Reasons for Lowering Fees

[Riverhead]

Too bad our sample size is so small.

Hmmm, I wonder why that is.

More than fees on trades but your point is taken.

IMHO the social good of bts to the repressed masses is true ownership, decentralized governance, and to some degree anonymity. Not a discount trading house.

From a blockchain perspective it's better to have fewer expensive trades than many cheap ones like we see on the crypto exchanges.

From that perspective we're better off courting the E-Trade crowd ( fewer trades with higher fees) than the crypto micro trades crowd. Refunding 99% of the fee for a canceled order is a good move.

Maybe we need one before we can get the other..I didn't know. I just know a large volume of tiny cheap transactions will bloat the chain very quickly.

[Empirical1.2]

Econ-101 has that graph of price vs volume where the zenith is max profit. Playing with the fees up or down is the only way to add data points. Too bad our sample size is so small.

That's why A/B testing with price isn't a good idea and you should instead do customer research in the form of a forum survey as a way to get a better starting point imo.

http://www.priceintelligently.com/blog/bid/180676/Why-You-Should-Never-A-B-Test-Your-Pricing-Strategy

I prefer.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Westendorp%27s_Price_Sensitivity_Meter

[clayop]

You can send BTC with fee setting of 0.5 or 1 BTC per transfer, if you really want higher fee.

You've underestimated me clayop.

I set my BTC fees to 5 BTC per transaction ... like a real man.

Raise all teh fees!  It's the only way to attract more people, especially those who really need cryptocurrency in the looming global financial apocalypse.

Lol yeah I underestimated you haha

[Tuck Fheman]

Too bad our sample size is so small.

Hmmm, I wonder why that is.

[Riverhead]

Let's come at it from a different direction.

- How much does it actually cost a witness to process a transaction?

- What is the storage cost per trade in terms of bloat?

Econ-101 has that graph of price vs volume where the zenith is max profit. Playing with the fees up or down is the only way to add data points. Too bad our sample size is so small.

How low could the fees go before the exchange was losing money per transaction? May be worth a promotional period to spurn adoption.

[Tuck Fheman]

You can send BTC with fee setting of 0.5 or 1 BTC per transfer, if you really want higher fee.

You've underestimated me clayop.

I set my BTC fees to 5 BTC per transaction ... like a real man.

Raise all teh fees!  It's the only way to attract more people, especially those who really need cryptocurrency in the looming global financial apocalypse.

[tonyk]

We won't attract high frequency bots but they don't really fit on a blockchain based exchange anyway.

You're ignoring the percentage fee. IF the percentage fee exist, the order creation fee is always additional.

And who is we? People who believe high fees really work? We should listen shareholders voice.

By "We" I mean that even at one second blocktimes the TPS is still way too slow for high frequency bot traders. Have a look at Yunbi's CNY/BTC pair. It's madness - but granted that is what happens with zero fees which I understand is not what you're proposing.

Which percentage fee? I don't think BTS has one, does it?

BTS doesn't but will. (Proposal 2)
But you may not understand this because you're not much involved in trading. You will meet many UIAs with market fees, if you trade.

If the person who ran (and I believe as well wrote) the single biggest market making bot on any exchange ever for BTS is considered not into trading. At least for the purposes of this discussion...I think we are in trouble...

Also, as it stands now everyone involved in alts crypto is into trading, out of pure necessity.

[clayop]

Higher pay brings more Devs, I hear (I can't see them yet, but I hear it).

So I guess the reasoning is that higher fees should bring in more users.

It's a well known fact that the un-banked love high fees.  (Source : myass.com) <-- I'm going to guess that you don't want to click that.

I mean, don't you seek out the bank that has the highest fees?  I know I do!  I'm always looking to pay the most fees I can so that I can support the fat cats running the bank. But like all cryptocurrencies, BitShares was built so that you can be your own bank! So I'm running the bank and paying high fees, but I get some of my high fees back if I pay another high fee to be a Lifetime Member!

So I'm pretty sure I'm going to be rich very soon!

The un-banked are the target audience for cryptocurrency, so we must raise fees as high as possible to attract more high quality un-banked people.

I hope that helps!

You can send BTC with fee setting of 0.5 or 1 BTC per transfer, if you really want higher fee.

[Tuck Fheman]

If you truly believe the high fee is the only solution, increase fee to 60 BTS ($0.20). Then let's see potential users reaction and market price changes.

