how MineBitShares works? worth 7 100% delegate???

[NewMine]

But if they can't acquire and use bitassests because of low liquidity why would they stay?

[Serious]
Is Liquidity really that dependent on minebitshares?  Can anyone provide the daily minebitshares* bitUSD totals vs. entire market daily totals?

*Let's not cherry pick one day, let's get an average.

[mint chocolate chip]

How much is the daily payout now, it used to be only 2,000 BTS per day back in January/February, and looking at the current stats http://pool.minebitshares.com/workers there just aren't that many actual workers mining.

what is the daily payout on this mining pool right now?

2000 BTS on average...

[santaclause102]

I have said this several times over but I am guessing people are set in their own perceptions and opinions of what is actually happening in the market so I will say it again for clarify.

It took me quite a long time to come up with this plan, primarily because I identified all the same old things that have been mentioned by gamey regarding coins, miners etc.

This is why the only solution is innovation

I wish I could go into this in my details right now but I am piled on with work atm.

Bottom line.. initially our first phases does operate with the expectation to attract existing miners.

Following this though, we begin to reach beyond the mining community and then get into expanding into new markets.

The only way to do that is to make mining more accessible. Some operations in the past have done this successfully. They attracted miners far beyond the current scope, but operated on a faulty business model and bad management that resulted in their closure.

The launch of ethereum has gotten people pulling out their old GPUs again..

Also it was mentioned we don't support sha256.. that's right.. we don't at present.. part of the updates being done right now that these delegates are paying for will include supporting sha256 among other algos that are actually worth working with contrary to the believe. Not all profitably in mining takes place on coinmarketcap. Actually some of the best opportunities often are not there.

Anyways.. I could go on but the point is.. there is a much bigger market we are expanding into.. and with that I found the possibility to move forward.. otherwise.. I would have folded probably after the 1st month and just shut down the pool.

I have asked this question before and I will ask it again... by not wanting to support all these delegates so we can get the dev done and create a sustainable pool that grows bitshares.. the alternative is just to stop it dead.. shut it down.. and kill all the delegates instantly. Ask yourselves.. will that be of more benefit to bitshares than what this is offering? I think the numbers shout a resounding no.

As the delegate dropping out.. that has been happening for days now. It happens everytime Chinese markets open.. what I think it says is that there are Chinese who are opening their wallets now that were not before and are not updating their vote. The trend has been pretty consistent like that.

What are these markets you mentioned?

You may also be inspired by this:

I still think that it would be reasonable to point out whether profits (if any are made) will go to you or to BTS holders. I think that IN GENERAL delegate proposals are WAY TO VAUGUE. A delegate proposal imo should look like this:
-  I need x amount to deliver (of that x, y is paid to me, w is paid to server costs, z is paid to hired developers).
-  All of the profits made from the service I want to deliver is paid back to BTS holders OR r % is going to me and t % to BTS holders OR I see the delegate pay as a kickstarter for a net positive service for BTS holders and all profits will go to me.
-  In case I can not acquire the necessary x amount to deliver the service I propose I will give everything back to BTS holders (burn it) OR I will finance the rest out of my own pocket and therefore adjust the distribution of the profits.
Naturally these numbers can only be estimates.

I can't say whether you ignored the question about where profits go but you def. haven't answered it despite all the long answers you gave.

[Pheonike]

But if they can't acquire and use bitassests because of low liquidity why would they stay?

[sudo]

a user-friendly mobile bts wallet app  can Attract and retain more user  than mine BitUSD
a pc light wallet also needed

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

I have said this several times over but I am guessing people are set in their own perceptions and opinions of what is actually happening in the market so I will say it again for clarify.

It took me quite a long time to come up with this plan, primarily because I identified all the same old things that have been mentioned by gamey regarding coins, miners etc.

This is why the only solution is innovation

I wish I could go into this in my details right now but I am piled on with work atm.

Bottom line.. initially our first phases does operate with the expectation to attract existing miners.

Following this though, we begin to reach beyond the mining community and then get into expanding into new markets.

The only way to do that is to make mining more accessible. Some operations in the past have done this successfully. They attracted miners far beyond the current scope, but operated on a faulty business model and bad management that resulted in their closure.

The launch of ethereum has gotten people pulling out their old GPUs again..

Also it was mentioned we don't support sha256.. that's right.. we don't at present.. part of the updates being done right now that these delegates are paying for will include supporting sha256 among other algos that are actually worth working with contrary to the believe. Not all profitably in mining takes place on coinmarketcap. Actually some of the best opportunities often are not there.

Anyways.. I could go on but the point is.. there is a much bigger market we are expanding into.. and with that I found the possibility to move forward.. otherwise.. I would have folded probably after the 1st month and just shut down the pool.

