Beyond Bitcoin (MKR) Hangout w/ Rune & Friends Tomorrow @ 11:30AM EST

[fuzzy]

MKR is just one of the many types of collateral that are going to back the Dai (and it will be a minor part of it since the debt ceiling will be very low). The vast majority of Dai are going to be backed by major assets like BTC, ETH, gold (through Digixglobal) and whatever else there is demand by traders to margin trade with. If the MKR price is falling it just means nobody is gonna do leveraged longs with MKR, that's perfectly fine as long as there's some other asset people want to margin trade (as mentioned before the interest rate for borrowing USD for BTC margin trade currently sits at around 20% APR, meaning there is an abundance of demand)

Also there is no "insurance fund". The market cap of MKR is the insurance fund, and the money for black swan event bailouts comes from forced MKR inflation. The Maker vault is more of a checking account that all cash flow passes through, and money that doesnt go to operational expenses are funnelled to the MKR holders through buy & burn

Do not get me wrong - I find the possibility of using multiple asset for backing up the stable coin, super, super cool! [although I am not sure how you will achieve true movement of BTC to the ETH blockchain, at least anytime soon]. And while having multiple backing assets reduces the chance of black swan event even more it does not make this chance = 0 ! And in this highly unlikely scenario, as you said it - "money for black swan event bailouts comes from forced MKR inflation. "

I don't know when you sat back and reflected tony but I am glad you did.  This is SO MUCH MORE PRODUCTIVE an approach to acknowledge concerns. 

[sudo]

still not  get MKRCOIN  @rune   

bts:ags   forum:sudo  mumble:jerry

We'll be handing out sharedrops of 30 MKR per person (who confirms via voice or through recognizable forum name they are a real/unique person).

[tonyk]

MKR is just one of the many types of collateral that are going to back the Dai (and it will be a minor part of it since the debt ceiling will be very low). The vast majority of Dai are going to be backed by major assets like BTC, ETH, gold (through Digixglobal) and whatever else there is demand by traders to margin trade with. If the MKR price is falling it just means nobody is gonna do leveraged longs with MKR, that's perfectly fine as long as there's some other asset people want to margin trade (as mentioned before the interest rate for borrowing USD for BTC margin trade currently sits at around 20% APR, meaning there is an abundance of demand)

Also there is no "insurance fund". The market cap of MKR is the insurance fund, and the money for black swan event bailouts comes from forced MKR inflation. The Maker vault is more of a checking account that all cash flow passes through, and money that doesnt go to operational expenses are funnelled to the MKR holders through buy & burn

Do not get me wrong - I find the possibility of using multiple asset for backing up the stable coin, super, super cool! [although I am not sure how you will achieve true movement of BTC to the ETH blockchain, at least anytime soon]. And while having multiple backing assets reduces the chance of black swan event even more it does not make this chance = 0 ! And in this highly unlikely scenario, as you said it - "money for black swan event bailouts comes from forced MKR inflation. "

[38PTSWarrior]

Thanks, long live MKRCOIN!

Martin.. you know at the current market rate the MKRCOIN you have if you sell it would be equal to you receiving 1/2 a month of delegate pay that you are in bid for (38%).

You keep telling everyone you want to show us what you can do if you had the funds. This is your chance to demonstrate at least 2 weeks worth. It might be what people need to see to demonstrate the value of making you a delegate.

Just pointing out the opportunity you have here.

If you really want to hold MKRCOIN.. then you can always buy more later with your delegate pay and treat it like a temporary loan. This assumes you demonstrate the value to be voted in of course.

Good luck.

I am thinking about it. At the moment I'm on a convincement campaign. I believe that I showed already that I bring value (see my recent threads).

[Rune]

And btw the MKR system is broken the same way BTS 1.0 is:

i.e. the stable coin creator has no incentive to pay insurance (even at 0%, say nothing at 2%) or interest on the so called loan, in the case of stable or falling MKR price (or expectation of such price move). Quite the opposite - she will demand interest for creating the product -  the stable coin (or whatever you chose to call it). THe nightmare will get even bigger when people realize that MKR system is running with 1.no insurance fund, 2 on top of general purpose (read slow) system 3.

The system supports negative interest rates if the supply and demand ends up moving it in that direction (so you could potentially earn money by issuing Dai if Dai demand is huge). But considering that the interest rate for leveraged BTC trading on bitfinex sits at around 20% APR at the moment..... I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon.

ETH rates haven't really stabilized yet but I'm expecting them to start out a similar level, and ETH margin trading is likely going to be our primary usecase in the short run - so from that I'm expecting a nice yield.

Their only hope of keeping the stable coin stable is by printing even more of the already falling MKR tokens.

I think you might have misunderstood how the system works. MKR inflation only happens in case there is an ETH (or BTC/MKR etc.) black swan event to the point where some of the CDP's (Dai issuing collateralized debt positions) become undercollateralized and have to be bailed out by Maker. We're setting our BTC margin requirements competetively with bitfinex (allowing 3x leverage) which we consider to be a safe level based on analysis of historical BTC price data. ETH leverage will be set at 2x since we prefer to err to the side of caution, and this is a very conservative number when you compare it to well established services like Kraken that are already offering 5x ETH margin. MKR will be set at 2x as well, but with a very low debt ceiling.

