Author Topic: Please stop changing the rules of the game  (Read 8283 times)

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Offline Ben Mason

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2015, 11:20:53 am »
Identabit is using Graphene for their chain. They owe BTS nothing. They made an arrangement with a group of private devs called CNX to do so. These devs also owe BTS nothing. CNX chose to give BTS Graphene. Identabit chose to sharedrop. They didn't have to. Just like CNX didn't have to give BTS Graphene. Perhaps we should try to accept this new paradigm. It's my opinion that we as a community sound like whiny children right now. We do not own these devs or other chains that choose to sharedrop.


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Directly to the point. Well said. Let's get this sharing/gift economy off the ground! Let's incentivise everyone to give to each other and join the Bitshares network effect!

Offline xeroc

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2015, 12:08:00 pm »
Identabit is using Graphene for their chain. They owe BTS nothing. They made an arrangement with a group of private devs called CNX to do so. These devs also owe BTS nothing. CNX chose to give BTS Graphene. Identabit chose to sharedrop. They didn't have to. Just like CNX didn't have to give BTS Graphene. Perhaps we should try to accept this new paradigm. It's my opinion that we as a community sound like whiny children right now. We do not own these devs or other chains that choose to sharedrop.
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That's a healthy attitude. All this "you-owe-me-something" culture is producing is disappointment.
+1

Well said!
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Offline liondani

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2015, 12:33:15 pm »
That's a healthy attitude. All this "you-owe-me-something" culture is producing  disappointment.

The only thing that produce disappointment* is the BTS price drop (specially for the early investors)...
If the price would be climbing all these months I would "give a shit"  for the ... "you-owe-me-something" culture.


PS     and the suspicion that on these price levels the pressure could be very likely  the result of traders that have...  inside informations!
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Offline brainbug

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2015, 12:53:55 pm »
Don't forget, several people "continuously" have to sell BTS to fund daily living, etc.

Offline pgbit

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2015, 12:59:06 pm »
Where's the summary of brownie points sharedrop? Missed the details...

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2015, 01:07:39 pm »
Identabit is using Graphene for their chain. They owe BTS nothing. They made an arrangement with a group of private devs called CNX to do so. These devs also owe BTS nothing. CNX chose to give BTS Graphene. Identabit chose to sharedrop. They didn't have to. Just like CNX didn't have to give BTS Graphene. Perhaps we should try to accept this new paradigm. It's my opinion that we as a community sound like whiny children right now. We do not own these devs or other chains that choose to sharedrop.


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I concur.. this share drop expectations stuff is just nuts. These attitudes have likely cost everyone 99% of any future prospects of any kind of sharedrops that may have come.

Try going to a bank and telling them that you are entitled to their stocks because you had kept $50 in deposits in their bank the year before. Watch how fast you get taken out by security throwing the same kind of hissy fits we see on here.

They need to go build something for themselves and see how it is when the shoe is on the other foot and the mob screams to suck on your teet.

+5%
Identabit is using Graphene for their chain. They owe BTS nothing. They made an arrangement with a group of private devs called CNX to do so. These devs also owe BTS nothing. CNX chose to give BTS Graphene. Identabit chose to sharedrop. They didn't have to. Just like CNX didn't have to give BTS Graphene. Perhaps we should try to accept this new paradigm. It's my opinion that we as a community sound like whiny children right now. We do not own these devs or other chains that choose to sharedrop.
+5%
That's a healthy attitude. All this "you-owe-me-something" culture is producing is disappointment.
+1

Well said!
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2015, 02:42:43 pm »
Identabit is using Graphene for their chain. They owe BTS nothing. They made an arrangement with a group of private devs called CNX to do so. These devs also owe BTS nothing. CNX chose to give BTS Graphene. Identabit chose to sharedrop. They didn't have to. Just like CNX didn't have to give BTS Graphene. Perhaps we should try to accept this new paradigm. It's my opinion that we as a community sound like whiny children right now. We do not own these devs or other chains that choose to sharedrop.


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That's absolutely correct. The question investors are trying to answer though is what is BTS worth then?

I've previously described BTS as

Imagine if the founder of Microsoft left when it was still a struggling start-up, taking all the talent with him to form another company and then told Microsoft shareholders that they would now only receive a free windows license and if they wanted any further work done by Bill Gates or the talent that they would have to pay market rates. How much would Microsoft be worth in that scenario?

(Especially if Microsoft couldn't afford to pay market rates because it was still a struggling start-up and also paying off an expensive merger from just 9 months prior that it had largely engaged in to retain it's founder.)

If BTS has run out of money & the founder and talent of BTS have formed another company and will only work post BTS 2.0 for market rates. It seems like now BTS's main claim to fame is a free windows license (Graphene)

Nobody owes it/you/me anything it's just a question for serious investors of determining why they should put their hard earned money into BTS at this point.

For me the answer is that it's a punt that BitAssets 2.0, the good partnerships and the referral system are going to combine to rapidly gain traction and if they don't, it's curtains. So very speculative at this point.

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Offline betax

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2015, 10:27:21 am »
Identabit is using Graphene for their chain. They owe BTS nothing. They made an arrangement with a group of private devs called CNX to do so. These devs also owe BTS nothing. CNX chose to give BTS Graphene. Identabit chose to sharedrop. They didn't have to. Just like CNX didn't have to give BTS Graphene. Perhaps we should try to accept this new paradigm. It's my opinion that we as a community sound like whiny children right now. We do not own these devs or other chains that choose to sharedrop.


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That's absolutely correct. The question investors are trying to answer though is what is BTS worth then?

I've previously described BTS as

Imagine if the founder of Microsoft left when it was still a struggling start-up, taking all the talent with him to form another company and then told Microsoft shareholders that they would now only receive a free windows license and if they wanted any further work done by Bill Gates or the talent that they would have to pay market rates. How much would Microsoft be worth in that scenario?

(Especially if Microsoft couldn't afford to pay market rates because it was still a struggling start-up and also paying off an expensive merger from just 9 months prior that it had largely engaged in to retain it's founder.)

If BTS has run out of money & the founder and talent of BTS have formed another company and will only work post BTS 2.0 for market rates. It seems like now BTS's main claim to fame is a free windows license (Graphene)

Nobody owes it/you/me anything it's just a question for serious investors of determining why they should put their hard earned money into BTS at this point.

For me the answer is that it's a punt that BitAssets 2.0, the good partnerships and the referral system are going to combine to rapidly gain traction and if they don't, it's curtains. So very speculative at this point.

Windows was not open sourced,  Bitshares is. I think the new licencing stops the likes of IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, or just an start up etc to come here, create a fork, deploy it internally and thanks everyone for giving me this free product. Bitshares can now longer live and developers can be sure that nobody will come up with a competing chain using the same code, hence removing their only way of living and passion.

They will make millions with this, excellent. Good for them.

Newcomers can get cheaper BTS than we did, well thanks for the Brownie points the active community will get some shares. I believe that is has been impossible to be active in the past few months before the 2.0 announcement as the ones in the know could not say anything, and the ones that did not know, there was not opportunity to help. (It makes me wonder why I was testing in DevShares for a while.)

They could not have told everyone that they were working on a better product, it will have been admitting failure on the first one (even if for me works..)

What I want to see is a new bitshares toolkit, with a licensing that is clear and you can pitch to the likes of IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, or just an start up.
For example 20% minimum to BTS, what is considered a competing chain and what is not. Examples of how to extend the toolkit etc. If it cannot be a new chain, but a valid addition to the chain by creating a hard fork, how you ensure revenue for the new company.

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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2015, 10:41:03 am »
Identabit is using Graphene for their chain. They owe BTS nothing. They made an arrangement with a group of private devs called CNX to do so. These devs also owe BTS nothing. CNX chose to give BTS Graphene. Identabit chose to sharedrop. They didn't have to. Just like CNX didn't have to give BTS Graphene. Perhaps we should try to accept this new paradigm. It's my opinion that we as a community sound like whiny children right now. We do not own these devs or other chains that choose to sharedrop.


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That's absolutely correct. The question investors are trying to answer though is what is BTS worth then?

I've previously described BTS as

Imagine if the founder of Microsoft left when it was still a struggling start-up, taking all the talent with him to form another company and then told Microsoft shareholders that they would now only receive a free windows license and if they wanted any further work done by Bill Gates or the talent that they would have to pay market rates. How much would Microsoft be worth in that scenario?