I have asked this question before and I will ask it again... by not wanting to support all these delegates so we can get the dev done and create a sustainable pool that grows bitshares.. the alternative is just to stop it dead.. shut it down.. and kill all the delegates instantly. Ask yourselves.. will that be of more benefit to bitshares than what this is offering? I think the numbers shout a resounding no.

As the delegate dropping out.. that has been happening for days now. It happens everytime Chinese markets open.. what I think it says is that there are Chinese who are opening their wallets now that were not before and are not updating their vote. The trend has been pretty consistent like that.

[Empirical1.2]

1 of the MineBitShares delegates has been voted out, seems shareholders have chosen to upvote a dead delegate as a stop gap measure, that's saying something. 

[Tuck Fheman]

The people building the destination for your bicycle route make 1/8 what you are getting.

This is my concern with the # of delegates.

There are a lot of people working with Beyond Bitcoin (and I'm sure they're not alone) right now off of 1 delegates pay split among all of them.

There are others working with Beyond Bitcoin that rely on donations from other delegates because there's not enough to go around with only 1 delegate.

The work/content (they get this small portion of delegate pay for) is posted publicly and quickly where all can see, free of charge (outside of 1 delegates pay split among them all).

Each week I would surmise that everyone contributing to the Beyond Bitcoin Hangouts puts in 10+ hours of their time while receiving approximately 4500 BTS (best guess).

Currently, as far as I can tell, Beyond Bitcoin is one of the premier destinations outside of this forum for everything BitShares.

It's a finished product that's been producing for quite some time and all while on 1 delegate.

If people want to know what's going on, they go to BeyondBitcoin.org and listen to the Hangouts or read the transcripts (or try to find it here).

But here's the kicker. If that 1 delegate got voted out, I bet nothing would change. Beyond Bitcoin Hangouts would continue and everyone would just "make do" (I'm learning old skool english phrases).

I'm simply more willing to pay those kind of people, who produce a known beneficial product quickly no matter what pay they receive, versus paying another group that will only produce an unproven future product if they receive nearly 7-8% of all delegate pay in the entire ecosystem.

That's just my opinion.

[santaclause102]

As for Delulo.. he sent me a personal IM apologizing and letting me know that he had not seen my post prior to him making that post a few hours afterwards and told me that was not his intentions. I accepted his apology. Had he seen it he would have paused before jumping the gun on conclusions without information. Nonetheless we explored all the benefits extensively.

That sounds like I took back my content related criticism. I said " sorry if you felt like I intentionally did this before your update".

Here is the message I sent to Jonathan (Datasecuritynode) (contains what I already said elsewhere on this forum in condensed form):

non of all that was ever personal in any way. Hope it came across like that.
I just want all projects to be explicit and upfront with all the financial issues.
Is it a private for profit business that is financed by public funds etc? Such questions will come up anyway at some point if the business is successfull and if these questions were not answered right at the beginning in a prominent way, visible to all than that creates trouble for DPOS as an idea, for you as your reputation might suffer and for BTS holders because they might have assumed something else etc. I am just afraid that if we don't establish a public scrutiny / due diligence culture DPOS in general works a lot less well.
I am sorry if you felt like I intentionally did this before your update. I had no about about your update or your sleep schedule

I still think that it would be reasonable to point out whether profits (if any are made) will go to you or to BTS holders. I think that IN GENERAL delegate proposals are WAY TO VAUGUE. A delegate proposal imo should look like this:
-  I need x amount to deliver (of that x, y is paid to me, w is paid to server costs, z is paid to hired developers).
-  All of the profits made from the service I want to deliver is paid back to BTS holders OR r % is going to me and t % to BTS holders OR I see the delegate pay as a kickstarter for a net positive service for BTS holders and all profits will go to me.
-  In case I can not acquire the necessary x amount to deliver the service I propose I will give everything back to BTS holders (burn it) OR I will finance the rest out of my own pocket and therefore adjust the distribution of the profits.
Naturally these numbers can only be estimates.

I haven't seen this degree of EXPLICITNESS from anyone except PC (for a few others it is not that relevant, full time devs etc.). I pointed this out with your proposal because 7 delegates makes the above more relevant. But I would point it out with anyone else.

[gamey]

I will admit I forgot the benefit of liquidity from the project. I also admit that my needs for the mining pool project were probably higher than yours as far as userbase size. Thats not an insult.. thats just the reality of the markets outside BTC.

I was once a miner and like everyone I personally know who mined coins, I no longer do it.

I have no DPOS goggles on. To the contrary - I think Dan did a lot of great things with DPOS and the concept of partial decentralization may very well drive the next Bitcoin if and when we see one. I don't think I am blinded by any of this. From what I recall you aren't providing SHA256 mining, which along with SCRYPT are probably the only 2 worth chasing at this point. Nothing new appears on coinmarketcap at the top... just a general trend down. Mining BitUSD has a lot more appeal after people have been repeatedly hit with a decline in BTC value. BTC seems to have finally found the bottom for the time being. If that is true, then the appeal to bitUSD will be smaller and what appeal your pool has will come from the subsidizing.

