Author Topic: dele-puppy as temporary committee member  (Read 9249 times)

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Offline puppies

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I don't think high fees are hurting our adoption.  I also don't think high fees have helped our adoption.

If it was up to me I would probably set all fees to their default except for account_creation fee, which I would set to 90, and all per KB which I would raise substantially. 

This would mean 20bts transfer 10k bts LTM.  I think that doubling the fees when our price tanked was not a good idea.

I am of course willing to consider other options and ideas.
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Offline fav

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what's your stance on the ongoing fee debate? are you for or against lowering?

Offline roadscape

[
It would be great to have proposals stay in the core for now! Are there any other objects that are purged that we should keep around? (workers, etc)

Your site is giving out useful insights into the blockchain.  Is it possible to add the ability to store expired proposals while the devs are implementing a proposal history in the core?

Yes! I will add this before 1.10.10 expires, I think it's high priority
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Offline cube

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It's always been our intent to transition responsibility for proposals from the init witnesses to the community.  Two conditions are necessary for this to happen:

  • We need to be running a production network long enough to be confident that we won't wish we had the capability to do swift parameter changes to mitigate potentially catastrophic issues.
  • We need a good proposal UI which allows users and committee members to create and inspect committee proposals and vote accordingly.

Right now I think a good GUI for committee proposals needs to be implemented before BitShares is truly ready for self-governance.  But it's still great to see the community experimenting with this feature even though the UI provided by cli_wallet and object inspection leaves much to be desired.

Thanks for giving us a good view of what and how a proposal works.   I am truly excited by this evolution of governance decentralisation.

We can mitigate the two mentioned factors:

1) Having a shorter time to effect a parameter change is fine for the initial phase.  We can always work around this with better communication with the community members.

2) I believe a good proposal UI may not be available any time soon. This can be mitigated.  As BM mentioned in mumble, he encourages Witnesses to step up and become Committee members in the absent of the UI.  Witnesses have the know-how and ability to quickly prepare and submit a proposal to the BTS2 blockchain.  We have active and capable Proxies to communicate the value of the proposal to the community before it is submitted.  Users who support the proposal but unable to do so due to lack of a UI can channel their votes via an active Proxy who votes with the cli wallet on their behalf.

The community has the tool to vote for the changes they need, right now.  It is a dream comes true.   :)


[
It would be great to have proposals stay in the core for now! Are there any other objects that are purged that we should keep around? (workers, etc)

Your site is giving out useful insights into the blockchain.  Is it possible to add the ability to store expired proposals while the devs are implementing a proposal history in the core?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 05:34:28 am by cube »
ID: bitcube
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Offline roadscape

Thanks Cube,

Thats what I figured.  I appreciate your confirmation.  I created a new proposal and voted for it.  This one will expire on 11-1-15 at 12:00 UDT http://cryptofresh.com/p/1.10.10 (great site by the way.  It would be good to backup these proposals so we could look at then after they are expired.  Perhaps in a different section so people don't get confused about what is currently available to vote for)
I think I understand how we get approval from 1.2.0 as well.  get_object 1.2.0 returns
Code: [Select]
    "active": {
      "weight_threshold": 28461,
      "account_auths": [[
          "1.2.1191",
          1224
        ],[ 
          "1.2.22517",
          1750
        ],[ 
          "1.2.90742",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90744",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90746",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90747",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90748",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90749",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90750",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90751",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90752",
          5994
        ]
      ],
weight seems to be based upon total votes, and we need 51% of that vote, or  "weight_threshold": 28461 for approval.  So at this point we will need 5 inits to pass anything, and dele-puppy and mindphlux are after thoughts.  (5 inits are 29970)

You are welcome. :)

Object 1.2.0 is the committee account which consists of all the inits, mindplux and you currently.  The total votes is 56920 and a weight threshold of 28461 means that we need more than 50% participation of the total number of committee members to pass the proposal. 

BTS2 is modelling after how a modern democracy works.   +5%

Good info.. +5%

How do members who don't want this proposal to go through vote against it?

There is no way to vote against a proposal.  You can however revoke a previously granted approval for a proposal with "active_approvals_to_remove".

The 'review_period_time - 2015-10-28T11:00:00' is too soon. (Now is "2015-10-28T03:39:48")  I think we need more time for committee members to review and approve it.  Perhaps give it about 5 days at least?

A proposal has an expiration time and a review period.  No new approvals may be added during the review period, and a committee proposal must have "committee_proposal_review_period" seconds (with get_global_properties, you can see it is currently 3600 seconds, or one hour).  A proposed parameter change will take effect at the next maintenance interval after the review period.

We learned through experience in testnets that it would be wise to launch with a short committee_proposal_review_period and centralized control of a quorum of committee members (i.e., putting all the init accounts in the committee) in order to allow us to react quickly when critical problems arise.  (And we were later glad we did.)

And what's with old proposals being inaccessible? get_object(1.10.1 thru 1.10.8) all return "null".. I think there needs to be an easy way to reference previous changes..

