Author Topic: Lets vote for lower fees!  (Read 7359 times)

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Offline pal

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Lets vote for lower fees!
« on: October 16, 2015, 09:29:47 pm »
Price of BTS falling after lunch and this seems strange. System that developers put up is really good. We should see 10x increase, but we see decay, again!

There are two reasons for this:
1. High fees.
2. Centralization.

We could solve this. We could be wrong in our calculations about marketing, but we have the ability to change things. Why don't we try?

No other blockchain could not govern itself in such an efficient manner as Bitshares and we could prove it!

I don't want to see BTS for 0.0000150 again. I don't want to pay high fees and hear others complain. And I don't want to hear that Bitshares centralized. If you agree - just vote for pal as committee and we will change things, together.

My proposal:
Let's reduce all fees by the factor of 4.
Our system very good, we should be able to grow by 4x in short time if there will be no such resistance as high fees for people to use Bitshares.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2015, 09:32:36 pm »
I disagree with reducing fees for two main reasons:

1) It makes the referral program a lot less interesting if you dont expect the users you bring in to generate much of any fees.  So then it will fail.

2) A big reason why the BTS price has been trending down for a year is that the supply is increasing, that is, the blockchain is operating at a loss instead of being profitable.  As soon as we can demonstrate a blockchain making a profit over a reasonable period of time, even a small profit, it will attract a lot of attention.  Everyone is used to inflating blockchains that hemmorhage money (through PoW or whatever), but if you change that around and are actually making a profit, then a lot of investors will want to jump on board.  And helping the price break its downtrend is going to help adopting a LOT, because a major inhibitor to adoption right now is that everyone who buys in loses money and gets disillusioned.



Enough fees to turn a profit is the savior of BTS.

The fees for subscribers being 2 cents instead of .5 cent is not going to significantly impact our adoption.

The reason the price dropped is beacuse a bunch of peopel who had bought BTS prior to release but dont actually care about it long term all dumped it.  That had nothing at all to do with what the fee is.


I strongly encourage everyone to vote against lowering the fee.

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Offline roadscape

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2015, 09:44:05 pm »
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19134.msg246078.html#msg246078

Look at it this way:

1.  User issued assets can set any core-exchange-rate they like and lower the fees for users of the UIA to close to 0
2.  UIAs can charge market fees similar to exchanges
3.  $0.10 for a normal user or $0.02 cents for a lifetime member are so close to $0 that few would even think about it for a transaction over $10
4.  BTS is not meant to be payment currency.  How many people buy less than $10 worth of stock in a company?  What is the transaction fee on that?

In other words, the ability of users to do "price discrimination" falls apart at values this low.   Unless you are executing 1000's of transactions there is almost no perceivable difference.  Most people won't even bend over to pick up a DIME on the ground.

In other words from a customer perspective  $0.01 and $0.10 are effectively the SAME in low volumes.   At high volumes the price approaches $0.02 for lifetime members which is cheaper than Bitcoin. 

While the difference in price is insignificant to individual users, it is HUGE for the network.   The network is a party to every transaction and thus sees a 5x increase in revenue while the user perceives almost no difference in cost.
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Offline Akado

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 09:46:05 pm »
I think it's still to early for that and imo it's doesn't make any sense on blaming the fees. Do you think Bitshares is getting dumped because of the fees? Most people don't even know how much fees they pay. They simply look to make a profit and follow the money. The whole cryptoscene is in a bear market right now. It's not reasonable to blame fees for the decrease in price. Also, add what I mentioned to the fact that it's easy for someone to manipulate a market and there you go.

BitShares 2.0 just launched, price went from 1800 or less satoshis to 3000 for a short while, people sold the news. This is pretty much in a proof of concept atm. We don't have 100 partners wit 1000 of users each running on top of BitShares. We just launched. Expecting a 10x increase in price in this market is not reasonable and whoever stresses about the price not going through the roof atm only seems to be they want to dump.

Everything will happen in due time. We just started, first we need to prove 2.0 is running with no problems, the peg works and the referral system needs to start attracting more people. Only then can we expect a realistic increase in value.

First we attrack some because we're faster, safer, better and because we have a peg working. Then the referral system will do it's job. Meanwhile we will have a few worker proposals for new features. Things take time. We have everything set in place for things to work out, we only need patience.

You can't expect a day after a new software is launched to attract thousands of users. Maybe in the past when the market wasn't in this situation. But thing will happen in due time. Patience is key here. We've been through 1 bad year. Whoever handled this last year can probably wait for better results. it can only get better from my point of view.

We just defined our path and built the road (a good one), now we only need to start and go towards our objective at it's end.
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Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 09:48:09 pm »
I disagree with reducing fees for two main reasons:

1) It makes the referral program a lot less interesting if you dont expect the users you bring in to generate much of any fees.  So then it will fail.

2) A big reason why the BTS price has been trending down for a year is that the supply is increasing, that is, the blockchain is operating at a loss instead of being profitable.  As soon as we can demonstrate a blockchain making a profit over a reasonable period of time, even a small profit, it will attract a lot of attention.  Everyone is used to inflating blockchains that hemmorhage money (through PoW or whatever), but if you change that around and are actually making a profit, then a lot of investors will want to jump on board.  And helping the price break its downtrend is going to help adopting a LOT, because a major inhibitor to adoption right now is that everyone who buys in loses money and gets disillusioned.

...

1. Low fees are easy sell, we could subscribe more people. Any working referral program will be good incentive for people.
2. We made mistakes in the past, lowering we fees will not be worse than other decisions. But system will become actually usable by people, not investors.
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Offline Stan

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 09:49:57 pm »
BitShares has just set course to escape from the tyranny of speculators.  They hop from pump to pump and do not make decisions based on the long term value proposition, only the near term trend.

But now the BitShares has a way to bring in new blood and teach new users through the referral program, there will be steady upward pressure on the price.  Let's concentrate on ways to help new people from outside the speculator community learn to gain max value from using the system.  That kind of buy pressure is the sustainable kind!

Everybody can be an entrepreneur in this area and grow their income as they get good at it!

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 09:50:49 pm »
There are two reasons for this:
1. High fees.
2. Centralization.

Doesn't make sense. These are not the reasons the BTS price is low.

The priority is to finish the GUI and implement all the missing features on the GUI level.
The unfinished UI is the main barrier for new users and also the reason we have low volumes on the internal exchange.
When new users arrive the price will recover and when traders start trading there will be profits from transaction fees and an additional reason for the price to rise.

So at this moment it all boils down to having the UI truly ready.

Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 09:55:43 pm »
Guys, I think there is demand from people for lower fees, so I created this to see if it is so.

Demand will be not from people who leave in USA or Europe, but from Chinese and other developing countries.

For USA ten cents is nothing, for others it is barrier.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 09:58:16 pm »

1. Low fees are easy sell, we could subscribe more people. Any working referral program will be good incentive for people.
2. We made mistakes in the past, lowering we fees will not be worse than other decisions. But system will become actually usable by people, not investors.

We had low fees in the past and that didnt help us sell anything.  On the contrary, the blockchain losing money caused most of the community to abandon it, driving the market cap from 100M to 8M. 

We need to MAKE MONEY.  This is what will make bitshares take off. 

When btc had its huge rallies in the past, they drove adoption.  We need bitshares price rises to drive adoption, and for that we need the blockchain to be profitable and thus attractive to investors, and for that we need reasonably costed fees around their current level that are still lower than what you pay for any financial transfer, but high enough to make some money.
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Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 09:58:49 pm »

Doesn't make sense. These are not the reasons the BTS price is low.

The priority is to finish the GUI and implement all the missing features on the GUI level.
The unfinished UI is the main barrier for new users and also the reason we have low volumes on the internal exchange.
When new users arrive the price will recover and when traders start trading there will be profits from transaction fees and an additional reason for the price to rise.

So at this moment it all boils down to having the UI truly ready.

UI is good enough to make transactions and even trade, but now it's too costly
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Offline Ander

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2015, 10:00:37 pm »

Doesn't make sense. These are not the reasons the BTS price is low.

The priority is to finish the GUI and implement all the missing features on the GUI level.
The unfinished UI is the main barrier for new users and also the reason we have low volumes on the internal exchange.
When new users arrive the price will recover and when traders start trading there will be profits from transaction fees and an additional reason for the price to rise.

So at this moment it all boils down to having the UI truly ready.

UI is good enough to make transactions and even trade, but now it's too costly


Have you compared the price against the price of trading at an exchange?  For most of them its 0.2% of the amount you trade. 

If you trade more than .2 btc worth of something, youll be paying more trading on an exchange than in bitshares. 

If you are a member of bitshares, then you pay 80% less, so if you trade more than .04 btc worth at a time you pay less than on an exchange.
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Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2015, 10:14:36 pm »
I see your logic. I'm surprised that so many people understand that system should make money. It's good, I'm glad to be part of this. But I search for people with different view and if there is enough of them - we should make a change.  This people could be quietly selling right now and don't know that they can influence system despite all authority.
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Offline speedy

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RAISE fees on BTS transfers!
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2015, 10:19:57 pm »
It would be better to raise fees on BTS transfers to allow the network to benefit from all those transfers to/from poloniex.

Lets face it all transfers at this point are just to/from an exchange by people who either want out of BitShares altogether or are transferring to their own wallet for the long term. Its not facilitating any real merchant activity at the moment. Either way they wont mind paying a fee of around 50 BTS.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 10:23:39 pm by speedy »

Offline noisy

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2015, 10:26:14 pm »
I agree with pal. In my opinion 10 cents is very high fee. I am from Poland, and for me 10 cents mean probably much more than you might think. Previously I thought about making a giveaway thread for Polish community, but with fee's so high... this doesn't make sense.

I don't agree that this is a reason why price of bitshares dropped, but eventually I think high fees will make this continue. Right now bitshares network makes a profit. And you know what? THIS IS NOT TIME FOR A PROFIT! At the beginning of each company there is an investment process. First.. .the owner need to put some money (or time) on the table, to buy/produce some product... the profit sometime is not yet there.

Could you told me, when Facebook and Twitter started making profit? Not in the early stages... and right now bitshares is in the early stage!

We as a community are investors in bitshares. If we are truly long term investors... quick profit should not be so important to us. Right now we should focus, to provide the best experience for customers. Just like that. Fees needs to me low, very low!

Quote
Have you compared the price against the price of trading at an exchange?  For most of them its 0.2% of the amount you trade. 

If you trade more than .2 btc worth of something, youll be paying more trading on an exchange than in bitshares. 

If you are a member of bitshares, then you pay 80% less, so if you trade more than .04 btc worth at a time you pay less than on an exchange.

This is not true.. because you are not taking into consideration, that right now there is no liquidity in bitassets exchanges. The true cost of operation " Buy 1 bitUSD and immediately sell 1 bitUSD" is far beyond acceptance.

We should vote for lower fees!
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline noisy

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2015, 10:32:58 pm »
I never thought I would use arguments like that... but you all probably see "The Social Network" Movie. Do you remember the scene with Sean Parker?

"Hey, you know what? Settle an argument for us. I say it's time to start making money from The Facebook.. "

Take a look: https://youtu.be/dU6scly2AFU?t=1m17s

Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv