Author Topic: Reallocating pay and working on MUSIC  (Read 4174 times)

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Offline fuzzy

So wait. Did we just lose one of our lead developers? And did one of our (ex) lead developers just call our main advantage over other crypto-startups 'a hack', and a lose-lose?

 :o

DPoS' future will be a political one.   I am glad to see Toast reaching out to let people know what's going on.
Not sure what was meant by delegates being called a hack though.  If we don't have elected delegates we have ripple... which is worse.

See this is the problem. DPOS is a consensus protocol, DPOS is not the idea of inflating to pay for work. By conflating the two you've made both ideas worse. We could have DPOS and paid workers where it gets political. Of course we should have elected delegates for consensus. And of course we should direct inflation towards useful goals.

*Delegate(d)* proof of stake = DPOS

Let's summarize real quick here: 
Proof of Work (POW) = Consensus Algorithm. It also pays the miners.  It is not neutral...it pays people who waste funds and gives no choice to the holders of the token.  These people collude with big businesses to ensure noone else can get mining equipment as quickly as they do and help to ensure barriers to entry for mining remain high.

Proof of Stake (POS) = Consensus Algorithm.  It also pays those with the tokens in proportion to ownership in that token.  If you invest in a Proof of Stake token and want to have any say in how to grow your ecosystem...you have to build your own infrastructure for voting, or you have to personally buy a huge stake and use the funds you "mint" to pay for it.  Slightly better, but requires even more community organization than DPOS. 

Delegated Proof of Stake (DPos) = Consensus Algorithm. It also pays Delegates, who must be voted in/voted out.  Voting is baked into the cake.  Though much of the current infrastructure to help with polling and data collection is not implemented (yet)...it does give people the ability to go into the wallet and vote for people they want to vote for--regardless of stake. 

And all of this isn't even talking about scalability...


Not sure how this is conflating.   Please further explain.
In my eyes the payment mechanism of DPOS inflating is not necessarily a bad thing.  Lump sum escrow for contracts might not be a bad thing either. ..but the community  can vote on delegates that send funds into an escrow pool for contracts...if that is what the community consensus is.   

The problem, toast, is that I am a forum lurker who reads pretty much everything I can on here...and I haven't seen your proposal.  This to me points to a lack in communication for which you are just as responsible as anyone else.  I don't say this to be a dick...I say it because you need to hear it.  Whether or not you will listen is up to you.  But if you think your problems with communication will cease by working on MUSIC instead of BitShares, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but they will only follow you.

Finally I know this is emotional and things are obviously going on that we don't know about or really understand, but please try to chill out.  There are no enemies here...only people who want to communicate with you--and Help You for God's Sake!  No communication when there are problems = kicking the can down the road.  No communication never ever ends well for either party involved. 

When there code is buggy...do you simply say "oh I'll just hold off on that and ignore it...it will fix itself"?
The answer is a giant no...because if you do that and keep working on other things, that error is going to either completely halt your progress or cause a bunch of other bugs that require more work in the long run.  It causes a snowball effect.  So communicate the way you code and work out the shitty, gritty details.  Yes it will suck...but in the end you will have a tried and true perspective and you will have far more friends.  Or at the very least, the friends you will have will be tried and true...and real.

*P.S.  You do plenty for your delegate position.  I still see no reason why you shouldn't be paid for what you do.  It is absolutely insane to ask you to work free of charge on things that directly help BTS in the long run.  Imho...don't listen to the people who complain about it.*
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 03:23:33 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline fuzzy

So wait. Did we just lose one of our lead developers? And did one of our (ex) lead developers just call our main advantage over other crypto-startups 'a hack', and a lose-lose?

 :o

No and no, don't freak out yet

I'll still be doing the same work as before, if you look carefully you'll see I haven't been doing "core development" for a long time but have been working on integrations and support and stuff like that. I'll still do that for free, I just don't want to be paid by the DAC if I can't prove my work.

 Our main advantage of using approval voting to direct inflation is awesome and not a hack, the hack part is where we randomly made up an inflation schedule in like 30 seconds and then the community politicized it and starting thinking of 1 delegate = 1 human. I've been begging to make proposals a priority for months so we can start better self-governance.

We have delegates hangouts for this reason.  Better self governance.  In fact we've been doing them for months now! 
Communication with the shareholders is essential for this.   :)
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline toast

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apparently this is "PR sensitive" so I'm hiding it here in forum management for now
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline Frodo

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Also, I think we need as few paid delegates as possible. Paid delegates are a hack, they break the "pure" DPOS incentives and are almost guaranteed to be a bad trade for either the dev or the DAC.

