their holdings
3) Serious lack of marketing. We do not even spend a few dollars from the reserve pool to advertise bts in coinmarketcap at least..
4) Whenever the price is slightly up, most people rush to dump their bts holdings..
5) People have forgotten the vision of bts. Luckily a lot of people still believe in bts so we need to remind to others what bts can do to change our lives.

All you have to look at is the order books for basically any popular uia... They are totally skewed to the sell side. These sellers didn't invest in the uia with bts... They sent BTC or ethereum during the crowd sale and now they are trying to get out.  They need to dump for bts, send the bts to a centralized exchange, and then dump bts for BTC.... That addresses why there is so much bts on the centralized exchanges.

If the icos were actually bringing money into the bts ecosystem the order books would at least be level or slightly skewed to the buy side in these uias.

[lil_jay890]

@lil_jay890 I seriously doubt that the reason bts price is low is due to the ICOs.. The true reasons bts price is low are the following IMHO:

1) People keep a lot of bts in external exchnages
2) People do not follow @bitcrab example in locking their bts and short sell bitassets. When bts was first launched we had bitusd $1 mil in existence and bts was worth between $0.03 - $0.05 (that is x8-x10 of current price).. The drop happened after the great idea of the merger and the huge reduction of bitassets supply because whales rushed to dump their holdings
3) Serious lack of marketing. We do not even spend a few dollars from the reserve pool to advertise bts in coinmarketcap at least..
4) Whenever the price is slightly up, most people rush to dump their bts holdings..
5) People have forgotten the vision of bts. Luckily a lot of people still believe in bts so we need to remind to others what bts can do to change our lives.

All you have to look at is the order books for basically any popular uia... They are totally skewed to the sell side. These sellers didn't invest in the uia with bts... They sent BTC or ethereum during the crowd sale and now they are trying to get out.  They need to dump for bts, send the bts to a centralized exchange, and then dump bts for BTC.... That addresses why there is so much bts on the centralized exchanges.

If the icos were actually bringing money into the bts ecosystem the order books would at least be level or slightly skewed to the buy side in these uias.

[mf-tzo]

I am a shorter as well...I have been shorting all kind of bitassets from the beginning and try to accumulate as much bts as possible..So far I have lost bts but will reverse.. Some people accumulate btc..some others accumulate bts..

[bitcrab]

I believe that the BTS price will not drop below 0.03CNY, for ever.
I'll keep on collecting more BTS and shorting out more smartcoins.shorter in BTS ecosystem is like miner in BTC ecosystem, they collect BTS, short out smartcoins, and try to activate the market and extend the adoption of smartcoins, within these the BTS will get higher solid price base and benefit the shorters and all the ecosystem.
I am a shorter. welcome to be a shorter.

[mf-tzo]

@lil_jay890 I seriously doubt that the reason bts price is low is due to the ICOs.. The true reasons bts price is low are the following IMHO:

1) People keep a lot of bts in external exchnages
2) People do not follow @bitcrab example in locking their bts and short sell bitassets. When bts was first launched we had bitusd $1 mil in existence and bts was worth between $0.03 - $0.05 (that is x8-x10 of current price).. The drop happened after the great idea of the merger and the huge reduction of bitassets supply because whales rushed to dump their holdings
3) Serious lack of marketing. We do not even spend a few dollars from the reserve pool to advertise bts in coinmarketcap at least..
4) Whenever the price is slightly up, most people rush to dump their bts holdings..
5) People have forgotten the vision of bts. Luckily a lot of people still believe in bts so we need to remind to others what bts can do to change our lives.

[lil_jay890]

The problem has nothing to do with these ICOs. If BTS could blame its falling market cap on ICOs then Bitcoin and Ethereum would also be experiencing the same phenomena. How many ICOs are denominated in Bitcoin or Eth! The reality is more ppl want those projects than want Bitshares. We have not sold our product to the masses well enough or they see something that we do not. Likely it is both. Bitcoin was able to market itself as a decentralized payment network because it was number one. There are only so many hard money/deflationary money folk in this world and bitcoin got to them first. They are now brand loyal and where they do branch out they do so into "privacy coins". They are not worried about 3sec transactions, bitshares' main working attraction. Remember they are hoarders, they want bitcoin mainly for ideology, but also to "make money" speculating.  The next group of people that demand cryptos are the ones whom need it for illicit use. Again, BTS has not met this need and they go elsewhere for their cloaked/privacy transactions. Even if we implement it soon, will we have missed the boat again? The market is letting us know that we have not met its need enough to overcome prior inertia.     