Originally we designed to have Graphene consist of a core, which only tracks what's needed for validation, and plugins, which track any historical data users might be interested in (e.g. account transaction history, market price / volume / order history, chain budget history, old proposals, etc.)  According to the original design, witnesses would only run core, users running local wallets would track account history (but only for their own accounts), wallet providers would track account history for their userbase, etc.  You'd be able to change what you track just by reconfiguring your plugins and re-indexing.

That's the theory, but in practice, as the release date approached and we started to worry more about shipping and less about code purity:

  • We've put some things in core that really ought to be in plugins
  • Plugin configuration is a difficult, undocumented, compile-time process
  • Writing plugins is a difficult, undocumented process, even for core developers

I have a ton of improvements in mind to move code to the place in the architecture it should properly go, and greatly simplify and document the process of creating plugins.  Which should lead to a highly modular, configurable experience for any kind of chain state tracking you want to do.  But I can tell you that it's not likely something I'll get to this week, or next week.  Maybe not even next month.

For now, I can add proposal tracking to core.


It would be great to have proposals stay in the core for now! Are there any other objects that are purged that we should keep around? (workers, etc)

And thanks for the other clarifications.. all VERY useful now that we're trying to figure out how to pilot this thing...
I'll keep updating the interface as I digest this new info.. I agree that GUI for proposals is critical.
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Offline theoretical


It's always been our intent to transition responsibility for proposals from the init witnesses to the community.  Two conditions are necessary for this to happen:

  • We need to be running a production network long enough to be confident that we won't wish we had the capability to do swift parameter changes to mitigate potentially catastrophic issues.
  • We need a good proposal UI which allows users and committee members to create and inspect committee proposals and vote accordingly.

Right now I think a good GUI for committee proposals needs to be implemented before BitShares is truly ready for self-governance.  But it's still great to see the community experimenting with this feature even though the UI provided by cli_wallet and object inspection leaves much to be desired.
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Offline theoretical


There are actually two different layers to what's going on here:  The proposal system, and the chain parameter changes.

The proposal system:  The proposal system is essentially a way to broadcast unsigned or partially signed transactions on the blockchain itself.  You don't need to be a committee member to use proposed transactions; Alice can create a proposed transaction saying "Bob transfers 100 BTS to Alice" and then broadcast it as a proposed transaction; the transaction then doesn't take effect until Bob signs it.

Proposals are intended to make multisig user-friendly, for example, if you have an account X which requires signatures from A, B, and C, you can have anyone propose "I propose X transfers 1,000,000 BTS to Y."  Since the proposal appears on-chain, with suitable wallet support anyone who hasn't signed can get some kind of alert in their wallet advising them a transaction is awaiting their approval.

Once we had proposals implemented (it is general and any operation can be proposed, not just transfers), we created a special operation (committee_member_update_global_parameters_operation) which can only be executed by a special account (the committee account), whose authority is always the set of currently active committee members.  Further committee_member_update_global_parameters_operation can only be executed in a proposal, and any proposals by the committee account have to have a minimum review period as specified in the global_parameters.

The review period is designed as checks and balances to prevent "ninja proposals," i.e. proposals pushed through quickly by the committee without any chance for community input.  If a majority of the committee members collude and vote for a proposal that will harm the network, the BTS holders can vote them out during the review period.  The decision of whether to implement the proposal or not actually happens at its expiration time.  So a committee member's vote won't count if they voted for the proposal and then lost their committee seat before the expiration time.  And a new committee member can't vote for any proposal which is in its review period when he gains his seat; votes can only be added to proposals before the review period.
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Offline theoretical

How do members who don't want this proposal to go through vote against it?

There is no way to vote against a proposal.  You can however revoke a previously granted approval for a proposal with "active_approvals_to_remove".

The 'review_period_time - 2015-10-28T11:00:00' is too soon. (Now is "2015-10-28T03:39:48")  I think we need more time for committee members to review and approve it.  Perhaps give it about 5 days at least?

A proposal has an expiration time and a review period.  No new approvals may be added during the review period, and a committee proposal must have "committee_proposal_review_period" seconds (with get_global_properties, you can see it is currently 3600 seconds, or one hour).  A proposed parameter change will take effect at the next maintenance interval after the review period.

We learned through experience in testnets that it would be wise to launch with a short committee_proposal_review_period and centralized control of a quorum of committee members (i.e., putting all the init accounts in the committee) in order to allow us to react quickly when critical problems arise.  (And we were later glad we did.)

And what's with old proposals being inaccessible? get_object(1.10.1 thru 1.10.8) all return "null".. I think there needs to be an easy way to reference previous changes..

Originally we designed to have Graphene consist of a core, which only tracks what's needed for validation, and plugins, which track any historical data users might be interested in (e.g. account transaction history, market price / volume / order history, chain budget history, old proposals, etc.)  According to the original design, witnesses would only run core, users running local wallets would track account history (but only for their own accounts), wallet providers would track account history for their userbase, etc.  You'd be able to change what you track just by reconfiguring your plugins and re-indexing.