IMO, we're in the vicious circle. High fees drives out users, less users decrease the demands, price decreases, and finally higher fees and again.

Someday you will agree with me, but hopefully it's not too late.

Higher pay brings more Devs, I hear (I can't see them yet, but I hear it).

So I guess the reasoning is that higher fees should bring in more users.

It's a well known fact that the un-banked love high fees.  (Source : myass.com) <-- I'm going to guess that you don't want to click that.

I mean, don't you seek out the bank that has the highest fees?  I know I do!  I'm always looking to pay the most fees I can so that I can support the fat cats running the bank. But like all cryptocurrencies, BitShares was built so that you can be your own bank! So I'm running the bank and paying high fees, but I get some of my high fees back if I pay another high fee to be a Lifetime Member!

So I'm pretty sure I'm going to be rich very soon!

The un-banked are the target audience for cryptocurrency, so we must raise fees as high as possible to attract more high quality un-banked people.

I hope that helps!

[clayop]

We won't attract high frequency bots but they don't really fit on a blockchain based exchange anyway.

You're ignoring the percentage fee. IF the percentage fee exist, the order creation fee is always additional.

And who is we? People who believe high fees really work? We should listen shareholders voice.

By "We" I mean that even at one second blocktimes the TPS is still way too slow for high frequency bot traders. Have a look at Yunbi's CNY/BTC pair. It's madness - but granted that is what happens with zero fees which I understand is not what you're proposing.

Which percentage fee? I don't think BTS has one, does it?

BTS doesn't but will. (Proposal 2)
But you may not understand this because you're not much involved in trading. You will meet many UIAs with market fees, if you trade.

[Empirical1.2]

Fav justified the reason Yunbi lowered their BTS transfer/withdrawal fees as perhaps because they needed a temporary promotion because they're not established yet. 

I believed it's because our transfer fees are too high and so discourage exchange business for Chinese customers and assumed we'd see BTC38 lower them too. 

The two businesses are  fairly independent.  High transfer fees will not impact the Exchange business and High exchange fees will not impact the payment business.

...whatever the fees are set to are unlikely to impact the decentralized exchange business.

Yunbi may prove to be the exception. But why then did they actively seek to set their BTS withdrawal fee lower and advertise it as a benefit unless they felt high transfer fees impacted their centralized exchange business?

• Lowered the withdrawal fee to 10 BTS!

they get 80% back of their tx fees anyways. that's why the can do it.

Yes... I understand that.

The point is if the high transfer fees didn't impact their exchange business they'd charge the standard transfer fee and keep the difference.  But obviously they feel their exchange users care about transfer fees so they pass their LTM discount onto the customers and make their revenue from trading fees instead.

do you know that for sure or is this just another assumption? yunbi is only operatively working since a few days, they're far behind every other working exchange. that's why there's a need for promotion in my opinion.

Possibly, we'll have to wait and see. That's why I also said Yunbi may prove to be the exception. But my 'assumption' is we'd see Chinese exchanges like BTC38 if they upgraded,  lower the fee because their customers might be sensitive to it based on the feedback I've seen and Yunbi's actions which as you say might just be a promotion.

Looking at the withdrawal page on BTC38 it seems they've lowered the withdrawal/transfer fee too.

Maybe that's just a temporary promotion too, we'll see.

They may be able to lower the fee because they are lifetime members. High fee actually does not harm business owners. They just toss the fee to the customer. The real problem is that high fee make customers annoyed and make BTS less competitive.
(It's like a tax. With higher fee, we will have more dead weight loss)

You may want to see marketing pitch. But with what advantages? Decentralized? There is Bitcoin with better infrastructure. Market pegged assets? Do they have liquidity now? If I were a outsider (not much understanding cryptos) I'd rather choose Nubits because it seems pegged and decentralized (plus lower fee than us, $0.01)

IMHO, we are killing ourselves from the perspective of marketing.

Plus, some members are ignoring the voice of vote.

I am agreeing with you clayop. We should lower the transfer fee.

I understand that they can lower the fee because they are lifetime members but the fact that they choose to lower it instead of staying at 40 BTS (& keeping the difference), reveals information imo that they feel they can attract more exchange users & increase profits by lowering the transfer fee.

[Riverhead]

We won't attract high frequency bots but they don't really fit on a blockchain based exchange anyway.