Agreed. I never really liked the concept of paid delegates that also sign blocks. But this has been discussed extensively and it certainly has benefits to keep the system with this simple approach. And as this is currently the only way to pay for development I don't see how we could reduce paid delegates without hurting us.

I want to use what's left of my "bonus" runway (after taxes and bter hack) on a few BTS projects to experiment to see how things would work if we didn't have to use delegate pay but instead a conditional escrowed lump sum. More on this later.

That would be very intersting indeed.

Offline toast

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So wait. Did we just lose one of our lead developers? And did one of our (ex) lead developers just call our main advantage over other crypto-startups 'a hack', and a lose-lose?

 :o

DPoS' future will be a political one.   I am glad to see Toast reaching out to let people know what's going on.
Not sure what was meant by delegates being called a hack though.  If we don't have elected delegates we have ripple... which is worse.

See this is the problem. DPOS is a consensus protocol, DPOS is not the idea of inflating to pay for work. By conflating the two you've made both ideas worse. We could have DPOS and paid workers where it gets political. Of course we should have elected delegates for consensus. And of course we should direct inflation towards useful goals.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline gamey

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So wait. Did we just lose one of our lead developers? And did one of our (ex) lead developers just call our main advantage over other crypto-startups 'a hack', and a lose-lose?

 :o

THe Delegate system takes out free market incentives.  I kept expecting people to say they'd take pay X in bitUSD.  Never happened.  There is no market that isn't binary and thus shit... The % pay isn't voted on and is committed to once people put up the large upfront free.

It isn't lose-lose, it is win-lose/lose-win, just not much win-win but never lose-lose...

and it has been called a hack for some time.. I don't think anyone ever really thought otherwise who read and conversed in the forums.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline fuzzy

So wait. Did we just lose one of our lead developers? And did one of our (ex) lead developers just call our main advantage over other crypto-startups 'a hack', and a lose-lose?

 :o

DPoS' future will be a political one.   I am glad to see Toast reaching out to let people know what's going on.
Not sure what was meant by delegates being called a hack though.  If we don't have elected delegates we have ripple... which is worse.

WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline cass

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Offline toast

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So wait. Did we just lose one of our lead developers? And did one of our (ex) lead developers just call our main advantage over other crypto-startups 'a hack', and a lose-lose?

 :o

No and no, don't freak out yet

I'll still be doing the same work as before, if you look carefully you'll see I haven't been doing "core development" for a long time but have been working on integrations and support and stuff like that. I'll still do that for free, I just don't want to be paid by the DAC if I can't prove my work.

 Our main advantage of using approval voting to direct inflation is awesome and not a hack, the hack part is where we randomly made up an inflation schedule in like 30 seconds and then the community politicized it and starting thinking of 1 delegate = 1 human. I've been begging to make proposals a priority for months so we can start better self-governance.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline cass

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 +5%

pls join our slack group for creating infographics ... !
PMed you via skype

And THANK you much for your trust in my work!!!!!
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Offline fluxer555

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So wait. Did we just lose one of our lead developers? And did one of our (ex) lead developers just call our main advantage over other crypto-startups 'a hack', and a lose-lose?

 :o

Offline vlight

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Also, I think we need as few paid delegates as possible. Paid delegates are a hack, they break the "pure" DPOS incentives and are almost guaranteed to be a bad trade for either the dev or the DAC.

lol

Offline yellowecho

Sounds good- looking forward to hearing more  8)
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Offline toast

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Also, I think we need as few paid delegates as possible. Paid delegates are a hack, they break the "pure" DPOS incentives and are almost guaranteed to be a bad trade for either the dev or the DAC.   edit: NO I don't meant elected delegates are a hack and NO I don't mean directing inflation towards useful goals is a hack. I'm saying mixing the consensus algorithm and the governance model leads to bad results.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 06:57:42 pm by toast »
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Offline toast

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Some of you may have noticed a lull in activity on the bitshares repo. I've been working on stuff for Music (under NDA) and also stuff for our closed-source trading bots. Seeing as neither of these benefit the main BTS chain directly and I can't keep a public log, I decided to stop taking delegate pay and instead split the income from my delegate 50/50 between Cass and Valentine (both taking massive risk for tiny pay), starting immediately.

I want to use what's left of my "bonus" runway (after taxes and bter hack) on a few BTS projects to experiment to see how things would work if we didn't have to use delegate pay but instead a conditional escrowed lump sum. More on this later.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 06:05:23 pm by toast »
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.