That's the theory, but in practice, as the release date approached and we started to worry more about shipping and less about code purity:

  • We've put some things in core that really ought to be in plugins
  • Plugin configuration is a difficult, undocumented, compile-time process
  • Writing plugins is a difficult, undocumented process, even for core developers

I have a ton of improvements in mind to move code to the place in the architecture it should properly go, and greatly simplify and document the process of creating plugins.  Which should lead to a highly modular, configurable experience for any kind of chain state tracking you want to do.  But I can tell you that it's not likely something I'll get to this week, or next week.  Maybe not even next month.

For now, I can add proposal tracking to core.
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Offline cube

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Thanks Cube,

Thats what I figured.  I appreciate your confirmation.  I created a new proposal and voted for it.  This one will expire on 11-1-15 at 12:00 UDT http://cryptofresh.com/p/1.10.10 (great site by the way.  It would be good to backup these proposals so we could look at then after they are expired.  Perhaps in a different section so people don't get confused about what is currently available to vote for)
I think I understand how we get approval from 1.2.0 as well.  get_object 1.2.0 returns
Code: [Select]
    "active": {
      "weight_threshold": 28461,
      "account_auths": [[
          "1.2.1191",
          1224
        ],[ 
          "1.2.22517",
          1750
        ],[ 
          "1.2.90742",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90744",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90746",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90747",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90748",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90749",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90750",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90751",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90752",
          5994
        ]
      ],
weight seems to be based upon total votes, and we need 51% of that vote, or  "weight_threshold": 28461 for approval.  So at this point we will need 5 inits to pass anything, and dele-puppy and mindphlux are after thoughts.  (5 inits are 29970)

You are welcome. :)

Object 1.2.0 is the committee account which consists of all the inits, mindplux and you currently.  The total votes is 56920 and a weight threshold of 28461 means that we need more than 50% participation of the total number of committee members to pass the proposal. 

BTS2 is modelling after how a modern democracy works.   +5%
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 05:33:59 pm by cube »
ID: bitcube
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Offline puppies

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Thanks Cube,

Thats what I figured.  I appreciate your confirmation.  I created a new proposal and voted for it.  This one will expire on 11-1-15 at 12:00 UDT http://cryptofresh.com/p/1.10.10 (great site by the way.  It would be good to backup these proposals so we could look at then after they are expired.  Perhaps in a different section so people don't get confused about what is currently available to vote for)
I think I understand how we get approval from 1.2.0 as well.  get_object 1.2.0 returns
Code: [Select]
    "active": {
      "weight_threshold": 28461,
      "account_auths": [[
          "1.2.1191",
          1224
        ],[ 
          "1.2.22517",
          1750
        ],[ 
          "1.2.90742",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90744",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90746",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90747",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90748",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90749",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90750",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90751",
          5994
        ],[
          "1.2.90752",
          5994
        ]
      ],
weight seems to be based upon total votes, and we need 51% of that vote, or  "weight_threshold": 28461 for approval.  So at this point we will need 5 inits to pass anything, and dele-puppy and mindphlux are after thoughts.  (5 inits are 29970) 
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Offline cube

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I think you created the previous proposal correctly.  The only thing is it expired without sufficient committee members voting for it.

Code: [Select]
approve_proposal <committee_member> "1.10.1" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["init1", "init2", "init3", "init4", "init5", "init6", "init7", "init8", "init9", "init10"]} falsethrows an error unless I run it as
Code: [Select]
approve_proposal dele-puppy "1.10.1" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["dele-puppy"]} false

You do not 'own' the inits and that is why 'approve_proposal with the inits' will throw an exception - "You do not have the authority..." or something like that.

from the intructions on http://docs.bitshares.eu/user/Committee.html I would expect it to be
Code: [Select]
approve_proposal <committee_member> "1.10.1" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["init0","init2", "mindlphlux", "init4", "init5", "init6", "init7", "init8", "init9", "init10"]} false but that didn't work. 

I also had to change all the booleans to true from http://docs.bitshares.eu/user/Committee.html to get anything to work.

The boolean was set to 'false' tells the bts2 system not to broadcast the transaction.  Setting it to true will broadcast the tx.

Let's try again.  I hope more committee members can be voted in and support the proposal.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 04:56:42 pm by cube »
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Offline puppies

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That is a good thing.  As much as I would like the fee to be lower, being able to set any of those parameters with just mindphlux and myself would be a scary scary thing.  I'm currently running a testnet which has a completely different fee structure. last night I did a get_global_properties from the wrong terminal and got this testnets fee structure instead.  As I saw basic account creation at 0 and a scale of 1000, I started to panic a little bit.  I thought I had entered something wrong, or something like that.  Anyways I am glad I do not have the authority to change any parameters all by my lonesome.  I will try another proposal with more more time until it takes effect. 
@mindphlux, how do I set up which approvals are needed?
Code: [Select]
approve_proposal <committee_member> "1.10.1" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["init1", "init2", "init3", "init4", "init5", "init6", "init7", "init8", "init9", "init10"]} falsethrows an error unless I run it as
Code: [Select]
approve_proposal dele-puppy "1.10.1" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["dele-puppy"]} falsefrom the intructions on http://docs.bitshares.eu/user/Committee.html I would expect it to be
Code: [Select]
approve_proposal <committee_member> "1.10.1" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["init0","init2", "mindlphlux", "init4", "init5", "init6", "init7", "init8", "init9", "init10"]} false but that didn't work. 