The problem is the ICO's... Ethereum and Bitcoin are both much deeper markets than BTS and can handle the ICO's.  There is no where near enough liquidity on the DEX to handle all the sell pressure. 

What you are missing with the projects that raised money in BTC or ETH is that the investors had to enter the BTC or ETH ecosystem by purchasing BTC or ETH with fiat.  Bitshares UIA investors do not have to enter the BTS ecosystem in order to invest in the UIA... they can just buy BTC or ETH and send it to the UIA issuer.  The the UIA issuer sends the newly created UIA to the investor.  When a UIA investor wants to get out they sell the UIA for BTS and in most cases have no interest in holding volatile BTS so they sell the BTS for BTC or ETH.  This is the reason for the constant sell pressure, more energy leaving the system than entering.

This problem could be fixed if these UIA investors had to enter the BTS ecosystem before they could invest... That is impossible the way the current system is designed.  There needs to be a reason for them to stay in the system.  This is how Wall Street makes money... They keep people in the game.

If you have ever seen "Wolf of Wall Street" there is a good, yet vulgar, scene that explains how wall street makes money:

Matthew Mcconaughey: "Fuck the Clients.  Your only responsibility is to put meat on the table"
"Name of the Game, move the money from the clients pocket into your pocket"

Leo: "Right, but if you can make the clients money at the same time it's advantageous for everyone, correct?"

Matthew Mcconaughey: "Wrong... If you got a client who bought a stock at 8 and now its at 16, he's all fucking happy and wants to CASH IN.  Liquidate and take his money and run home. YOU DON'T LET HIM DO THAT!"
"You know what you do, you get another brilliant idea.  You get him another stock to reinvest his earnings and then some."
"Meanwhile he thinks he is getting shit rich, which he is, ON PAPER.  But you and me, the brokers, we're taking home cold hard cash via commission."

Leo: "Right, that's incredible sir..."

Matthew Mcconaughey: "Keep the clients on the ferris wheel.  That's the name of the game".

Bitshares is the game.  If bts token holders want to make money, you need more money entering than leaving.  You need to appeal to the gambling/risk taking side of people.  You need to have them keep investing, 

[mr-whitekey]

The problem has nothing to do with these ICOs. If BTS could blame its falling market cap on ICOs then Bitcoin and Ethereum would also be experiencing the same phenomena. How many ICOs are denominated in Bitcoin or Eth! The reality is more ppl want those projects than want Bitshares. We have not sold our product to the masses well enough or they see something that we do not. Likely it is both. Bitcoin was able to market itself as a decentralized payment network because it was number one. There are only so many hard money/deflationary money folk in this world and bitcoin got to them first. They are now brand loyal and where they do branch out they do so into "privacy coins". They are not worried about 3sec transactions, bitshares' main working attraction. Remember they are hoarders, they want bitcoin mainly for ideology, but also to "make money" speculating.  The next group of people that demand cryptos are the ones whom need it for illicit use. Again, BTS has not met this need and they go elsewhere for their cloaked/privacy transactions. Even if we implement it soon, will we have missed the boat again? The market is letting us know that we have not met its need enough to overcome prior inertia.       

[Geneko]

We need to propose some possible solutions to this madness..  Any ideas?

That could be easily solved.

Any icoo that is issued on dex mast collect funds thru DEX.
The account used must be multisig with milestones attached for gradual releasing funds.
That would provide transparency of project development and provide guaranties funds would be spend as intended.
In case project fail in any way all remained funds would be send back proportionally to initial investors and UIA added prefix abandoned or ex.

Reasoning behind this is that it wouldn't be appropriate to restrict such UIAs. But it is our duty to take care of designing icoo feature that has community support. We should provide guidance how official icoo should look like. All other UIAs should be considered shitUIAs until prove otherwise and the one should approach it as such. We could also add some comments in GUI such as official - followed by explanation and free(shit) - followed by explanation, in case someone want to buy. These explanation should be also added in tutorial page.