Author Topic: Witness pay in BitShares 2.0  (Read 2785 times)

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Offline tbone

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Re: Witness pay in BitShares 2.0
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2015, 01:44:24 pm »
Why would any witnesses be overly concerned with their level of profitability at this early juncture when we're trying to get the system up and running?  Wouldn't they be more concerned with establishing themselves as good, reliable witnesses so they will be in a position to profit handsomely in the not-too-distant future? 

As for the specific issue of the feed publishing fees, ultimately these are going to be a very small cost relative to witness income, no?

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: Witness pay in BitShares 2.0
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2015, 02:08:08 pm »
Why would any witnesses be overly concerned with their level of profitability at this early juncture when we're trying to get the system up and running?  Wouldn't they be more concerned with establishing themselves as good, reliable witnesses so they will be in a position to profit handsomely in the not-too-distant future? 

As for the specific issue of the feed publishing fees, ultimately these are going to be a very small cost relative to witness income, no?

they currently account for roughly 34% of total income for a witness at the current rate of updates that witnesses update... which is not as much as it should be as this thread has said.

You want witnesses to profit because otherwise they are going to cut corners an be susceptible to other influences.
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Offline puppies

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Re: Witness pay in BitShares 2.0
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2015, 04:24:09 pm »
Private Bitassets have feeds too.  All ops need fees to prevent spam.

This is not a valid concern, unless you are worried about witnesses spamming the network, as only voted in witnesses can publish feeds.

I say eliminate the feed fees completely. It's easy to monitor the feed publish frequency, and if a witness starts to update so often it is considered DoS they are harming rather than helping the ecosystem and should be voted out, just as if they miss too many blocks.

Please explain why you wish to increase your feed publish rate so much puppies. It's not like you're the only one publishing prices. Plus, most are getting their info from the same source and right now most are processing that info with the same algorithm, so it is highly redundant to increase your feeds. On average we publish feeds every 2 minutes.

How often does the input info change? Does yahoo publish in real time what the market is doing?

Yahoo really isn't the source I'm worried about.  As far as I know they are only used to get fiat and commodity prices.  I'm less worried about the current yen dollar ratio or the current price of silver.  If greater concern is the USD price of Btc and the Btc price of bts.  These can change rapidly. 

Even though someone is publishing a feed every 2 minutes we use the mean of all published feeds to determine the Blockchain feed price.  We are not simply using the last published feed.   So if the price changes 10% in ten minutes it will still take us an hour to fully adjust, and almost as long to even get close. 

If everyone else feels that an hours lag is acceptable then I am fine with it, but I know we could do better.
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Offline Thom

Re: Witness pay in BitShares 2.0
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2015, 06:54:04 pm »
Private Bitassets have feeds too.  All ops need fees to prevent spam.

This is not a valid concern, unless you are worried about witnesses spamming the network, as only voted in witnesses can publish feeds.

I say eliminate the feed fees completely. It's easy to monitor the feed publish frequency, and if a witness starts to update so often it is considered DoS they are harming rather than helping the ecosystem and should be voted out, just as if they miss too many blocks.

Please explain why you wish to increase your feed publish rate so much puppies. It's not like you're the only one publishing prices. Plus, most are getting their info from the same source and right now most are processing that info with the same algorithm, so it is highly redundant to increase your feeds. On average we publish feeds every 2 minutes.

How often does the input info change? Does yahoo publish in real time what the market is doing?

Yahoo really isn't the source I'm worried about.  As far as I know they are only used to get fiat and commodity prices.  I'm less worried about the current yen dollar ratio or the current price of silver.  If greater concern is the USD price of Btc and the Btc price of bts.  These can change rapidly. 

Even though someone is publishing a feed every 2 minutes we use the mean of all published feeds to determine the Blockchain feed price.  We are not simply using the last published feed.   So if the price changes 10% in ten minutes it will still take us an hour to fully adjust, and almost as long to even get close. 

If everyone else feels that an hours lag is acceptable then I am fine with it, but I know we could do better.

First BM set me straight in today's mumble regarding the non-exclusivity of witnesses being able to publish feeds, so spamming can be an issue. That being the case the obvious way to combat that is raise witness pay to compensate, so that feed fees effectively are zero cost to witnesses.

Some may say they already are, if witnesses are willing to accept less pay. Of course, but THAT is essentially asking witnesses to work for free, and that is not good for several reasons.

One thing that isn't discussed too much on this topic is server costs. That actually has a fair amount of variability, and is also up to each witness to establish for themselves, not only with their choice of VPS providers but also how many nodes to setup. How are witnesses supposed to make such decisions if they can't reliably determine their net pay? The costs are determinant, but withdrawal vesting and bugs there is a certain level of uncertainty.

I need to decide before 11/2/2015 if I will renew some of my seed node VPS servers, since they are billed monthly. Other seed nodes I use are billed hourly so they can be managed basically in real time. Those VPS providers charge more than the smaller, monthly based providers do. Diversity in geolocations is important but so is diversity in providers.

In general I don't feel these issues are discussed nearly enough. That was true in 1.0 and I believe it is still true in 2.0.

Another issue not discussed very much is reputation vs. real work identity. I just watched a video that addresses that head on and is worth watching, I strongly encourage it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZzXEa9kpnE. That video makes a strong case that tying real world identities to online identities is not necessary to establish a reliable and trustworthy reputation, a position I completely agree with. That's one reason I do not support Identibit, tho I do recognize their right to develop a blockchain that is so contrary to the core values BitShares was built on. It's a classic example of a dilemma.

Getting back to witness pay and feed fees. @puppies - if the published feed prices are aggregated as you indicate doesn't that reduce the impact of your feed rate? Moreover, you didn't really address the source of feeds issue I raised directly, tho you did indirectly by saying your focus and concern is not on the mainstream markets but rather crypto markets, namely the BTC | BTS market. That is a good point, b/c those markets are open 24/7/365. Even so, how often does the source change? Although there may be a lag, it is definitely more of a real time source of data. In that respect your point of a 1 hour update period due to the way feeds are aggregated which is built into (the wallet / openledger?) is clearly a valid concern, tho I'm not sure increasing your feed frequency is the best way to address it, or even that it is an effective means to address it. 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 06:57:51 pm by Thom »
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