First 16 BitAssets? (previously: How does a BitAsset first appear in a chain?)

[MaxPWR]

hehe - I say you need the most basic commodity that all these cryptos are based on - electricity.

But...you'd need really fast confirmation times

Or, you could do its centrist proxy - carbon credits.

Please don't do carbon credits...

[bytemaster]

Only the currency chain will be limited to 16. It all comes down trx volume. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[speedy]

Ok Im sure its fine, but I still have my doubts about each chain only having 16 assets.

Lets say I use the first chain Bitshares X to make a profit on USD - I then have to trade that altcoin away before I can use the profit to trade on the Bitshares NYSE chain, and even then I can only trade a subset of 16 stocks in the NYSE. Wouldnt this be a limitation and a hassle for most serious traders? Its seems really complicated to actually use. Add to this the fact that the profit from 1 chain is worth less than the equivalent PTS invested to get in, because PTS gets you all chains.

Today you can get a regular spread betting account that lets you trade anything in the world from the convenience of 1 account. Why cant this eventually be possible with Bitshares?

And btw is there any time frame for a stocks chain? Stocks would be even more interesting than currencies because you could trade outside of normal hours.

[bytemaster]

Thanks for the explanation. Yes having separate blockchains for the type of markets you are interested is definitely a clever efficiency mechanism.

So do you envision one chain for currencies, one for the NASDAQ, one for the FTSE etc?

And are the separate chains initiated by Invictus, or can anyone start a chain?

Anyone can start one, but the SCSL license on the BitShares code will require honoring PTS/AGS holders

What if someone basically copies the BTS source code for a new chain but changes it a little bit?

They still have to honor AGS/PTS holders with at least 10% and anyone could fork their code to honor AGS/PTS holders with 50/50 if they attempt to claim 80% for a few small changes.

[santaclause102]

Thanks for the explanation. Yes having separate blockchains for the type of markets you are interested is definitely a clever efficiency mechanism.

So do you envision one chain for currencies, one for the NASDAQ, one for the FTSE etc?

And are the separate chains initiated by Invictus, or can anyone start a chain?

Anyone can start one, but the SCSL license on the BitShares code will require honoring PTS/AGS holders

What if someone basically copies the BTS source code for a new chain but changes it a little bit?

[Amazon]

While I don't disagree with anything specific I think we ought to have more discussion about the assets in the original chain before launch.
What's the reasoning behind having such an emphasis on currencies?

Current distribution:
1 BTS
1 cryptocoin (BTC)
2 bullion (gold, silver)
1 commodity (oil)
1 stock (I3)
10 currencies

I don't think it is necessary to have 10 currencies. Trading USD is like trading with entire FOREX market.

[bytemaster]

While I don't disagree with anything specific I think we ought to have more discussion about the assets in the original chain before launch.
What's the reasoning behind having such an emphasis on currencies?

Current distribution:
1 BTS
1 cryptocoin (BTC)
2 bullion (gold, silver)
1 commodity (oil)
1 stock (I3)
10 currencies

Because currencies are the most heavily traded against one another.  I would like to group chains by sectors of the market.  I view gold/silver as currencies.   Oil and I3 are the only to outliers but because Oil is backing the dollar and i3 is the creator of it I thought it would be a good mix. 

[toast]

While I don't disagree with anything specific I think we ought to have more discussion about the assets in the original chain before launch.
What's the reasoning behind having such an emphasis on currencies?

Current distribution:
1 BTS
1 cryptocoin (BTC)
2 bullion (gold, silver)
1 commodity (oil)
1 stock (I3)
10 currencies

[bytemaster]

Will this create different Bitshare prices?

BitShares is more of a category, the chains will have names such as:

TechShares, EnergyShares, CurrencyShares and each will have a different price based upon supply and demand.

[Bitcoinfan]

Will this create different Bitshare prices?

[bytemaster]

Anyone can start one, but the SCSL license on the BitShares code will require honoring PTS/AGS holders

I better hold on to my PTS then

One more question - if there are separate blockchains for each group/type of assets, do I have a separate balance for each of them? If I make a profitable trade in one chain, will I then have to trade that profit on an exchange if I want to switch to a different chain?

Btw I think Bitshares could be a game changer because it will allow people to get around so many national restrictions. For example the Chinese have restrictions on investing in overseas assets, whilst the US has restrictions on CFD trading. Bitshares just allows everyone to get around all of this. Anonymous decentralized trading on any asset in the world - this could be as big as bitcoin itself.

