Author Topic: Please stop changing the rules of the game  (Read 18015 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Troglodactyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 960
    • View Profile
Please try to make just one damn thing work (commercially speaking) before screwing it off to go and make something else.

You don't like how things are going. This is why we have Voting.

Indeed.  Which is why top priority should be getting BitShares to the point at which it is independent with an effective and user friendly voting system to generate consensus on how it needs to adapt.  Bytemaster has indicated that he's all in favor of BitShares outgrowing its dependence on him, so it just remains to see whether he follows through on that.  If he does, I think it may become unstoppable, but if he cripples it with IP/licensing nonsense then who knows.

Offline konelectric

Please try to make just one damn thing work (commercially speaking) before screwing it off to go and make something else.

You don't like how things are going. This is why we have Voting.
Tweeter: Konelectric. Steemit: Konelectric. Youtube: Patrick Konshak. Success Council: Yourship. Mumble: Yourship or Konelectric.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan

Yes, progress is good.  Yes, change is tough.  But completely changing the monetary incentive to use a system to a new one that does not favor new investment is a scary proposition.


what changed? 20% goes to BTS if you are referring to the identabit sharedrop

The 20% is a lie.  Its only 10%, of final supply.  They are doing 20% of initial distribution but only 10% in reality, to make it look better.


Any comment on this Stan?

The complete distribution table has been there for all to see from the beginning, so the fact that ordinary BitShares holders get 20% of the initial supply has been plain from Day 1.  Hard to find a lie in there.

I have already explained the logic a week ago...

Question mentioned on Mumble that didn't get answered:

Paraphrasing..."Don't chains that sharedrop 20% and then dilute violate the Social Consensus?"

Answer:  No violation.  After you get your full 20% then you have to decide whether to cash it out or let it ride.

If you let it ride you are freely deciding that your are OK with the expected growth vs. the expected dilution.
So what happens after genesis is in your control, and you shouldn't expect a developer to take that into account for you.

In the case of Identabit's Proof of Appreciation guarantees that no dilution will occur at all for a while until the algorithm has validated that offsetting appreciation has occurred.

So the worry about what the supply will be at some distant point in the future is unknowable and moot. 

You start out sharing 20% and have plenty of time to decide your own fate (and opt out if you want) before any change in the supply ever happens.

As for attempts to compare Brownies to BTS based on somebody's subjective evaluation of relative asset value, that's not how sharedrop theory works.  Brownies are just a weighted list of appreciated active contributors that BM maintains for his own purposes.  Its value is a function of the likelihood that being on that list will be somehow a Good Thing.  BM has explicitly made no such promises to that effect.

BTS holders and Brownie holders were simply two different demographics that John Underwood wanted to honor.  Surely you can understand why he would want to get active contributing members to be especially enthusiastic about his new project. 

To win this argument you would need to convince John that taking the shares he wants to hand out as a gift to active ecosystem players away from them and instead giving them to less active members would add value to BitShares or Identabit.


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit
My own opinion is flexibility is most important under conditions of uncertainty. You need the ability to make quick changes as you learn about the environment.

Bitshares is an experiment, whether it's 1.0 or 2.0. There have been several controversial decisions such as the merger, or even AGS. The simple fact is that Bytemaster doesn't owe us anything and Cryptonomex is their company. The Brownie Points apply to what Bytemaster and their team are doing.

But why complain about it? If you think there should be new rules, issue a token, and start a new game. There is no reason to believe only one game can be played at a time and that we can't play multiple games in parallel. We also don't want to be like Bitcoin where we can't change the rules and become obsolete.

My suggestion, transition into a gift economy. Let Bytemaster be the leader who makes the first move with Brownie Points, but there is no rule which says there can only be Brownie Points, or that developers can only sharedrop on Brownie Points exclusively. This means you can get Bytemaster's development support by sharedropping on his people, but you can also sharedrop on your own people or on any tokens you want.