I also had to change all the booleans to true from http://docs.bitshares.eu/user/Committee.html to get anything to work.
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Offline cube

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Proposal 1.10.9 is now nowhere to be found.. so what happened? Did it take effect?

The time now is '"2015-10-28T14:56:18".  I think it expired on

Code: [Select]
"expiration_time": "2015-10-28T12:00:00"

It did not take effect.  The fee remains.

Code: [Select]
            "basic_fee": 9500000,
            "premium_fee": 200000000,
            "price_per_kbyte": 100000


The last time I saw it when it was still alive:
Code: [Select]
    "available_active_approvals": [
      "1.2.1191",
      "1.2.22517"

Two committee members (mindphlux and dele-puppy) voted for it.  Apparently, it is not enough.

It needed more committe members to vote for it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 03:03:48 pm by cube »
ID: bitcube
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Offline roadscape

Proposal 1.10.9 is now nowhere to be found.. so what happened? Did it take effect?
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Offline puppies

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    • BUT any proposal can also be rejected by shareholders within the review period? If so, how?
    [/list]

    Vote the Committee member who made the proposal out within the review period. The review period should be 14 days.
    The Committee member can specify what other Committee members are required for approval - if those Committee members do not approve, the proposal is not valid, if I'm not mistaken.

    puppy has not designed any Committee members that are required to approve, so it could go through if he's not voted out before the review period ends.

    Interesting.

    Just when you think you have it figured out.
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    Offline puppies

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    It seems you set the non premium account creation fee to 4750000 which is 47.5 BTS, if I'm not mistaken. Where's the multiplicator?
    I think its the
    Code: [Select]
    "scale": 20000
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    Offline mindphlux

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    A fee structure like this is not possible in the protocol, so a Committee member can also not create a proposal for this. This needs a worker proposal to make the changes in the protocol first, and then a Committee proposal to get it activated (hard fork)
    Please consider voting for my witness mindphlux.witness and my committee user mindphlux. I will not vote for changes that affect witness pay.

    Offline BTSdac

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    I think the fee is the biggest argument now
    so I have to questions about it 
    1. if you agree my propose,

    my suggestion is adjust fee according to average transaction per second (TPS)
    we can select a term , such as 15 days as one months , adjust the fee according to TPS value
    1. if TPS<=5.                   fee=2bts or $0.01
    2. if 5<TPS<=10 ,             fee=4bts or $0.02
    3. if 10<TPS<=20,            fee=6bts or $0.03
    4. if 20<TPS<=40             fee=8bts or $0.04
    5. if 40<TPS<=80             fee=10 bts or $0.05
    6. if 80<TPS<=160           fee=12bts or $0.06
    7. if 160 <TPS<320          fee=14bts or $0.07
    8. if 320<TPS<=640         fee=16bts or $0.08
    9.if 640 <TPS<=1280       fee=18bts or $0.09
    10. if 1280<TPS<=2560  fee=20bts or $0.10
    11. if TPS>2560                fee=40bts or $0.20
    2. what is your  concept  of fee ?
        i have a concept about fee
    transfer fee < exchange fee < short/cover fee  < bond fee
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    Offline mindphlux

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      • BUT any proposal can also be rejected by shareholders within the review period? If so, how?
      [/list]

      Vote the Committee member who made the proposal out within the review period. The review period should be 14 days.
      The Committee member can specify what other Committee members are required for approval - if those Committee members do not approve, the proposal is not valid, if I'm not mistaken.

      puppy has not designed any Committee members that are required to approve, so it could go through if he's not voted out before the review period ends.
      Please consider voting for my witness mindphlux.witness and my committee user mindphlux. I will not vote for changes that affect witness pay.

      Offline lovejoy

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      It looks correct to me.  The 'review_period_time - 2015-10-28T11:00:00' is too soon. (Now is "2015-10-28T03:39:48")  I think we need more time for committee members to review and approve it.  Perhaps give it about 5 days at least?

      We need more committee members to vote this proposal in.  I am stepping up as a temp committee member to support this cause.

      First off,  +5% for stepping up and trying out the controls of this magnificent machine.. :)

      Next, someone check my understanding of this process and help me fill in the blanks please.

      • Committee members are elected by shareholders to have the power to make and approve proposals.
      • Shareholders express desire for a change to bts parameters.
      • A committee member who agrees with said change, creates a proposal, and asks for other committee members to approve that proposal
      • Once the proposal is created there is a period of time for review of the proposal (currently this is a very brief window, is it 4 hours?)
      • There is a some committee approval threshold which a proposal must reach to take effect? What is that threshold?
      • BUT any proposal can also be rejected by shareholders within the review period? If so, how?

      Edit: I third the suggestion to extend review period time.
      « Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 06:38:59 am by bitscape »

      Offline mindphlux

      • Sr. Member
      • ****
      • Posts: 232
        • View Profile
      It seems you set the non premium account creation fee to 4750000 which is 47.5 BTS, if I'm not mistaken. Where's the multiplicator?

      I voted for your approval.

      I have submitted a proposal to change the non premium account creation fee to 47.5bts*2 to return it to the 95bts it was at prior to the recent doubling of fees.  The proposal is 1.10.9
      Code: [Select]
      locked >>> get_object 1.10.9
      get_object 1.10.9
      [{
          "id": "1.10.9",
          "expiration_time": "2015-10-28T12:00:00",
          "review_period_time": "2015-10-28T11:00:00",
          "proposed_transaction": {
            "ref_block_num": 0,
            "ref_block_prefix": 0,
            "expiration": "2015-10-28T12:00:00",
            "operations": [[
                31,{
                  "fee": {
                    "amount": 4000000,
                    "asset_id": "1.3.0"
                  },
                  "new_parameters": {
                    "current_fees": {
                      "parameters": [[
                          0,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 1000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          1,{
                            "fee": 500000
                          }
                        ],[
                          2,{
                            "fee": 0
                          }
                        ],[
                          3,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          4,{}
                        ],[
                          5,{
                            "basic_fee": 4750000,
                            "premium_fee": 200000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          6,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          7,{
                            "fee": 300000
                          }
                        ],[
                          8,{
                            "membership_annual_fee": 200000000,
                            "membership_lifetime_fee": 1000000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          9,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          10,{
                            "symbol3": "50000000000",
                            "symbol4": "13000000000",
                            "long_symbol": 250000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          11,{
                            "fee": 50000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          12,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          13,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          14,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          15,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          16,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          17,{
                            "fee": 10000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          18,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          19,{
                            "fee": 5000
                          }
                        ],[
                          20,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          21,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          22,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          23,{
                            "fee": 100000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          24,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          25,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          26,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          27,{
                            "fee": 0,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          28,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          29,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          30,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          31,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          32,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          33,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          34,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          35,{
                            "fee": 100000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          36,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          37,{}
                        ],[
                          38,{
                            "fee": 500000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          39,{
                            "fee": 1000000,
                            "price_per_output": 1000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          41,{
                            "fee": 1000000
                          }
                        ]
                      ],
                      "scale": 20000
                    },
                    "block_interval": 3,
                    "maintenance_interval": 3600,
                    "maintenance_skip_slots": 3,
                    "committee_proposal_review_period": 3600,
                    "maximum_transaction_size": 98304,
                    "maximum_block_size": 2097152,
                    "maximum_time_until_expiration": 86400,
                    "maximum_proposal_lifetime": 2419200,
                    "maximum_asset_whitelist_authorities": 10,
                    "maximum_asset_feed_publishers": 10,
                    "maximum_witness_count": 1001,
                    "maximum_committee_count": 1001,
                    "maximum_authority_membership": 10,
                    "reserve_percent_of_fee": 2000,
                    "network_percent_of_fee": 2000,
                    "lifetime_referrer_percent_of_fee": 3000,
                    "cashback_vesting_period_seconds": 7776000,
                    "cashback_vesting_threshold": 10000000,
                    "count_non_member_votes": true,
                    "allow_non_member_whitelists": false,
                    "witness_pay_per_block": 150000,
                    "worker_budget_per_day": "50000000000",
                    "max_predicate_opcode": 1,
                    "fee_liquidation_threshold": 10000000,
                    "accounts_per_fee_scale": 1000,
                    "account_fee_scale_bitshifts": 0,
                    "max_authority_depth": 2,
                    "extensions": []
                  }
                }
              ]
            ],
            "extensions": []
          },
          "required_active_approvals": [
            "1.2.0"
          ],
          "available_active_approvals": [],
          "required_owner_approvals": [],
          "available_owner_approvals": [],
          "available_key_approvals": []
        }
      ]
      locked >>>

      Please support this proposal.  At the current price of 190bt to create an account the 80% refund takes 90 days to vest.  Reducing this to 95bts will be good for our faucets and our referral system, as it will allow them to get their cash back funds in a timely manner.

      p.s.
           I think I created this proposal correctly.  Please let me know if I messed up.

      p.p.s
           if you are a committee member you should be able to approve this with
      Code: [Select]
      approve_proposal dele-puppy "1.10.9" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["<your committee member name>"]} true
      Please consider voting for my witness mindphlux.witness and my committee user mindphlux. I will not vote for changes that affect witness pay.

