Author Topic: BitShares X Status Update  (Read 264219 times)

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Offline santaclause102

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Offline santaclause102

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Lets just skip caring about deadlines and continue building a superior crypto community

I fully support you BM!!
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Agree. BM and the team is not delaying anything on purpose. Why should they? Our advantage is theirs and vice versa. It is in the nature of complex ventures that they never go as planed. Even though that could have been communicated better by III. But that is a non crucial issue... Honour their work by paying applying constructive criticsm.


Offline xeroc

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Lets just skip caring about deadlines and continue building a superior crypto community

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Offline bytemaster


Unfortunately your stance on the above issue makes more believable the following scenario: Setting artificially early day for the snapshot because such date provided 3 benefits for 3I:
 1. Serious inflow of funds to the AGS account.
This isn't a bad thing. The point of ags is funding. It would be one thing if they created a snapshot, got ags funding and ran. However they didn't do that they are still coding away and developing the bitshares brand. Clearly they are focused on the big picture. If anything the early snapshot lost funding opportunity for I3, since people are less optimistic about the other DACs and simply want to profit from early investment in bitshares x. So now the price of ags is significantly lower/there are less donations because people understand that they have less to gain from donating at this point. I dont think funding is an issue at this point. It is my perception that they can accomplish the development their dacs without additional funds. Its more of an investment opportunity for the community.
2. At the same time – the total position of 3I, in PTS and AGS (as a percentage), allowed for maximizing the company’s share of the BTS.
Once again this is not a bad thing. Firstly they should receive a large stake in what they are developing, because they are the ones that are putting everything on the line to develop and market it. Secondly, their ability to accumulate stake in pts and ags is due to their understanding of how valuable the concept of a dac is, while most people do not understand the implications of this technology
3. At the same time, i.e. while achieving 2. above,  giving AGS and PTS holders 50% each i.e. all of the shares- far above the promised minimum of 10%. And looking good for doing so.
This is the point where I can't even entertain your logic. So they have accumulated a large stake in ags and pts by doing exactly what any investor in the community can do on their own - buy pts, mine pts, donate pts to ags fund, donate btc to ags fund. You have to see that there are no barriers to access in the investment vehicle they have provided. The only barrier is ignorance. Second instead of only donating 20% to ags/pts and keeping the rest for themselves they have allocated all bts to ags and pts holders thereby leveling the playing field once more. It is not mathematically possible that they can have a larger stake in bts by doing this. All i know is that whereas my stake in bts would have been 0.0026% under the initial agreement, my stake is now 0.013% under the current agreement

Lets make some things clear:

1) We could have raised more money by not announcing the snapshot and missing an artificial deadline
2) Knowing a longer time horizon would have given us the wisdom to spread out our own investments and thus maximize the AGS per PTS / BTC
3) Early estimates (made in January) were based upon the following assumptions
     a) release with a single trustee and eventually turn into Consensus + TaPOS
     b) that there were no unexpected market manipulation attacks.
     c) that the MVP would not be extensible for many alternative DACs.
4) Since then we have found problems with Consensus and also market manipulation attacks
     a) we have opted to avoid the single trustee and go straight to DPOS. 
     b) we have opted for a phased approach to minimize risk
     c) we have refactored into an extensible toolkit and thus accelerated the timeline of many other DACs.

So rather than looking at this as merely missing a release date or some kind of conspiracy we need to view this from the perspective that we have increased the features to be tested in the MVP and accelerated follow on DACs.  This decision was made to maximize the value of testing in the MVP from the perspective of all DACs.   So taken as a whole the schedule hasn't slipped as we will be delivering more in the MVP than we had originally planned.


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Offline maqifrnswa

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Everyone knows people that buy AGS now will not get bitshares X. If you want bitshares X, do not buy AGS now. I don't see why it is unfair that people do not get what they did not pay for?

I think I3 shot themselves in the foot with the early snapshot (hurting the ability to fundraise for longer), but what they are doing now is being fair and honouring their agreement. Look how much donations have dropped since Feb 28. Even including the run-up, I3 would have been better to not do the snapshot that early (more money for development).