If Bytemaster is the man who brought the Identabit deal together, then on the basis of him setting the deal up he has a lot of influence over it and can have Brownie Points. There are plenty of other deals which can be set up in the future and if you set a deal up you can have the sharedrop in whatever pattern you think would be best.

Compared to how the Bitcoin community is, I don't see what there is to complain about. Most people here probably will make money regardless of Brownie Points.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 12:21:32 am by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit

Yes, progress is good.  Yes, change is tough.  But completely changing the monetary incentive to use a system to a new one that does not favor new investment is a scary proposition.


what changed? 20% goes to BTS if you are referring to the identabit sharedrop

The 20% is a lie.  Its only 10%, of final supply.  They are doing 20% of initial distribution but only 10% in reality, to make it look better.


Any comment on this Stan?

In my mind it only half meets the social consensus by being 10% of final supply.  If you also hold brownies at least in proportion to your BTS stake then you are fine and get your 20%.  However, everyone out there without brownies is missing out.

I believe that this is the cause of the most recent BTS decline.  The price was at .033 and rising when this news came out, and its been nonstop downward spiral since.  Everyone who was buying BTS as a sharedrop target just realized that they get only half what they expected because half the sharedrops are being throw at brownie now, and so they bailed.

The Brownie allocation is actually 20% of initial supply being awarded to Bytemaster.

It is completely under his control and as was stated when the sharedrop was announced...

Note brownies are subject to dilution at will and supplies can change.

- 10% of the IDentabit supply goes to the originators and Stan & Dan are 2 of the 4 originators.
- 10% of the IDentabit supply goes to the IDentabit developers and presumably BM is the largest recipient in that group.
- 20% goes to BTS of which BM is hopefully the largest holder.

I think that's fine but between CNX which owns Graphene and IDentabit, BTS is the project they may have the least incentive to make a long term success. 

I'm currently holding a lot of BTS and have held much more in the past, but I'm certainly on my toes about whether it's the right thing to be doing.

 +5%

Hedge appropriately then.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3506
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Ander

Yes that wild hypothetical situation would not meet the social consesus.  Now imagine another hypothetical.  New coin launches gives 20% of initial supply to bts, and then slowly mines until a cap of 200% of initial supply is met over several years.  Which of these is closest to reality?  Would you really still insist on 40% of initial supply?


Maybe I wouldnt insist on 40%, but I would recognize the economic truth that the 20% initial/10% final sharedrop that was being given to BTS in that case is adding a lot less value to BTS than it would if it were 20% of final supply.


When the Identabit announcement mentioned '40% to BTS community', some investors probably thought that actually meant 40% to BTS.  But this was clearly a bait and switch, because the reality is that common BTS holders actually get only 10% of the true supply.  Brownie holders get another 10% of the final supply. 
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline puppies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1659
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: puppies
It's so dumb that anyone would value brownie points the same as bts when it gets an equal 20%.  There is little distinction in free market value.  But that's exactly what happened.  Dev team is devaluing bitshares with the introduction of brownie points because by that deal, brownie points are worth more right now.  Brownie points goes up in value and bitshares goes down.

This is not a zero sum game.  There is no reason to believe that identabit would have would have given a 40% stake to to bts instead of 20% if brownies did not exist.  They have the right to disperse their digital tokens as they see fit.


Yes, progress is good.  Yes, change is tough.  But completely changing the monetary incentive to use a system to a new one that does not favor new investment is a scary proposition.


what changed? 20% goes to BTS if you are referring to the identabit sharedrop

The 20% is a lie.  Its only 10%, of final supply.  They are doing 20% of initial distribution but only 10% in reality, to make it look better.


Any comment on this Stan?

They claimed that it still meets the social consensus if its 20% of initial supply.

However, if someone were to create a coin with an initial supply of like, 100 coins, giving 20 of the 100 coins to BTS holders, and then a final supply of 100 billion coins, with 99.99999 billion of those coins created through mining, dev bonuses, or whatever, then it becomes incredibly clear that that does NOT actually meet the social consensus.