      Offline roadscape

      I have submitted a proposal to change the non premium account creation fee to 47.5bts*2 to return it to the 95bts it was at prior to the recent doubling of fees.  The proposal is 1.10.9
      Code: [Select]
      locked >>> get_object 1.10.9
      get_object 1.10.9
      [{
          "id": "1.10.9",
          "expiration_time": "2015-10-28T12:00:00",
          "review_period_time": "2015-10-28T11:00:00",
          "proposed_transaction": {
            "ref_block_num": 0,
            "ref_block_prefix": 0,
            "expiration": "2015-10-28T12:00:00",
            "operations": [[
                31,{
                  "fee": {
                    "amount": 4000000,
                    "asset_id": "1.3.0"
                  },
                  "new_parameters": {
                    "current_fees": {
                      "parameters": [[
                          0,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 1000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          1,{
                            "fee": 500000
                          }
                        ],[
                          2,{
                            "fee": 0
                          }
                        ],[
                          3,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          4,{}
                        ],[
                          5,{
                            "basic_fee": 4750000,
                            "premium_fee": 200000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          6,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          7,{
                            "fee": 300000
                          }
                        ],[
                          8,{
                            "membership_annual_fee": 200000000,
                            "membership_lifetime_fee": 1000000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          9,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          10,{
                            "symbol3": "50000000000",
                            "symbol4": "13000000000",
                            "long_symbol": 250000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          11,{
                            "fee": 50000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          12,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          13,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          14,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          15,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          16,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          17,{
                            "fee": 10000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          18,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          19,{
                            "fee": 5000
                          }
                        ],[
                          20,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          21,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          22,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          23,{
                            "fee": 100000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          24,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          25,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          26,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          27,{
                            "fee": 0,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          28,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          29,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          30,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          31,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          32,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          33,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          34,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          35,{
                            "fee": 100000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          36,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          37,{}
                        ],[
                          38,{
                            "fee": 500000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          39,{
                            "fee": 1000000,
                            "price_per_output": 1000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          41,{
                            "fee": 1000000
                          }
                        ]
                      ],
                      "scale": 20000
                    },
                    "block_interval": 3,
                    "maintenance_interval": 3600,
                    "maintenance_skip_slots": 3,
                    "committee_proposal_review_period": 3600,
                    "maximum_transaction_size": 98304,
                    "maximum_block_size": 2097152,
                    "maximum_time_until_expiration": 86400,
                    "maximum_proposal_lifetime": 2419200,
                    "maximum_asset_whitelist_authorities": 10,
                    "maximum_asset_feed_publishers": 10,
                    "maximum_witness_count": 1001,
                    "maximum_committee_count": 1001,
                    "maximum_authority_membership": 10,
                    "reserve_percent_of_fee": 2000,
                    "network_percent_of_fee": 2000,
                    "lifetime_referrer_percent_of_fee": 3000,
                    "cashback_vesting_period_seconds": 7776000,
                    "cashback_vesting_threshold": 10000000,
                    "count_non_member_votes": true,
                    "allow_non_member_whitelists": false,
                    "witness_pay_per_block": 150000,
                    "worker_budget_per_day": "50000000000",
                    "max_predicate_opcode": 1,
                    "fee_liquidation_threshold": 10000000,
                    "accounts_per_fee_scale": 1000,
                    "account_fee_scale_bitshifts": 0,
                    "max_authority_depth": 2,
                    "extensions": []
                  }
                }
              ]
            ],
            "extensions": []
          },
          "required_active_approvals": [
            "1.2.0"
          ],
          "available_active_approvals": [],
          "required_owner_approvals": [],
          "available_owner_approvals": [],
          "available_key_approvals": []
        }
      ]
      locked >>>

      Please support this proposal.  At the current price of 190bt to create an account the 80% refund takes 90 days to vest.  Reducing this to 95bts will be good for our faucets and our referral system, as it will allow them to get their cash back funds in a timely manner.

      p.s.
           I think I created this proposal correctly.  Please let me know if I messed up.

      p.p.s
           if you are a committee member you should be able to approve this with
      Code: [Select]
      approve_proposal dele-puppy "1.10.9" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["<your committee member name>"]} true

      I wanted to get a closer look at the proposal, so I created a basic viewer:

      http://cryptofresh.com/p/1.10.9

      I've added your command on the page for easy reference.. I hope it's right :) but the first parameter is I believe fee-paying-account.

      How do members who don't want this proposal to go through vote against it?

      It looks correct to me.  The 'review_period_time - 2015-10-28T11:00:00' is too soon. (Now is "2015-10-28T03:39:48")  I think we need more time for committee members to review and approve it.  Perhaps give it about 5 days at least?

      We need more committe members to vote this proposal in.  I am stepping up as a temp committee member to support this cause.

      Yea, definitely might need longer review, plus we might have some new committee members joining soon..

      And what's with old proposals being inaccessible? get_object(1.10.1 thru 1.10.8) all return "null".. I think there needs to be an easy way to reference previous changes..
      http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

      Offline cube

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      It looks correct to me.  The 'review_period_time - 2015-10-28T11:00:00' is too soon. (Now is "2015-10-28T03:39:48")  I think we need more time for committee members to review and approve it.  Perhaps give it about 5 days at least?

      We need more committe members to vote this proposal in.  I am stepping up as a temp committee member to support this cause.
      « Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 03:44:37 am by cube »
      ID: bitcube
      bitcube is a dedicated witness and committe member. Please vote for bitcube.

