Author Topic: Lets vote for lower fees!  (Read 7368 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2015, 04:35:39 am »
@MarketingMonk

You try to attract new users from countries there already good financial system (USA, Western Europe), while we could provide free banking for the world. Current fees isolate system in one region. This cutting off China, Eastern Europe, Russia, Greece, Argentina, Africa and others.

Doesn't it make more sense to try to attract whales then people who can't even afford to use Bitshares? Attract the whales early on and let Bitcoin focus on keeping itself cheap so people in the developing world can use it as a currency.

Bitshares always seemed to be marketed to people who have money or who are in the developed world. Bitshares was always about crowdfunding, stocks, bonds, etc.

If you are a high net worth individual I doubt you care about the fees. You probably worry more about the taxes than the fees and the fact that Bitshares 2.0 is a lot lower tax, is what makes up for the fees. When you spend Bitcoin you have to pay capital gains and other weird taxes with every transaction. With Bitshares you would at most only have to pay the tax on the underlying BTS price.

But with BitUSD and other instruments you could have the taxes more easier managed than with Bitcoin. Bitcoin goes to $1000? You pay capital gains when you spend your Bitcoins. BTS goes to $1? You spend BitUSD and you pay capital gains, but if you cash out you pay income taxes.






« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 04:39:05 am by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline fav

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2015, 06:54:29 am »
20 BTS / 4 bts are fine and helping us grow.

I'm not supporting this.

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
    • View Profile
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2015, 07:02:56 am »
we could provide free banking for the world. 

This is not a free project. We are still paying for the development and maintenance of BitShares. A lot of people have put a good deal of hard work and money into developing this. We all have hopes that it can be widely used to make peoples' lives better in the developing world. But we can't suddenly hand it out for free any more than a company that's developed an HIV vaccine can ignore all the costs it has spent developing the medicine. Now it may not be as cheap as you'd like, but I don't think BitShares is gouging anybody either. In time, as with any new product that needs to develop scale, the costs should come down naturally.

Offline BTSdac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: K1
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2015, 01:03:37 pm »
I disagree with reducing fees for two main reasons:

1) It makes the referral program a lot less interesting if you dont expect the users you bring in to generate much of any fees.  So then it will fail.

2) A big reason why the BTS price has been trending down for a year is that the supply is increasing, that is, the blockchain is operating at a loss instead of being profitable.  As soon as we can demonstrate a blockchain making a profit over a reasonable period of time, even a small profit, it will attract a lot of attention.  Everyone is used to inflating blockchains that hemmorhage money (through PoW or whatever), but if you change that around and are actually making a profit, then a lot of investors will want to jump on board.  And helping the price break its downtrend is going to help adopting a LOT, because a major inhibitor to adoption right now is that everyone who buys in loses money and gets disillusioned.



Enough fees to turn a profit is the savior of BTS.

The fees for subscribers being 2 cents instead of .5 cent is not going to significantly impact our adoption.

The reason the price dropped is beacuse a bunch of peopel who had bought BTS prior to release but dont actually care about it long term all dumped it.  That had nothing at all to do with what the fee is.


I strongly encourage everyone to vote against lowering the fee.
Disagree with you
1. I do not oppose referral program, but there is no conflict between referral program and low transfer fee,  I don`t understand why transfer is higher than exchange fee , 
also there are different fee ( transfer fee, exchange ), is it reasonable , why transfer is 20BTS but exchang fee is any 5bts.  and I think transfer should been lower than exchange fee
about fee I have some thinking
transfer fee : transfer is an equal in value  of input and output ,  it is also a basic service supply by bts network ,  so it should pay the lowest fee
exchange fee : exchange is not an equal in value of input and output ,  people exchange would lost/get profit. in other words ,the purpose of exchange is to get profit, so most of them ignore the fee, because they can get hundreds of times profit than fee ,if they buy/sell at right price .   in other , exchange is a higher service than transfer, I think,  so the fee is higher than transfer fee is reasonable
borrow/close  fee :  because it is leverage trading, people would lost/get more profit , so the fee should higher than exchange fee
so I think the fee should   transfer fee <exchange fee<borrow/close  fee

bond exchange would charge higher fee , it can support referral program.
2. the big reason why price has been trending down for a year is not the supply increasing , people can accept supply increasing but cannot accept supply increasing unreasonably , eg, Max supply change , the biggest harm is Max supply from 2B to 3.7B, it is old thing  but now we restart now.
the reason of  price trending is not the sell of increased bts , it is influence of supply increasing . also the bad thing is not higher fee , it is influence of high fee .
 I believe bts is a system that can get profit in furniture, I don`t think bts make profit now is a good thing,  a  successful business cannot get profit when it most but have profit perspective.
if bts charge high fee ,it would block people join bts.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 01:07:03 pm by BTSdac »
github.com :pureland
BTS2.0 API :ws://139.196.37.179:8091
BTS2.0 API 数据源ws://139.196.37.179:8091

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2821
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2015, 01:53:28 pm »
low fee for transfer and trading, others can higher, especially the register fee

Offline xiahui135

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2015, 01:58:57 pm »
low fee for transfer and trading, others can higher, especially the register fee
I also think the trade fee need to divide into 2 part.
Palce and cancel order need to be very very cheap, and trade success need to be charge a higher fee (such as 0.05%, still lower than the centered exchanges).

This can get more fee than now.

Offline Moon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2015, 02:12:27 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable

Offline Akado

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2752
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: akado
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2015, 02:15:37 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable

lol 0.1? You there are two and a half billion coins. We definetely need to reduce fees on placing orders, but that's ridicously low. You think the fees will make you poor or what? Make it between 1 and 5 BTS
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline freedom

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • View Profile
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2015, 02:17:40 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable
+5%
20 BTS is too high.I don't want to use the system, it's too expensive.

Offline Akado

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2752
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: akado
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2015, 02:21:24 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable
+5%
20 BTS is too high.I don't want to use the system, it's too expensive.

But it definitely doesn't need to be 0.1 might as well make it for free lol
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2821
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2015, 02:25:57 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable

lol 0.1? You there are two and a half billion coins. We definetely need to reduce fees on placing orders, but that's ridicously low. You think the fees will make you poor or what? Make it between 1 and 5 BTS
yes, I chose 1 BTS.

Offline Moon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2015, 02:26:21 pm »
OK,

now 1 bts ? bm  will not be happy

Offline BTSdac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: K1
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2015, 02:48:18 pm »
low fee for transfer and trading, others can higher, especially the register fee
low fee for transfer and trading, others can higher, especially the register fee
high trading fee increase cost of market maker,
but market maker can become life time member to reduce fee by 80%
and register is a basic service for user , so also should been low fee
bond fee can high ,because boud participant is highrisk participant, they can get/lose more , so they do net care fee!
github.com :pureland
BTS2.0 API :ws://139.196.37.179:8091
BTS2.0 API 数据源ws://139.196.37.179:8091

Offline Empirical1.2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
    • View Profile
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2015, 02:48:40 pm »
1 BTS is too cheap. $0.004. Even 1 000 000 users doing 1 transfer a day would be $120 000 monthly and only $24 000 for BTS.
 
However a flat fee system is incorrect imo especially while the BTS network has the capacity for more transactions.

A system with X capacity is a bit like a hotel I guess. You want to get the most money for your bedrooms at peak times but you also don't want empty beds if you're already paying for the running cost of the hotel anyway. 

So I still think something like 0.1% with a minimum of $0.01 and maximum of $0.1/$0.2 would be better.

1 million users doing a transaction a day at $0.05 on average is $1.5 million a month, and $250 000 for BTS, so it's certainly worth targetting the low transaction size (but not micro-transaction) market that we might miss out on. While still getting the $0.1 to $0.2 fee from the higher size transaction market.
If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline mindphlux

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 232
    • View Profile
Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2015, 04:16:35 pm »
I would disagree to lower the fees at this point. The referral program has not even started, and it requires a substantial portion of the fees to make a meaningful contribution to actually work.

The fee right of this moment is 8 us cents, and a lifetime membership upgrade is 41 USD, which lowers the fee to 1.6 cents, which is very reasonable.

Each transaction brings 6.4 cents to the referral market
1.6 cents are being burned OR are put into the worker fund (when the fund is not full)

That means each transaction FUNDS our software developers so they can continue to enhance our platform and make things better and easier to use.


Decentralized marketeers are waiting for the referral program to launch, it has not even started, so why would you want to kill the referral market before it has even launched?? 6.4 cent for each transaction is a PRETTY GOOD DAMN argument to bring in new users. That's alot of money right here on the table.

However, I would suggest to lower the fees for smaller transactions. It does not make sense to charge 20BTS for a 100BTS fee, a small %-fee would be more suitable here.

Let's put this fee into comparison of what I'm paying to my banks here in Germany:

I'm paying 5 Euros per month flat for my personal bank account, and doing maybe 25 transactions a month, this equals a 0.20 euro/tx fee.

I'm paying 20 euros flat for my corporate bank account, plus 5 cents per transactions and I'm doing roughly 30 transactions here per month. This equals 0.73 Euro/tx fee.

Now compare this to the BTS fees. We're not trying to compete with Bitcoin (which has 3-4 cents fees!) or any other cryptocurrency but we're trying to compete with creditcards, bank accounts, stock portfolio accounts etc. I think we're VERY competitive when you compare us to dwolla, paypal and any other bank. This is what counts!



My 2BTS.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 04:24:43 pm by mindphlux »
Please consider voting for my witness mindphlux.witness and my committee user mindphlux. I will not vote for changes that affect witness pay.