I think POW is dead as far as new contender coins. It will stick around with all litecoin and BTC for the forseeable future. I don't think altcoins that are newly made to serve as a currency are going to go anywhere anytime soon except down. There will be a continued thinning of the market. That is not particularly related to blockchain technology which is just as much a computer science thing as it is a currency thing. I see them as 2 different issues. The early True Believers will always be about POW and BTC and to a lesser extent LTC.

I have no idea what you mean by "BTC bubble market outlook". The value I was referencing was that of your project. I don't think BTC will shoot up to 1k again anytime soon or drop under $200. I think it will slowly go back up, which takes the appeal of bitUSD away. I do think there was an altcoin POW bubble though and I do not believe we'll see them rising again as a general trend. Even with the big scare in China's market, BTC didn't budge much.

By shelf-life I just mean the continued downwards trend of POW based coins not including BTC/LTC.  I doubt that will change. The excitement has died off except for the most diehard of crypto-currency nerds. The market being targeted by your project has been shrinking and will continue to shrink. If you think otherwise, I personally would question your motives since I don't know you personally.

Anyway, I'm just clarifying my view since it appears I wasn't clear enough from your response.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

I tend to agree with newmine here except he is confused in his point #2 of 3.

This would have been a great idea some time ago. As it is, with BTC seeming to have hit the bottom and the halving coming in sight, the value is even more questionable. I gave up on a mining pool project, for a variety of reasons but one being the potential profits were going down considerably  and that was well over a year ago.  This is a project with a definite shelf-life.

One thing about crypto people, it is full of a lot of true believers. I wish Jonathan (?) luck but looking at this objectively it might be better to just cut one's losses.

I don't think Delulo was being underhanded, just look at the project in terms of the data available.

If you take assumptions based out of a BTC bubble market outlook everything you said would be correct.

I suggest the bubble outlook however is broken.

Without identifying the many other opportunities outside of just BTC and ignoring the many other alt coins that are introduced pretty much every quarter, this outlooks begins to falter.

I fully expect the pool to make numerous movements as the market moves in crypto.

Bytemaster in a recent hangout himself talked about how everything is moving to the blockchain. Will 'everything' immediately move to DPOS ONLY? Or is there a likelyhood that the hundreds of millions invested in various bitcoin/altcoin based projects are going to continue to use similar mining and bitcoin blockchain technology?

It's easy within the DPOS community to only look out at the future with DPOS goggles and say 'what use is mining.... we are here.. it's done'... and as much as I would like to see DPOS sweep over all others like a cleansing flood in biblical proportions, it's just not likely in reality.

This project however, enables BitShares to continue to benefit from mining.

Much needed liquidity into our markets
More volumes
Making miners BitShares users

To suggest that pooled crypto hash power has a shelf life in this early environment is a faulty assumption that like I said, is easy to have with DPOS goggles from  within our community.

It might be why a lot of the support we are getting from this community are from people who were or are miners themselves who are on the other side of the fence and can see for themselves all the benefits this brings.

As for Delulo.. he sent me a personal IM apologizing and letting me know that he had not seen my post prior to him making that post a few hours afterwards and told me that was not his intentions. I accepted his apology. Had he seen it he would have paused before jumping the gun on conclusions without information. Nonetheless we explored all the benefits extensively.

I have an exit strategy for the delegates which I have outlined in detail. In order to continue to make it sustainable and move with the market there are other elements that need to merge with mining (nice pun there) in order to make it meet the needs of the current and future markets. That might be where the 'shelf life' as noted comes into effect. The old model being shelved per/say and the new put into effect.

[Pheonike]

POW needs miners.
Miners need maximum profit.
We need liquidity.

As long as those three statements are true, minebitshares can work.

[gamey]

I tend to agree with newmine here except he is confused in his point #2 of 3.

This would have been a great idea some time ago. As it is, with BTC seeming to have hit the bottom and the halving coming in sight, the value is even more questionable. I gave up on a mining pool project, for a variety of reasons but one being the potential profits were going down considerably  and that was well over a year ago.  This is a project with a definite shelf-life.

One thing about crypto people, it is full of a lot of true believers. I wish Jonathan (?) luck but looking at this objectively it might be better to just cut one's losses.

I don't think Delulo was being underhanded, just look at the project in terms of the data available.

[mangou007]

I personally refreshed my votes for all of your delegates as I really do see the long run of what you are doing.
Keep up 

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

Datnode: "I need a truck and some to tools build a road(liquidity) for future cars and bikes. I will sell the truck when i'm done."
newmine: "Why you want a truck when we can buy cars and bikes now"
Datnode: "You wanna buy car and bikes and no roads? That's a parking lot. "

Haha.. YES!  Thanks for the more accurate perspective of the analogy.