We're still working on explanations that are less technically dense than the whitepaper (or rather, a scalable pipeline for outputting such material), so these mechanisms become easier to understand. I really appreciate anyone giving the system a critical look - it will be vital that any potential pitfalls are discovered early.

Here's the most updated version of the DCS whitepaper: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UPMEd407jT6zyvxZRH3N6ay_rjlO4SVKPiaxCgVUIbc/edit#heading=h.33vkknjnanfu

Anyone can add comments directly on the page if you have critique, suggestions or something that needs clarification.

First - thanks for answering. Second thanks for confirming I correctly understood how your system works. Now to the highly unlikely scenario of a black swan event. Not saying this will happen but a theoretical response is needed anyway to prove that the system works!

Here is the case:
1. MKR starts with flat or falling share price (or predominant perception for such move).
2. Point one leads to negative yield (aka the shorters demand to be paid interest instead of giving any interest) - I am pretty sure I have several posts on this forum explaining precisely why this happens and the exact mechanics of this.
3. Point 2 leads to empty insurance fund.
4. In case of black swan and point 3., the only way to compensate the stable coin holders is to print more BKR, which unfortunately leads to even bigger drop in its price. And that is in addition to the price drop that caused the black swan event.

=> not only the stable coin holders do not get interest, but they use a coin that is not insured anymore than the  BTS bitUSD holders (which do not have any insurance fund to begin with).

MKR is just one of the many types of collateral that are going to back the Dai (and it will be a minor part of it since the debt ceiling will be very low). The vast majority of Dai are going to be backed by major assets like BTC, ETH, gold (through Digixglobal) and whatever else there is demand by traders to margin trade with. If the MKR price is falling it just means nobody is gonna do leveraged longs with MKR, that's perfectly fine as long as there's some other asset people want to margin trade (as mentioned before the interest rate for borrowing USD for BTC margin trade currently sits at around 20% APR, meaning there is an abundance of demand)

Also there is no "insurance fund". The market cap of MKR is the insurance fund, and the money for black swan event bailouts comes from forced MKR inflation. The Maker vault is more of a checking account that all cash flow passes through, and money that doesnt go to operational expenses are funnelled to the MKR holders through buy & burn

[tonyk]

And btw the MKR system is broken the same way BTS 1.0 is:

i.e. the stable coin creator has no incentive to pay insurance (even at 0%, say nothing at 2%) or interest on the so called loan, in the case of stable or falling MKR price (or expectation of such price move). Quite the opposite - she will demand interest for creating the product -  the stable coin (or whatever you chose to call it). THe nightmare will get even bigger when people realize that MKR system is running with 1.no insurance fund, 2 on top of general purpose (read slow) system 3.

The system supports negative interest rates if the supply and demand ends up moving it in that direction (so you could potentially earn money by issuing Dai if Dai demand is huge). But considering that the interest rate for leveraged BTC trading on bitfinex sits at around 20% APR at the moment..... I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon.

ETH rates haven't really stabilized yet but I'm expecting them to start out a similar level, and ETH margin trading is likely going to be our primary usecase in the short run - so from that I'm expecting a nice yield.

Their only hope of keeping the stable coin stable is by printing even more of the already falling MKR tokens.

I think you might have misunderstood how the system works. MKR inflation only happens in case there is an ETH (or BTC/MKR etc.) black swan event to the point where some of the CDP's (Dai issuing collateralized debt positions) become undercollateralized and have to be bailed out by Maker. We're setting our BTC margin requirements competetively with bitfinex (allowing 3x leverage) which we consider to be a safe level based on analysis of historical BTC price data. ETH leverage will be set at 2x since we prefer to err to the side of caution, and this is a very conservative number when you compare it to well established services like Kraken that are already offering 5x ETH margin. MKR will be set at 2x as well, but with a very low debt ceiling.

We're still working on explanations that are less technically dense than the whitepaper (or rather, a scalable pipeline for outputting such material), so these mechanisms become easier to understand. I really appreciate anyone giving the system a critical look - it will be vital that any potential pitfalls are discovered early.

Here's the most updated version of the DCS whitepaper: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UPMEd407jT6zyvxZRH3N6ay_rjlO4SVKPiaxCgVUIbc/edit#heading=h.33vkknjnanfu

Anyone can add comments directly on the page if you have critique, suggestions or something that needs clarification.

First - thanks for answering. Second thanks for confirming I correctly understood how your system works. Now to the highly unlikely scenario of a black swan event. Not saying this will happen but a theoretical response is needed anyway to prove that the system works!

Here is the case:
1. MKR starts with flat or falling share price (or predominant perception for such move).
2. Point one leads to negative yield (aka the shorters demand to be paid interest instead of giving any interest) - I am pretty sure I have several posts on this forum explaining precisely why this happens and the exact mechanics of this.
3. Point 2 leads to empty insurance fund.
4. In case of black swan and point 3., the only way to compensate the stable coin holders is to print more BKR, which unfortunately leads to even bigger drop in its price. And that is in addition to the price drop that caused the black swan event.