(Especially if Microsoft couldn't afford to pay market rates because it was still a struggling start-up and also paying off an expensive merger from just 9 months prior that it had largely engaged in to retain it's founder.)

If BTS has run out of money & the founder and talent of BTS have formed another company and will only work post BTS 2.0 for market rates. It seems like now BTS's main claim to fame is a free windows license (Graphene)

Nobody owes it/you/me anything it's just a question for serious investors of determining why they should put their hard earned money into BTS at this point.

For me the answer is that it's a punt that BitAssets 2.0, the good partnerships and the referral system are going to combine to rapidly gain traction and if they don't, it's curtains. So very speculative at this point.

Windows was not open sourced,  Bitshares is. I think the new licencing stops the likes of IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, or just an start up etc to come here, create a fork, deploy it internally and thanks everyone for giving me this free product. Bitshares can now longer live and developers can be sure that nobody will come up with a competing chain using the same code, hence removing their only way of living and passion.

They will make millions with this, excellent. Good for them.

Newcomers can get cheaper BTS than we did, well thanks for the Brownie points the active community will get some shares. I believe that is has been impossible to be active in the past few months before the 2.0 announcement as the ones in the know could not say anything, and the ones that did not know, there was not opportunity to help. (It makes me wonder why I was testing in DevShares for a while.)

They could not have told everyone that they were working on a better product, it will have been admitting failure on the first one (even if for me works..)

What I want to see is a new bitshares toolkit, with a licensing that is clear and you can pitch to the likes of IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, or just an start up.
For example 20% minimum to BTS, what is considered a competing chain and what is not. Examples of how to extend the toolkit etc. If it cannot be a new chain, but a valid addition to the chain by creating a hard fork, how you ensure revenue for the new company.

- Yeah, I hope they make millions, they've put in a lot of work these last few years.

- I'm not personally a fan of the Brownies for a few reasons I've already discussed.

- I'm not sure there's any new BitShares toolkit? The toolkit BTS will be using is Graphene owned by CNX & if they want to sell it to start-ups or large companies I don't think BTS is guaranteed a piece of it?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:58:56 am by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline betax

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2015, 11:13:31 am »
- I'm not sure there's any new BitShares toolkit? The toolkit BTS will be using is Graphene owned by CNX & if they want to sell it to start-ups or large companies I don't think BTS is guaranteed a piece of it?

I think that was originally one of the appeals of BitShares - that you would get a piece of lot of different DAC's. In a way Ethereum has picked up that mantle because they aim to make building Dapps easy and so as a holder of Ether you may get some value out of any Dapp that is built on it that ends up being successful even if 99/100 are duds.

So far, they seem to be "imposing"  the social consensus, but ideally it should be confirmed. A clear license would allow them to be marketed at higher levels, like Ethereum.

On your other Ethereum point, I totally agree with you, hence my other posts about a simple api / development for businesses / developers to built on top, together with the toolkit.  They can have the same model as Facebook / or other cloud provider, with a bigger incentive which are the referrals.

Regarding share dropping, BTS should benefit always. First they are the root (after the merger) for all the initial investors (AGS, PTS, BTSX, DNS, etc), we all can disagree on Follow my vote but we might get a surprise in one of the announcements.

Second if it does not happen, they will be root for evil FUD, (with reasoning) like Microsoft/
Third BTS (in general) avoids overall centralisation.


Brownie points should be make more clear, at least the how many are going to be distributed. The total supply, etc. This will avoid creating a market were people might end up upset.
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Offline toast

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2015, 12:12:34 pm »
Please try to make just one damn thing work (commercially speaking) before screwing it off to go and make something else.

You don't like how things are going. This is why we have Voting.

Indeed.  Which is why top priority should be getting BitShares to the point at which it is independent with an effective and user friendly voting system to generate consensus on how it needs to adapt.  Bytemaster has indicated that he's all in favor of BitShares outgrowing its dependence on him, so it just remains to see whether he follows through on that.  If he does, I think it may become unstoppable, but if he cripples it with IP/licensing nonsense then who knows.