Since the evidence shows that I3 was acting in good faith (since they hurt themselves more than AGS holders by doing an early snapshot), and people should not get what they did not pay for, everything appears to be fine... I really can't see what the problem is in their strategy...

EDIT: I'm even more confused, tonyk is contradicting himself. At one point he says the early snap shot was disingenuous since it provided I3 the benefit of "Serious inflow of funds to the AGS account." but then counters the rebutal to that point by saying, " it would have been even better if the active investment period had continued for twice or 3 times as long, getting 2-3 times more money, involving more and more people." He basically destroyed his own argument. The logic at the other points doesn't make sense either, and is circular.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 08:05:35 pm by maqifrnswa »
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Offline jwiz168

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Though this project is delayed for several reasons that are sometimes arguable in the views of some investors, I think once the bts is ready  , secured and efficiently designed, domino-effect would occur to every I3 DACs on the horizon. After the launch of Bitshare X , investors may see how fast their ROI can be as DACs would spring up like mushrooms . Patience is the key. The ideas are already in place. Implementation really takes time. But time is really important than anything else. Losing investments due to time constraints have great impacts on all businesses. This is the main reason why blockchain is being considered as alternative business model. It is FAST, efficient and most importantly DECENTRALIZED.

clout

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You're clearly just looking to complain about things for the sake of complaining. If they split it 40/40/20 you would be worse off and they would be better off. It doesn't make any sense why you have a problem with the allocation.

Offline bytemaster

GUI does not delay anything and is a parallel effort. 


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Offline tonyk

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1.Good by itself – if not achieved by artificially early delivery  date. And btw it would have been even better if the active investment period had continued for twice or 3 times as long, getting 2-3 times more money, involving more and more people (instead of thinking today about airdrops)

2.The fair way to achieve 2 is to just say: Here is the distribution 40/40/20 AGS/PTS/Developers, and not by pretending to be 50/50 and achieving 40/40/20 with artificially early date.(BTW I personally am more than fine with 10 to 20% share for the developers)

3.Great! If not looking for workarounds to get better position and  only taking the benefit as if you have done the best you can.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 07:52:42 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

clout

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Unfortunately your stance on the above issue makes more believable the following scenario: Setting artificially early day for the snapshot because such date provided 3 benefits for 3I:
 1. Serious inflow of funds to the AGS account.
This isn't a bad thing. The point of ags is funding. It would be one thing if they created a snapshot, got ags funding and ran. However they didn't do that they are still coding away and developing the bitshares brand. Clearly they are focused on the big picture. If anything the early snapshot lost funding opportunity for I3, since people are less optimistic about the other DACs and simply want to profit from early investment in bitshares x. So now the price of ags is significantly lower/there are less donations because people understand that they have less to gain from donating at this point. I dont think funding is an issue at this point. It is my perception that they can accomplish the development their dacs without additional funds. Its more of an investment opportunity for the community.
2. At the same time – the total position of 3I, in PTS and AGS (as a percentage), allowed for maximizing the company’s share of the BTS.
Once again this is not a bad thing. Firstly they should receive a large stake in what they are developing, because they are the ones that are putting everything on the line to develop and market it. Secondly, their ability to accumulate stake in pts and ags is due to their understanding of how valuable the concept of a dac is, while most people do not understand the implications of this technology
3. At the same time, i.e. while achieving 2. above,  giving AGS and PTS holders 50% each i.e. all of the shares- far above the promised minimum of 10%. And looking good for doing so.
This is the point where I can't even entertain your logic. So they have accumulated a large stake in ags and pts by doing exactly what any investor in the community can do on their own - buy pts, mine pts, donate pts to ags fund, donate btc to ags fund. You have to see that there are no barriers to access in the investment vehicle they have provided. The only barrier is ignorance. Second instead of only donating 20% to ags/pts and keeping the rest for themselves they have allocated all bts to ags and pts holders thereby leveling the playing field once more. It is not mathematically possible that they can have a larger stake in bts by doing this. All i know is that whereas my stake in bts would have been 0.0026% under the initial agreement, my stake is now 0.013% under the current agreement