      Offline puppies

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      I have submitted a proposal to change the non premium account creation fee to 47.5bts*2 to return it to the 95bts it was at prior to the recent doubling of fees.  The proposal is 1.10.9
      Code: [Select]
      locked >>> get_object 1.10.9
      get_object 1.10.9
      [{
          "id": "1.10.9",
          "expiration_time": "2015-10-28T12:00:00",
          "review_period_time": "2015-10-28T11:00:00",
          "proposed_transaction": {
            "ref_block_num": 0,
            "ref_block_prefix": 0,
            "expiration": "2015-10-28T12:00:00",
            "operations": [[
                31,{
                  "fee": {
                    "amount": 4000000,
                    "asset_id": "1.3.0"
                  },
                  "new_parameters": {
                    "current_fees": {
                      "parameters": [[
                          0,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 1000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          1,{
                            "fee": 500000
                          }
                        ],[
                          2,{
                            "fee": 0
                          }
                        ],[
                          3,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          4,{}
                        ],[
                          5,{
                            "basic_fee": 4750000,
                            "premium_fee": 200000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          6,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          7,{
                            "fee": 300000
                          }
                        ],[
                          8,{
                            "membership_annual_fee": 200000000,
                            "membership_lifetime_fee": 1000000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          9,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          10,{
                            "symbol3": "50000000000",
                            "symbol4": "13000000000",
                            "long_symbol": 250000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          11,{
                            "fee": 50000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          12,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          13,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          14,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          15,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          16,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          17,{
                            "fee": 10000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          18,{
                            "fee": 50000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          19,{
                            "fee": 5000
                          }
                        ],[
                          20,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          21,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          22,{
                            "fee": 2000000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          23,{
                            "fee": 100000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          24,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          25,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          26,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          27,{
                            "fee": 0,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          28,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          29,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          30,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          31,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          32,{
                            "fee": 500000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          33,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          34,{
                            "fee": 100000
                          }
                        ],[
                          35,{
                            "fee": 100000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          36,{
                            "fee": 2000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          37,{}
                        ],[
                          38,{
                            "fee": 500000,
                            "price_per_kbyte": 10
                          }
                        ],[
                          39,{
                            "fee": 1000000,
                            "price_per_output": 1000000
                          }
                        ],[
                          41,{
                            "fee": 1000000
                          }
                        ]
                      ],
                      "scale": 20000
                    },
                    "block_interval": 3,
                    "maintenance_interval": 3600,
                    "maintenance_skip_slots": 3,
                    "committee_proposal_review_period": 3600,
                    "maximum_transaction_size": 98304,
                    "maximum_block_size": 2097152,
                    "maximum_time_until_expiration": 86400,
                    "maximum_proposal_lifetime": 2419200,
                    "maximum_asset_whitelist_authorities": 10,
                    "maximum_asset_feed_publishers": 10,
                    "maximum_witness_count": 1001,
                    "maximum_committee_count": 1001,
                    "maximum_authority_membership": 10,
                    "reserve_percent_of_fee": 2000,
                    "network_percent_of_fee": 2000,
                    "lifetime_referrer_percent_of_fee": 3000,
                    "cashback_vesting_period_seconds": 7776000,
                    "cashback_vesting_threshold": 10000000,
                    "count_non_member_votes": true,
                    "allow_non_member_whitelists": false,
                    "witness_pay_per_block": 150000,
                    "worker_budget_per_day": "50000000000",
                    "max_predicate_opcode": 1,
                    "fee_liquidation_threshold": 10000000,
                    "accounts_per_fee_scale": 1000,
                    "account_fee_scale_bitshifts": 0,
                    "max_authority_depth": 2,
                    "extensions": []
                  }
                }
              ]
            ],
            "extensions": []
          },
          "required_active_approvals": [
            "1.2.0"
          ],
          "available_active_approvals": [],
          "required_owner_approvals": [],
          "available_owner_approvals": [],
          "available_key_approvals": []
        }
      ]
      locked >>>

      Please support this proposal.  At the current price of 190bt to create an account the 80% refund takes 90 days to vest.  Reducing this to 95bts will be good for our faucets and our referral system, as it will allow them to get their cash back funds in a timely manner.

      p.s.
           I think I created this proposal correctly.  Please let me know if I messed up.

      p.p.s
           if you are a committee member you should be able to approve this with
      Code: [Select]
      approve_proposal dele-puppy "1.10.9" {"active_approvals_to_add" : ["<your committee member name>"]} true
      « Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 12:09:18 am by puppies »
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      Offline roadscape

      Congrats & thanks for stepping up!!
      http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

      Offline cube

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      Congratulations!  And thanks for standing up to help the community as a committee member.
      ID: bitcube
      bitcube is a dedicated witness and committe member. Please vote for bitcube.

      Offline clayop

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      Bitshares Korea - http://www.bitshares.kr
      Vote for me and see Korean Bitshares community grows
      delegate-clayop

      Offline puppies

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      Gotcha.  A reduction in transfer fee from $.05 to $.01 is still a great benefit, but definitely less likely to make someone upgrade than $.20 to $.04. 

      At what point do the fees decrease the likelihood of new users getting involved at all. 
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      Offline fav

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      I'm cool with it except for tx fees.