BM has literally said "if we vote on X then they won't vote right"...
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Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2015, 12:52:40 pm »
Please try to make just one damn thing work (commercially speaking) before screwing it off to go and make something else.

You don't like how things are going. This is why we have Voting.

Indeed.  Which is why top priority should be getting BitShares to the point at which it is independent with an effective and user friendly voting system to generate consensus on how it needs to adapt.  Bytemaster has indicated that he's all in favor of BitShares outgrowing its dependence on him, so it just remains to see whether he follows through on that.  If he does, I think it may become unstoppable, but if he cripples it with IP/licensing nonsense then who knows.

BM has literally said "if we vote on X then they won't vote right"...

I must have missed that, but that sort of inconsistency would be another good reason to prioritize independence from his (and any other individual's) authority.  I have a lot of respect for BM for how far he's gotten this project, but way too many people around here have been treating him like a god for way too long, and I don't think that's been healthy for him.  He's way better at R&D than he is at leadership and follow through.

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2015, 12:54:31 pm »
It's so dumb that anyone would value brownie points the same as bts when it gets an equal 20%.  There is little distinction in free market value.  But that's exactly what happened.  Dev team is devaluing bitshares with the introduction of brownie points because by that deal, brownie points are worth more right now.  Brownie points goes up in value and bitshares goes down.

This is not a zero sum game.  There is no reason to believe that identabit would have would have given a 40% stake to to bts instead of 20% if brownies did not exist.  They have the right to disperse their digital tokens as they see fit.


I think they would've, especially as it would've meant that they were following the social consensus without any controversy.

Like it or not, Brownie was another wrong step (for us, might be good for BM and CNX). My first post in that thread (on Page 3 IIRC) was pointing out the concern, while all around everyone was busy posting their addresses.

We reap what we sow.

Offline nomoreheroes7

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Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2015, 01:14:05 pm »
It's so dumb that anyone would value brownie points the same as bts when it gets an equal 20%.  There is little distinction in free market value.  But that's exactly what happened.  Dev team is devaluing bitshares with the introduction of brownie points because by that deal, brownie points are worth more right now.  Brownie points goes up in value and bitshares goes down.

This is not a zero sum game.  There is no reason to believe that identabit would have would have given a 40% stake to to bts instead of 20% if brownies did not exist.  They have the right to disperse their digital tokens as they see fit.


I think they would've, especially as it would've meant that they were following the social consensus without any controversy.

Like it or not, Brownie was another wrong step (for us, might be good for BM and CNX). My first post in that thread (on Page 3 IIRC) was pointing out the concern, while all around everyone was busy posting their addresses.

We reap what we sow.

I have to agree with sumantso on this. After the whole AGS/PTS merger fiasco it's mind-boggling to think that we'd be walking this path again, yet here we are. Brownies are just another point of controversy that shouldn't be.

Offline Thom

Re: Please stop changing the rules of the game
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2015, 02:24:24 pm »
The only possible reason for controversy regarding brownie points is in how identibit is using them as a sharedrop target.

BM has emphatically stated on several occasions that his intention for brownies was to keep track of those who do work of value to make BitShares a success, nothing more. It is his personal scale of recognition. Please ground yourself in that fact.

Enter identibit and it's choice to sharedrop as a reward to those that help make it possible for identibit to exist in the first place. We can only speculate as to what role CNX played in influencing the use of brownies in the identibit deal. If it was completely and totally the brainchild and will of John Underwood without any CNX influence then any controversy lies solely on his shoulders. Let the whiners go take up their beef with identibit not CNX. However IMO the "whiners" don't really have a legitimate, rational reason for complaining (see below for more on that)

On the other hand, if CNX in any way contributed to the idea that brownies might serve identibit or they might be instrumental in making the identibit deal happen (i.e. without brownies being suggested by CNX and involved in the deal Underwood might not have closed the deal), then that is another story. If that happened it changes the nature brownies to not only a measure of valued contributors in the eyes of BM to a UIA with broader implications, especially if you want them as an investment vehicle (looking for financial ROI) rather than primarily as a measure of reputation and respect in the BitShares community.

If the later occurred then BM / CNX did indeed decide to "change the rules of the game" by changing the nature of brownies, and in that case there is a basis for complaint.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 02:31:05 pm by Thom »
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