=> not only the stable coin holders do not get interest, but they use a coin that is not insured anymore than the  BTS bitUSD holders (which do not have any insurance fund to begin with).

[Rune]

And btw the MKR system is broken the same way BTS 1.0 is:

i.e. the stable coin creator has no incentive to pay insurance (even at 0%, say nothing at 2%) or interest on the so called loan, in the case of stable or falling MKR price (or expectation of such price move). Quite the opposite - she will demand interest for creating the product -  the stable coin (or whatever you chose to call it). THe nightmare will get even bigger when people realize that MKR system is running with 1.no insurance fund, 2 on top of general purpose (read slow) system 3.

The system supports negative interest rates if the supply and demand ends up moving it in that direction (so you could potentially earn money by issuing Dai if Dai demand is huge). But considering that the interest rate for leveraged BTC trading on bitfinex sits at around 20% APR at the moment..... I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon.

ETH rates haven't really stabilized yet but I'm expecting them to start out a similar level, and ETH margin trading is likely going to be our primary usecase in the short run - so from that I'm expecting a nice yield.

Their only hope of keeping the stable coin stable is by printing even more of the already falling MKR tokens.

I think you might have misunderstood how the system works. MKR inflation only happens in case there is an ETH (or BTC/MKR etc.) black swan event to the point where some of the CDP's (Dai issuing collateralized debt positions) become undercollateralized and have to be bailed out by Maker. We're setting our BTC margin requirements competetively with bitfinex (allowing 3x leverage) which we consider to be a safe level based on analysis of historical BTC price data. ETH leverage will be set at 2x since we prefer to err to the side of caution, and this is a very conservative number when you compare it to well established services like Kraken that are already offering 5x ETH margin. MKR will be set at 2x as well, but with a very low debt ceiling.

We're still working on explanations that are less technically dense than the whitepaper (or rather, a scalable pipeline for outputting such material), so these mechanisms become easier to understand. I really appreciate anyone giving the system a critical look - it will be vital that any potential pitfalls are discovered early.

Here's the most updated version of the DCS whitepaper: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UPMEd407jT6zyvxZRH3N6ay_rjlO4SVKPiaxCgVUIbc/edit#heading=h.33vkknjnanfu

Anyone can add comments directly on the page if you have critique, suggestions or something that needs clarification.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

Thanks, long live MKRCOIN!

Martin.. you know at the current market rate the MKRCOIN you have if you sell it would be equal to you receiving 1/2 a month of delegate pay that you are in bid for (38%).

You keep telling everyone you want to show us what you can do if you had the funds. This is your chance to demonstrate at least 2 weeks worth. It might be what people need to see to demonstrate the value of making you a delegate.

Just pointing out the opportunity you have here.

If you really want to hold MKRCOIN.. then you can always buy more later with your delegate pay and treat it like a temporary loan. This assumes you demonstrate the value to be voted in of course.

Good luck.

[liondani]

And btw the MKR system is broken the same way BTS 1.0 is:

i.e. the stable coin creator has no incentive to pay insurance (even at 0%, say nothing at 2%) or interest on the so called loan, in the case of stable or falling MKR price (or expectation of such price move). Quite the opposite - she will demand interest for creating the product -  the stable coin (or whatever you chose to call it). THe nightmare will get even bigger when people realize that MKR system is running with 1.no insurance fund, 2 on top of general purpose (read slow) system 3. Their only hope of keeping the stable coin stable is by printing even more of the already falling MKR tokens.

I respect always your opinion (since everything you said have historically proven right)
Can you propose them a solution on top of their idea ...  can a insurance fund solve all their problems?

[rycon872]

Nope, haven't seen any MKRCOIN yet and I was there.

BTS: rycon872

Thanks guys

[38PTSWarrior]

Thanks, long live MKRCOIN!

[cass]

Who made the artwork for Maker?

I've got 10 bucks on it being Cass

yup 

[wbs151]

I didn't receive MKRCOIN yet, either. Thank you in advance.
Mumble: amiwow, BTS: amirichwow01

[tonyk]

And btw the MKR system is broken the same way BTS 1.0 is:

i.e. the stable coin creator has no incentive to pay insurance (even at 0%, say nothing at 2%) or interest on the so called loan, in the case of stable or falling MKR price (or expectation of such price move). Quite the opposite - she will demand interest for creating the product -  the stable coin (or whatever you chose to call it). THe nightmare will get even bigger when people realize that MKR system is running with 1.no insurance fund, 2 on top of general purpose (read slow) system 3. Their only hope of keeping the stable coin stable is by printing even more of the already falling MKR tokens.

[Tuck Fheman]

lel, I thought I heard that everyone was receiving 2,000 MKR each during the Hangout and I was like, "dayum!".

I see it must have been 2,000 total split among everyone. That makes more sense.