In my mind it only half meets the social consensus by being 10% of final supply.  If you also hold brownies at least in proportion to your BTS stake then you are fine and get your 20%.  However, everyone out there without brownies is missing out.

I believe that this is the cause of the most recent BTS decline.  The price was at .033 and rising when this news came out, and its been nonstop downward spiral since.  Everyone who was buying BTS as a sharedrop target just realized that they get only half what they expected because half the sharedrops are being throw at brownie now, and so they bailed.

Yes that wild hypothetical situation would not meet the social consesus.  Now imagine another hypothetical.  New coin launches gives 20% of initial supply to bts, and then slowly mines until a cap of 200% of initial supply is met over several years.  Which of these is closest to reality?  Would you really still insist on 40% of initial supply?

I just noticed that Brownie points are now a sharedrop target and might be given other benefits. This is not really a big deal on its own, but it points to something which I think is very important. Every other week the rules of the game change around here, or perhaps to put it more accurately the nature of the value proposition changes. It has been happening constantly, and it is very annoying and off-putting.

You can't build a castle on shifting sands.

If Bitshares wants to draw people in and get people involved and encourage people to build on it, then the one single most important thing those people need is to have some confidence that they won't have the rug pulled out from under their feet by the powers that be.

Personally I would have no confidence in building anything to do with Bitshares, because by the time it was completed things would have changed so much it would probably be unprofitable or impossible.

Please try to make just one damn thing work (commercially speaking) before screwing it off to go and make something else.



You have a really good point.  Innovation is great, but the community needs stability in order to be able to build atop bitshares.  I am hoping that 2.0 and committee members will give us that stability.  I totally understand if people have lost faith with all the changes to date though.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Empirical1.2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
    • View Profile

Yes, progress is good.  Yes, change is tough.  But completely changing the monetary incentive to use a system to a new one that does not favor new investment is a scary proposition.


what changed? 20% goes to BTS if you are referring to the identabit sharedrop

The 20% is a lie.  Its only 10%, of final supply.  They are doing 20% of initial distribution but only 10% in reality, to make it look better.


Any comment on this Stan?

In my mind it only half meets the social consensus by being 10% of final supply.  If you also hold brownies at least in proportion to your BTS stake then you are fine and get your 20%.  However, everyone out there without brownies is missing out.

I believe that this is the cause of the most recent BTS decline.  The price was at .033 and rising when this news came out, and its been nonstop downward spiral since.  Everyone who was buying BTS as a sharedrop target just realized that they get only half what they expected because half the sharedrops are being throw at brownie now, and so they bailed.

The Brownie allocation is actually 20% of initial supply being awarded to Bytemaster.

It is completely under his control and as was stated when the sharedrop was announced...

Note brownies are subject to dilution at will and supplies can change.

- 10% of the IDentabit supply goes to the originators and Stan & Dan are 2 of the 4 originators.
- 10% of the IDentabit supply goes to the IDentabit developers and presumably BM is the largest recipient in that group.
- 20% goes to BTS of which BM is hopefully the largest holder.

I think that's fine but between CNX which owns Graphene and IDentabit, BTS is the project they may have the least incentive to make a long term success. 

I'm currently holding a lot of BTS and have held much more in the past, but I'm certainly on my toes about whether it's the right thing to be doing.

If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline topcandle

It's so dumb that anyone would value brownie points the same as bts when it gets an equal 20%.  There is little distinction in free market value.  But that's exactly what happened.  Dev team is devaluing bitshares with the introduction of brownie points because by that deal, brownie points are worth more right now.  Brownie points goes up in value and bitshares goes down. 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 10:45:51 pm by topcandle »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline speedy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: speedy
I understand where profitofthegods is coming from. Having patience and holding BitShares through all these bottomless cliff losses is already painful enough, now we have speculate on a new token that was spawned out of the air because the value of our BTS holdings (as a sharedrop target) is getting further diluted.