Offline tonyk

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Clout, I would have  agreed with you if the delay was not as long as it is now, which in turn leads to conspiracy theories in my head. (see above)
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

clout

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you've missed the point of ags. ags is not just for bitshares x it is for all bitshares dacs. the snapshot has been taken for bitshares x already. current ags donations are being honored in future dacs, such as bitshares me and dns and lotto. all ags gets honored, but you have to make your donations before the snapshot of each specific dac type. i still donate to ags because my stake in the entire dac industry gets diluted as more ags are issued. however my stake in bts x is not getting diluted because that snapshot has already been taken. in order to make the best of your investment, buy now while it is cheap and few ppl understand the value of it.

Offline mint chocolate chip

What is the reasoning to not honor AGS that came into existence after 2/28?

It is a weak argument that you promised that. When you said that you also promised a product in about 2 weeks. With the delay now in the significant category, I think it is time to reconsider that. With every passing day it seems more and more like you are not honoring significant part of the AGS  (at least 50% as of today +2 weeks) and arguing with the above argument seems more and more as a way to go around your ‘social consensus’ promise…

 More than that (in my opinion) it is unreasonable to not give stake for those who continue their support even with and during the delay.

My 2 bips...

It all boils down to the bump in this chart leading up to February 28th:


People skipped lunch and sold some of their offspring to donate at this time based on the understanding that after the 28th donations would have one less DAC to honor them.

As for why we picked this date, we promised two weeks notice and the 28th was the earliest we thought we could be ready - until we discovered more R&D was needed in the security model.  In the future, we will wait till everything is known to be ready, then give our two weeks notice.  This will make the snapshot occur two weeks later than necessary but will avoid it happening many weeks too early.

Obviously it would have been advantageous for the community to have had the donations toward BTS continue during this time, if we knew then what we know today.


I get it – Slight dilution of early AGS adopters is not OK, but not honoring over 50% of AGS holders is perfectly fine…
OK let’s wait and see what % of the AGS holders you will end up not honoring…
People donating for AGS the two weeks before the snapshot paid around 10X more for those AGS - so they can get in on the BTS - than what is being paid now for AGS, so it is more than "slight".

Offline tonyk

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What is the reasoning to not honor AGS that came into existence after 2/28?

It is a weak argument that you promised that. When you said that you also promised a product in about 2 weeks. With the delay now in the significant category, I think it is time to reconsider that. With every passing day it seems more and more like you are not honoring significant part of the AGS  (at least 50% as of today +2 weeks) and arguing with the above argument seems more and more as a way to go around your ‘social consensus’ promise…

 More than that (in my opinion) it is unreasonable to not give stake for those who continue their support even with and during the delay.

My 2 bips...

It all boils down to the bump in this chart leading up to February 28th:


People skipped lunch and sold some of their offspring to donate at this time based on the understanding that after the 28th donations would have one less DAC to honor them.

As for why we picked this date, we promised two weeks notice and the 28th was the earliest we thought we could be ready - until we discovered more R&D was needed in the security model.  In the future, we will wait till everything is known to be ready, then give our two weeks notice.  This will make the snapshot occur two weeks later than necessary but will avoid it happening many weeks too early.

Obviously it would have been advantageous for the community to have had the donations toward BTS continue during this time, if we knew then what we know today.


I get it – Slight dilution of early AGS adopters is not OK, but not honoring over 50% of AGS holders is perfectly fine…
OK let’s wait and see what % of the AGS holders you will end up not honoring…


Unfortunately your stance on the above issue makes more believable the following scenario: Setting artificially early day for the snapshot because such date provided 3 benefits for 3I:
 1. Serious inflow of funds to the AGS account.
2. At the same time – the total position of 3I, in PTS and AGS (as a percentage), allowed for maximizing the company’s share of the BTS.
3. At the same time, i.e. while achieving 2. above,  giving AGS and PTS holders 50% each i.e. all of the shares- far above the promised minimum of 10%. And looking good for doing so.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 06:41:43 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bytemaster

GUI does not delay anything and is a parallel effort. 


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For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.