Bigger than bitcoin

Each chain is separate and is a unique DAC with its own stock which will float against other DACs. 

Cross chain trading should facilitate trading between chains.

[speedy]

Anyone can start one, but the SCSL license on the BitShares code will require honoring PTS/AGS holders

I better hold on to my PTS then

One more question - if there are separate blockchains for each group/type of assets, do I have a separate balance for each of them? If I make a profitable trade in one chain, will I then have to trade that profit on an exchange if I want to switch to a different chain?

Btw I think Bitshares could be a game changer because it will allow people to get around so many national restrictions. For example the Chinese have restrictions on investing in overseas assets, whilst the US has restrictions on CFD trading. Bitshares just allows everyone to get around all of this. Anonymous decentralized trading on any asset in the world - this could be as big as bitcoin itself.

[bytemaster]

Thanks for the explanation. Yes having separate blockchains for the type of markets you are interested is definitely a clever efficiency mechanism.

So do you envision one chain for currencies, one for the NASDAQ, one for the FTSE etc?

And are the separate chains initiated by Invictus, or can anyone start a chain?

Anyone can start one, but the SCSL license on the BitShares code will require honoring PTS/AGS holders

[speedy]

Thanks for the explanation. Yes having separate blockchains for the type of markets you are interested is definitely a clever efficiency mechanism.

So do you envision one chain for currencies, one for the NASDAQ, one for the FTSE etc?

And are the separate chains initiated by Invictus, or can anyone start a chain?

[bytemaster]

Will it be possible to use Bitshares to trade on stocks as well? That asset enum has only 16 values at the moment, but will it eventually be extended to include popular stocks such as Apple, Google etc?

It seems a bit limiting to have a fixed enum for assets - wouldnt it be possible to allow the bitshare holders to vote new assets into existence?

 The issue isn't the number of assets, but the volume of transactions.  Unlike bitcoin, a market blockchain would have many more transactions.  Too many markets on a single chain will result in high transaction fees.

  This is why we have many competing BitShares chains and why owning AGS / PTS is important because it will get you a cut in EVERY chain not just the first.

[speedy]

Will it be possible to use Bitshares to trade on stocks as well? That asset enum has only 16 values at the moment, but will it eventually be extended to include popular stocks such as Apple, Google etc?

It seems a bit limiting to have a fixed enum for assets - wouldnt it be possible to allow the bitshare holders to vote new assets into existence?

[bytemaster]

Since bytemaster changed the thread topic to "First 32 BitAssets?" does that mean 32 is fine or is this number up to discussion as well?

My choice of stock indices was: One global one and one for every major economy (including BRIC but without Russia).
If 16 BitAssets is the limit I would kick them altogether.

I thought of CHF but economy and population are tiny. Where did you get the #5 rank from?

SEK and HKD I would kick in favour of INR and BRL.  Greater São Paulo and Mumbai each have far more inhabitants than Sweden and Hong Kong combined

Futures on food is a hot topic so I thought of leaving them out for now.

I didn't change the topic, but 32 was the spec from the white paper.  Upon further review I think having fewer per chain is better.

Bytemaster, do you plan to have a Bitasset character limit?  Such as 4 character maximum after the word bit.  eg. BitUSD, BitAAPL.  I feel like limiting to 4 characters will allow for more standardization, reflecting public markets more closely. 

We can see how it can get crazy with BitGoogle, BitGOOG, BitTwitter, BitTWTR, BitGold, BitGLD, BitAU (from the periodic table), BIT(insert the word gold here from other languages).  The permutations would be limitless and redundant.  .

At the blockchain level the are an enumeration from 0 to 16.   Only in the user interface is a meaning assigned to these numbers.  Having an abbreviation and verbose name is probably desirable. 

[Bitcoinfan]

Since bytemaster changed the thread topic to "First 32 BitAssets?" does that mean 32 is fine or is this number up to discussion as well?

My choice of stock indices was: One global one and one for every major economy (including BRIC but without Russia).
If 16 BitAssets is the limit I would kick them altogether.

I thought of CHF but economy and population are tiny. Where did you get the #5 rank from?

SEK and HKD I would kick in favour of INR and BRL.  Greater São Paulo and Mumbai each have far more inhabitants than Sweden and Hong Kong combined

Futures on food is a hot topic so I thought of leaving them out for now.

I didn't change the topic, but 32 was the spec from the white paper.  Upon further review I think having fewer per chain is better.