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3506
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Ander

Yes, progress is good.  Yes, change is tough.  But completely changing the monetary incentive to use a system to a new one that does not favor new investment is a scary proposition.


what changed? 20% goes to BTS if you are referring to the identabit sharedrop

The 20% is a lie.  Its only 10%, of final supply.  They are doing 20% of initial distribution but only 10% in reality, to make it look better.


Any comment on this Stan?

They claimed that it still meets the social consensus if its 20% of initial supply.

However, if someone were to create a coin with an initial supply of like, 100 coins, giving 20 of the 100 coins to BTS holders, and then a final supply of 100 billion coins, with 99.99999 billion of those coins created through mining, dev bonuses, or whatever, then it becomes incredibly clear that that does NOT actually meet the social consensus.

In my mind it only half meets the social consensus by being 10% of final supply.  If you also hold brownies at least in proportion to your BTS stake then you are fine and get your 20%.  However, everyone out there without brownies is missing out.

I believe that this is the cause of the most recent BTS decline.  The price was at .033 and rising when this news came out, and its been nonstop downward spiral since.  Everyone who was buying BTS as a sharedrop target just realized that they get only half what they expected because half the sharedrops are being throw at brownie now, and so they bailed.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline DMo09

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
I just noticed that Brownie points are now a sharedrop target and might be given other benefits. This is not really a big deal on its own, but it points to something which I think is very important. Every other week the rules of the game change around here, or perhaps to put it more accurately the nature of the value proposition changes. It has been happening constantly, and it is very annoying and off-putting.

You can't build a castle on shifting sands.

If Bitshares wants to draw people in and get people involved and encourage people to build on it, then the one single most important thing those people need is to have some confidence that they won't have the rug pulled out from under their feet by the powers that be.

Personally I would have no confidence in building anything to do with Bitshares, because by the time it was completed things would have changed so much it would probably be unprofitable or impossible.

Please try to make just one damn thing work (commercially speaking) before screwing it off to go and make something else.



Bts is an entrepreneurial venture of unprecedented kind.  I completely understand why there is evolving change as things unfold.  It's not like we're funding a lemonade stand.  We're writing history.

Yes, it has been frustrating in the short-term.  But this is a marathon through uncharted territory.  And I have only seen proof that the Bts team will work as long and hard as it takes to make this project a success.   

Brownie Points:  I have zero, but understand that the people working proactively deserve a “token” of appreciation.  This token is now a share-drop target.  I am not surprised, nor am I complaining. 

There is more than one reason to join Bts.  I joined is because this group is more technically and philosophically advanced than any other. 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 09:44:32 pm by DMo09 »

Offline lakerta06


Yes, progress is good.  Yes, change is tough.  But completely changing the monetary incentive to use a system to a new one that does not favor new investment is a scary proposition.


what changed? 20% goes to BTS if you are referring to the identabit sharedrop

The 20% is a lie.  Its only 10%, of final supply.  They are doing 20% of initial distribution but only 10% in reality, to make it look better.


Any comment on this Stan?

Offline EstefanTT

Identabit wanted to sharedrop in two ways ; bts and valued members.

They chose brownies points because they are a good way to accomplish that. If BM wouldn't have created them, they would have sharedrop on who has the more threads or comments on this forum or ask for a list of members attending hangouts or something else. Brownies points are a much better way to accomplish that than these other solutions.

BitShares didn't change a bit when BM issued his brownies points, it just became a more innovative and stimulating environment ... if that's even possible !
Bit20, the cryptocurrency index fund http://www.bittwenty.com
(BitShares French ConneXion - www.bitsharesfcx.com)

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3506
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Ander

Yes, progress is good.  Yes, change is tough.  But completely changing the monetary incentive to use a system to a new one that does not favor new investment is a scary proposition.


what changed? 20% goes to BTS if you are referring to the identabit sharedrop

The 20% is a lie.  Its only 10%, of final supply.  They are doing 20% of initial distribution but only 10% in reality, to make it look better.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads