Author Topic: Lets vote for lower fees!  (Read 7360 times)

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Offline spartako

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2015, 04:29:20 pm »
I would disagree to lower the fees at this point. The referral program has not even started, and it requires a substantial portion of the fees to make a meaningful contribution to actually work.

The fee right of this moment is 8 us cents, and a lifetime membership upgrade is 41 USD, which lowers the fee to 1.6 cents, which is very reasonable.

Each transaction brings 6.4 cents to the referral market
1.6 cents are being burned OR are put into the worker fund (when the fund is not full)

That means each transaction FUNDS our software developers so they can continue to enhance our platform and make things better and easier to use.


Decentralized marketeers are waiting for the referral program to launch, it has not even started, so why would you want to kill the referral market before it has even launched?? 6.4 cent for each transaction is a PRETTY GOOD DAMN argument to bring in new users. That's alot of money right here on the table.

However, I would suggest to lower the fees for smaller transactions. It does not make sense to charge 20BTS for a 100BTS fee, a small %-fee would be more suitable here.

Let's put this fee into comparison of what I'm paying to my banks here in Germany:

I'm paying 5 Euros per month flat for my personal bank account, and doing maybe 25 transactions a month, this equals a 0.20 euro/tx fee.

I'm paying 20 euros flat for my corporate bank account, plus 5 cents per transactions and I'm doing roughly 30 transactions here per month. This equals 0.73 Euro/tx fee.

Now compare this to the BTS fees. We're not trying to compete with Bitcoin (which has 3-4 cents fees!) or any other cryptocurrency but we're trying to compete with creditcards, bank accounts, stock portfolio accounts etc. I think we're VERY competitive when you compare us to dwolla, paypal and any other bank. This is what counts!



My 2BTS.

 +5%
We can set 5BTS for "small" transaction and I'm ok with the current system
wallet_account_set_approval spartako

Offline alt

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2015, 12:40:21 am »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.

Offline Saleh

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2015, 10:06:42 am »
 +5%
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
PTS:PdgL56dBh5fhL3qfk8BMEYEpUQcqGDHKhj
BTSX:bitcoiner

Offline ElMato

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2015, 10:19:10 am »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers

jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2015, 10:33:35 am »
I think we should keep the fees as they are.

It's not fair to compare our fees to bitcoin and other crypto - we offer a price stable crypto-currency free of counterparty risk. This is absolutely unique in the crypto world and as long as we are not forced to lower the fees by competition offering a comparable product, we should take advantage of this situation and keep the prices as they are. If you want to compare our prices with other crypto do it thoroughly: include all conversion costs and the counterparty risk.

In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
This is not fair, either. You perceive it as free but actually you pay for it but the cost is hidden in other products' prices (or you pay for it by being exposed to advertising but the end result is the same, the customer eventually pays for it).
Transferring money has its cost and there is no such thing as free service in this business.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 10:38:32 am by jakub »

Offline Moon

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2015, 10:37:09 am »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers


I agree

jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2015, 10:43:45 am »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers


I agree

You agree to what? That money can be transferred for free?
This is not true. You pay for it but refuse to realize it.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2015, 12:11:23 pm »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers


I agree

You agree to what? That money can be transferred for free?
This is not true. You pay for it but refuse to realize it.

Jakub why do you think BTC is going up right now? A lot of people are pointing to increased capital controls in China.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/capital-controls-blowback-bitcoin-surges-back-pre-china-currency-wars-levels

Do you know Argentina is one of if not the most lucrative BitAsset markets because of capital controls and  USD demand?

These countries are the BitAsset target markets.

If they say the fees are too high we need to listen.

I understand that we can't target the micro-transaction market, or please everyone and though I don't know how complicated it is, I do believe we need a percentage based system with a minimum fee of $0.01 or $0.02.

It's not fair to compare our fees to bitcoin and other crypto - we offer a price stable crypto-currency free of counterparty risk. This is absolutely unique in the crypto world and as long as we are not forced to lower the fees by competition offering a comparable product, we should take advantage of this situation and keep the prices as they are. If you want to compare our prices with other crypto do it thoroughly: include all conversion costs and the counterparty risk.

No we don't, we have a relatively new, risky, complicated product that is not particularly liquid with very limited third party support. 
(So we're not competing with PayPal or online use of debit cards at this stage as some are suggesting.)

The key target markets that could be motivated to try it at this stage are places like Argentina, Greece, China etc.

Those lower fees based on a percentage system could still make the referral programme lucrative in lower income countries. While we will presumably be doing higher size transactions on average so Westerners referral programme will not be affected. If the system becomes so popular that we don't have the capacity to support smaller transaction sizes, then it can be addressed.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 12:17:15 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline liondani

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2015, 12:40:18 pm »
I do believe we need a percentage based system with a minimum fee of $0.01 or $0.02.

 +5% +5% +5%

PS and a MAX fee (a cap)

Offline fav

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2015, 12:44:43 pm »
some thoughts,

BitShares is not a currency - don't touch the current fee system.

however, make our currency cheaper - some %based fee would be okay in my opinion.

Offline freedom

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2015, 03:48:50 pm »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.

 +5% +5% +5%
We should charge the value added service, not the basic service.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 03:51:41 pm by free »

jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2015, 04:08:09 pm »
Do you know Argentina is one of if not the most lucrative BitAsset markets because of capital controls and  USD demand?
These countries are the BitAsset target markets.
If they say the fees are too high we need to listen.
The key target markets that could be motivated to try it at this stage are places like Argentina, Greece, China etc.