Bytemaster, do you plan to have a Bitasset character limit?  Such as 4 character maximum after the word bit.  eg. BitUSD, BitAAPL.  I feel like limiting to 4 characters will allow for more standardization, reflecting public markets more closely. 

We can see how it can get crazy with BitGoogle, BitGOOG, BitTwitter, BitTWTR, BitGold, BitGLD, BitAU (from the periodic table), BIT(insert the word gold here from other languages).  The permutations would be limitless and redundant.  . 

[bytemaster]

Is that list finalized? Bitshares, bitcoin, gold, silver, oil, I3 stock, and currencies?
Also, what exactly is III good for?

III is good for price discovery on our stock and to demonstrate that even though III stock is not available to the public, it can still be priced as a BitAsset and may be useful if we ever need to sell stock to new investors in the company.  That said, these are not finalized.

[toast]

Is that list finalized? Bitshares, bitcoin, gold, silver, oil, I3 stock, and currencies?
Also, what exactly is III good for?

[bytemaster]

Since bytemaster changed the thread topic to "First 32 BitAssets?" does that mean 32 is fine or is this number up to discussion as well?

My choice of stock indices was: One global one and one for every major economy (including BRIC but without Russia).
If 16 BitAssets is the limit I would kick them altogether.

I thought of CHF but economy and population are tiny. Where did you get the #5 rank from?

SEK and HKD I would kick in favour of INR and BRL.  Greater São Paulo and Mumbai each have far more inhabitants than Sweden and Hong Kong combined

Futures on food is a hot topic so I thought of leaving them out for now.

I didn't change the topic, but 32 was the spec from the white paper.  Upon further review I think having fewer per chain is better. 

[Markus]

Since bytemaster changed the thread topic to "First 32 BitAssets?" does that mean 32 is fine or is this number up to discussion as well?

My choice of stock indices was: One global one and one for every major economy (including BRIC but without Russia).
If 16 BitAssets is the limit I would kick them altogether.

I thought of CHF but economy and population are tiny. Where did you get the #5 rank from?

SEK and HKD I would kick in favour of INR and BRL.  Greater São Paulo and Mumbai each have far more inhabitants than Sweden and Hong Kong combined

Futures on food is a hot topic so I thought of leaving them out for now.

[bytemaster]

https://github.com/InvictusInnovations/BitShares/blob/master/include/bts/blockchain/asset.hpp

Code: [Select]

struct asset
  {
      enum type
      {
          bts      = 0,  // 1 BitShare (smallest storable unit)
          btc      = 1,
          gld      = 2,
          slv      = 3,
          usd      = 4,  // $0.001 = 1 BitUSD
          count, // TODO: move this to the end, for now this will shorten print statements
          cny      = 5,
          gbp      = 6,
          eur      = 7,
          jpy      = 8,  // Japan Yen
          chf      = 9,  // Swiss Frank #5 world currency
          aud      = 10, // Austrialia
          cad      = 11, // Canada
          sek      = 12, // Sweedish Krona
          hkd      = 13, // Hong Kong
          wti      = 14, // Light Sweet Crude Oil
          iii      = 15, // value of 1 of 1 billion shares in Invictus Innovations, Inc
      };
   }

This was my initial list of 16.  I think fewer is better based upon the volume of trades each of these will generate.

[toast]

Currencies:
AUD (Australia)
BDT (Bangladesh)
BRL (Brazil)
CAD (Canada)
CNY (China)
EUR (Europe)
GBP (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland)
IDR (Indonesia)
INR (India)
JPY (Japan)
KRW (South Korea)
MXN (Mexico)
NGN (Nigeria)
PHP (Philippines)
PKR (Pakistan)
RUR (Russia)
USD (United States of America)
VND (Vietnam)

18 seems like too many, I think 10-15 would be better. We ought to have more than 4 commodities IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Most_traded_currencies

Stock Indices
Global (MSCI World)
China (SSE Composite Index)
India (BSE)
Europe (Eurostoxx 50)
USA (DJIA)
Indonesia (IHSG)
Brasil (Ibovespa)

These seem somewhat arbitrary, but I don't know much about stock indices.

Commodities
Copper
Gold
Silver
Crude Oil

Drop copper, add iron / steel?
Add corn/wheat?

[Markus]

3) BitAssets are defined in the genesis block as a critical part of the consensus forming process.  Every 'market' requires custom tracking by all nodes and therefore BitAssets are not dynamic.   However, if you want to create a new kind of BitAsset all you need to do is launch a new blockchain for that asset, potentially paired with a couple of other related BitAssets.

Does this mean this new blockchain is totally independent of the original BitShares? This would mean the value of the new blockchain's BitShares is free floating and not linked to the original. Is there any way to link both chains so to inherit the trust brought forward towards the original BitShares?

Is there a discussion about what the 32 "original" assets will be?

I haven't seen it anywhere. I might just start it here:

Suggest focusing on fiat (largest economies and most populous countries) with a small amount of crypto, commodities and stock indices. No company stocks as these are too specialised and tend to be ephemeral.

Currencies:
AUD (Australia)
BDT (Bangladesh)
BRL (Brazil)
CAD (Canada)
CNY (China)
EUR (Europe)
GBP (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland)
IDR (Indonesia)
INR (India)
JPY (Japan)
KRW (South Korea)
MXN (Mexico)
NGN (Nigeria)
PHP (Philippines)
PKR (Pakistan)
RUR (Russia)
USD (United States of America)
VND (Vietnam)

Crypto
Bitcoin
Litecoin
Peercoin

Stock Indices
Global (MSCI World)
China (SSE Composite Index)
India (BSE)
Europe (Eurostoxx 50)
USA (DJIA)
Indonesia (IHSG)
Brasil (Ibovespa)

Commodities
Copper
Gold
Silver
Crude Oil

[toast]

3) BitAssets are defined in the genesis block as a critical part of the consensus forming process.  Every 'market' requires custom tracking by all nodes and therefore BitAssets are not dynamic.   However, if you want to create a new kind of BitAsset all you need to do is launch a new blockchain for that asset, potentially paired with a couple of other related BitAssets.

Is there a discussion about what the 32 "original" assets will be?

[bytemaster]

Where do the first BitUSD come from? If they are "loaned into existence" by someone giving 2 BTS in exchange for 1 BTS worth of BitUSD, what initial exchange rate is used?

I understand that longs and shorts start making bids and asks for BitUSD and as soon as they overlap the first BitUSD are created at this exchange rate.

Some more questions I have:

• What rate is used if the bid is higher than the ask? Do bids and asks have timestamps as on most exchanges and the older one determines the trade price? What when these overlapping bids/asks first appear in the same block?
  
  
• Will the short positions be tradable? If yes, how will they be made fungible?
  
  
• I'd also like to know who determines which BitAssets will exist. What do I have to do if I want to create a new one, e.g., BitISK?

1)  I believe that the algorithm I will use will always give people the rate they ask for never, more, never less.  Any difference between the bid & ask prices will go toward dividends for the shareholders.   This is a mechanism to limit attempts at gaming the system and forcing people to bid the price they want. 

2) Short positions are nothing more than an output of BTS that can only be spent by destroying BitUSD or transferred to a new output with the same terms.  There is really no benefit for trading a short position.

3) BitAssets are defined in the genesis block as a critical part of the consensus forming process.  Every 'market' requires custom tracking by all nodes and therefore BitAssets are not dynamic.   However, if you want to create a new kind of BitAsset all you need to do is launch a new blockchain for that asset, potentially paired with a couple of other related BitAssets.   

[Markus]

Where do the first BitUSD come from? If they are "loaned into existence" by someone giving 2 BTS in exchange for 1 BTS worth of BitUSD, what initial exchange rate is used?

I understand that longs and shorts start making bids and asks for BitUSD and as soon as they overlap the first BitUSD are created at this exchange rate.

Some more questions I have:

• What rate is used if the bid is higher than the ask? Do bids and asks have timestamps as on most exchanges and the older one determines the trade price? What when these overlapping bids/asks first appear in the same block?
  
  
• Will the short positions be tradable? If yes, how will they be made fungible?
  
  
• I'd also like to know who determines which BitAssets will exist. What do I have to do if I want to create a new one, e.g., BitISK?

[toast]

Where do the first BitUSD come from? If they are "loaned into existence" by someone giving 2 BTS in exchange for 1 BTS worth of BitUSD, what initial exchange rate is used? Also, how are the 32 BitAssets in the chain determined (for example, what are going to be the 32 assets in the "root" chain?) Is there even a root chain, or is it just that the original one will have more universal assets like gold, usd, etc? How is this decided?

I'm trying to make sense of the whitepaper but it's a lot to wrap your head around at once.