      How do you plan to keep Lt relevant? How do you fund worker pool? How do you make this interesting for marketers?

      I'm not sure what you mean by keep Lt relevant.  Typo?  keep it relevant? 

      I am by no means sold on reducing transfer fee.  I am just open to the idea.  I kinda like the idea of competing with btc transfer wise, and charging more for the stuff that you cant do on the btc chain.  I would like to see a breakdown of which operations are making us the most bts.  We need to keep deflation going, fund our workers so we can improve the blockchain, and provide an incentive to marketers to sign up new users.  All of those things are more important than having a low transfer fee.

      lt = lifetime

      Offline puppies

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      I'm cool with it except for tx fees.

      How do you plan to keep Lt relevant? How do you fund worker pool? How do you make this interesting for marketers?

      I'm not sure what you mean by keep Lt relevant.  Typo?  keep it relevant? 

      I am by no means sold on reducing transfer fee.  I am just open to the idea.  I kinda like the idea of competing with btc transfer wise, and charging more for the stuff that you cant do on the btc chain.  I would like to see a breakdown of which operations are making us the most bts.  We need to keep deflation going, fund our workers so we can improve the blockchain, and provide an incentive to marketers to sign up new users.  All of those things are more important than having a low transfer fee. 
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      Offline Riverhead

      I'm cool with it except for tx fees.

      How do you plan to keep Lt relevant? How do you fund worker pool? How do you make this interesting for marketers?

      This is why we also need Fav, or another of like mind, as a committee member.

      I'll make a separate post with my ideal committee slate.

      Offline fav

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      I'm cool with it except for tx fees.

      How do you plan to keep Lt relevant? How do you fund worker pool? How do you make this interesting for marketers?

      Offline Riverhead


      Glad to see these starting to come out. You have my vote.

      Offline clayop

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      Yes.  I support BM's idea to refund fees for canceled market orders, but keep the 10bts fee for completed orders.  I think it is an elegant solution that will help prevent spam, but will not hurt us marketing wise.

      I think 0.1bts is good for feed publishing fee, but will vote to raise it if spam becomes an issue.

      I am open to reducing the transfer fee to something on par with bitcoin.  Maybe 5-10 bts.  Before making this decision final it would be nice to see some statistics regarding the percentage of transactions that are simple transfers vs other types of transactions.  I am a very big fan of the deflation we have been seeing the past ten days, and if transfers were the #1 driver of this, I would hesitate to reduce that. 

      In regards to block time, I think we should stay at 3 seconds.  I also would not change the max number of witnesses or committee members. 

      Those are really all the fees and parameters I have thought deeply about.  If there is something specific that we are considering I would greatly appreciate anyone elses point of view.

      Puppy, you have my full support. I will be a proxy of Korean community and will vote for you (actually, already did)
      Bitshares Korea - http://www.bitshares.kr
      Vote for me and see Korean Bitshares community grows
      delegate-clayop

      Offline tonyk

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      Oh and in general -  move the SQP "Short's Quality of Punishment" percent to the committee and keep it to no more than 3%

      3% is 1030 in the current format I guess.
      « Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 01:02:28 am by tonyk »
      Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

      Offline puppies

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      Do you have any opinions about current parameters or fee rates?

      Yes.  I support BM's idea to refund fees for canceled market orders, but keep the 10bts fee for completed orders.  I think it is an elegant solution that will help prevent spam, but will not hurt us marketing wise.

      I think 0.1bts is good for feed publishing fee, but will vote to raise it if spam becomes an issue.

      I am open to reducing the transfer fee to something on par with bitcoin.  Maybe 5-10 bts.  Before making this decision final it would be nice to see some statistics regarding the percentage of transactions that are simple transfers vs other types of transactions.  I am a very big fan of the deflation we have been seeing the past ten days, and if transfers were the #1 driver of this, I would hesitate to reduce that. 

      In regards to block time, I think we should stay at 3 seconds.  I also would not change the max number of witnesses or committee members. 

      Those are really all the fees and parameters I have thought deeply about.  If there is something specific that we are considering I would greatly appreciate anyone elses point of view.

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      Offline clayop

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      Do you have any opinions about current parameters or fee rates?
      Bitshares Korea - http://www.bitshares.kr
      Vote for me and see Korean Bitshares community grows
      delegate-clayop

      Offline phillyguy

      +5% Thanks Puppies for not only stepping forward for this need, but for your long time contributions as well!
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      Offline puppies

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      In response to Bytemasters request on the 10-23 mumble I am putting myself forward as a temporary committee member candidate.  I am a current active witness and have no interest in being a committee member long term.  In the short term however there seems to be a dearth of candidates willing to navigate the cli_wallet. 

      As an active witness I will abstain from any vote changing witness pay.  I reserve the right to vote to change feed publishing fees.

      I believe that I am open to reason and evidence, and am willing to change my mind when presented with such.  Other than in regards to witness pay I reserve the right to change any opinion, and vote according to that opinion. 

      I believe that decentralizing the committee member position is important enough to elect some temporary candidates until we can find long term solutions.  If you agree feel free to vote me in.
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