Yes, these countries are the BitAsset target markets after we make the BitAssets actually work, i.e. there is a liquid market with low spreads allowing users to exchange BitAssets back and forth with fiat. Until that happens we don't have a working product to sell and discussing lowering its price is premature for me.

And who will make BitAssets liquid? Is it the low volume users from South Amercia, Asia or Africa or is it the high volume traders with lots of cash to play with? I bet it's the traders, so it's definitely them we need to satisfy at this initial stage. And from my understanding it's the unfinished GUI and unstable market rules that make them unhappy, not the fees.

If the traders start complaining that the fees are too high - then we should reconsider. But arguing that people in lower-income countries are not using BTS because the fees are too high does not make sense to me. I think they are not using BTS because the product doesn't work yet in the first place.

Also, apart from traders there is a second group of users we should care about: the merchants. The consumers are not really sensitive to transaction fees (assuming an average consumer makes a couple of online transactions a month). It's the merchant who is sensitive to the price as currently s/he needs to sacrifice about 2% of their turnover just to be able to receive payments. So from the merchant's point of view BTS should be significantly cheaper and this is our key customer. Also, a generous referral program (and it can only be generous if we keep the fees as they are) is an attractive option that we can offer to the merchants but our competition (PayPal & debit cards) cannot. It's our unique selling point.

To summarize: at this initial stage we should only care about traders and merchants. Ordinary users complaining about transaction fees are irrelevant.

No we don't, we have a relatively new, risky, complicated product that is not particularly liquid with very limited third party support. 
(So we're not competing with PayPal or online use of debit cards at this stage as some are suggesting.)
Yes, our product is currently far less user-friendly and more risky that PayPal and debit cards.
But for me a better strategy is to upgrade the product (by concentrating all efforts to make BitAssets liquid) than to admit our product is far worse and lower its price.

I understand that we can't target the micro-transaction market, or please everyone and though I don't know how complicated it is, I do believe we need a percentage based system with a minimum fee of $0.01 or $0.02.
I agree that a percentage-based system would make sense but as it requires a hard fork I'd agree with BM that at this stage there are other things with higher priorities than that.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 04:15:27 pm by jakub »

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2015, 05:12:09 pm »
... I think they are not using BTS because the product doesn't work yet in the first place.
...our product is far worse.

Over-charging for an inferior product that doesn't work, is not an effective strategy for any new business that I am aware of.

If the traders start complaining that the fees are too high - then we should reconsider.
Also, apart from traders there is a second group of users we should care about: the merchants. The consumers are not really sensitive to transaction fees (assuming an average consumer makes a couple of online transactions a month). It's the merchant who is sensitive to the price as currently s/he needs to sacrifice about 2% of their turnover just to be able to receive payments. So from the merchant's point of view BTS should be significantly cheaper and this is our key customer. Also, a generous referral program (and it can only be generous if we keep the fees as they are) is an attractive option that we can offer to the merchants but our competition (PayPal & debit cards) cannot. It's our unique selling point.


Traders are complaining. It looks like we need to lower fees for orders that are cancelled/not matched.
I agree merchants are key and we need to be able to undercut BitPay's 1% service fee while offering the referral programme.

The referral programme can still be as generous with a percentage based system in fact it may be FAR more lucrative with the right pricing strategy.

Quote
An analytical, data-driven pricing approach can help you:

- Optimize your pricing
- Identify pricing leaks and areas of opportunity
- Apply price discounting where it yields the highest return
- Achieve higher margins
- Sell more product
- Increase the value of your company
- Improve your profitability

By looking into the variables that influence customers’ value perception, one can determine...

- What your small customers should be paying
- Where your large customers are likely to be flexible
- Which products can support premium prices and which need to be competitive
- Whether discounts in certain areas can help you boost sales volume
- How much you can gain by implementing your new pricing structure.


I understand that we can't target the micro-transaction market, or please everyone and though I don't know how complicated it is, I do believe we need a percentage based system with a minimum fee of $0.01 or $0.02.
I agree that a percentage-based system would make sense but as it requires a hard fork I'd agree with BM that at this stage there are other things with higher priorities than that.

I think it's fairly high priority, given the current feedback.






If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2015, 05:36:22 pm »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers
In Russia all the same. It would be difficult to average people to grasp why they would have to pay the fees.

So we should hide the fee? Maybe wallet provider could help. He could set low fee for transfers, but for trading would be required lifetime membership purchased. Many apps monetize this way in AppStore.

We don't pay for facebook or google every time we use it (directly), because we are the product they sell us to advertisers. It is good model, BUT bitshares not mature enough for this. Right now we don't have a lot of options except make fees lower.
Become Lifetime Member:
https://bitshares.openledger.info?r=pal

jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2015, 06:11:40 pm »
In Russia all the same. It would be difficult to average people to grasp why they would have to pay the fees.

And tell me, how many times a month do "average people" make online payments? 4? Maybe 5? Does it really matter how much you pay as long as it is in total less than a bus ticket?

The point is the fees do not matter for an average BTS user.
They matter only for heavy users and those are merchants and traders, not "average people".

When you decide your pricing strategy you need to know who your customer is. Basically there are three categories: the traders, the merchants, and "average people". The only price sensitive group out of these three are the traders, not "average people". So if you think about it, lowering the fees is a meaningless exercise that will do nothing (at this moment) but undermine our profitability.  Only if the traders start complaining it we should lower the market orders fees, but not the transaction fees for transferring money.