You're ignoring the percentage fee. IF the percentage fee exist, the order creation fee is always additional.

And who is we? People who believe high fees really work? We should listen shareholders voice.

By "We" I mean that even at one second blocktimes the TPS is still way too slow for high frequency bot traders. Have a look at Yunbi's CNY/BTC pair. It's madness - but granted that is what happens with zero fees which I understand is not what you're proposing.

Which percentage fee? I don't think BTS has one, does it?

[clayop]

@bytemaster

If you truly believe the high fee is the only solution, increase fee to 60 BTS ($0.20). Then let's see potential users reaction and market price changes.

IMO, we're in the vicious circle. High fees drives out users, less users decrease the demands, price decreases, and finally higher fees and again.

Someday you will agree with me, but hopefully it's not too late.

[clayop]

Fav justified the reason Yunbi lowered their BTS transfer/withdrawal fees as perhaps because they needed a temporary promotion because they're not established yet. 

I believed it's because our transfer fees are too high and so discourage exchange business for Chinese customers and assumed we'd see BTC38 lower them too. 

The two businesses are  fairly independent.  High transfer fees will not impact the Exchange business and High exchange fees will not impact the payment business.

...whatever the fees are set to are unlikely to impact the decentralized exchange business.

Yunbi may prove to be the exception. But why then did they actively seek to set their BTS withdrawal fee lower and advertise it as a benefit unless they felt high transfer fees impacted their centralized exchange business?

• Lowered the withdrawal fee to 10 BTS!

they get 80% back of their tx fees anyways. that's why the can do it.

Yes... I understand that.

The point is if the high transfer fees didn't impact their exchange business they'd charge the standard transfer fee and keep the difference.  But obviously they feel their exchange users care about transfer fees so they pass their LTM discount onto the customers and make their revenue from trading fees instead.

do you know that for sure or is this just another assumption? yunbi is only operatively working since a few days, they're far behind every other working exchange. that's why there's a need for promotion in my opinion.

Possibly, we'll have to wait and see. That's why I also said Yunbi may prove to be the exception. But my 'assumption' is we'd see Chinese exchanges like BTC38 if they upgraded,  lower the fee because their customers might be sensitive to it based on the feedback I've seen and Yunbi's actions which as you say might just be a promotion.

Looking at the withdrawal page on BTC38 it seems they've lowered the withdrawal/transfer fee too.

Maybe that's just a temporary promotion too, we'll see.

They may be able to lower the fee because they are lifetime members. High fee actually does not harm business owners. They just toss the fee to the customer. The real problem is that high fee make customers annoyed and make BTS less competitive.
(It's like a tax. With higher fee, we will have more dead weight loss)

You may want to see marketing pitch. But with what advantages? Decentralized? There is Bitcoin with better infrastructure. Market pegged assets? Do they have liquidity now? If I were a outsider (not much understanding cryptos) I'd rather choose Nubits because it seems pegged and decentralized (plus lower fee than us, $0.01)

IMHO, we are killing ourselves from the perspective of marketing.

Plus, some members are ignoring the voice of vote.

[Empirical1.2]

Fav justified the reason Yunbi lowered their BTS transfer/withdrawal fees as perhaps because they needed a temporary promotion because they're not established yet. 

I believed it's because our transfer fees are too high and so discourage exchange business for Chinese customers and assumed we'd see BTC38 lower them too. 

The two businesses are  fairly independent.  High transfer fees will not impact the Exchange business and High exchange fees will not impact the payment business.

...whatever the fees are set to are unlikely to impact the decentralized exchange business.

Yunbi may prove to be the exception. But why then did they actively seek to set their BTS withdrawal fee lower and advertise it as a benefit unless they felt high transfer fees impacted their centralized exchange business?

• Lowered the withdrawal fee to 10 BTS!

they get 80% back of their tx fees anyways. that's why the can do it.

Yes... I understand that.

The point is if the high transfer fees didn't impact their exchange business they'd charge the standard transfer fee and keep the difference.  But obviously they feel their exchange users care about transfer fees so they pass their LTM discount onto the customers and make their revenue from trading fees instead.

do you know that for sure or is this just another assumption? yunbi is only operatively working since a few days, they're far behind every other working exchange. that's why there's a need for promotion in my opinion.

Possibly, we'll have to wait and see. That's why I also said Yunbi may prove to be the exception. But my 'assumption' is we'd see Chinese exchanges like BTC38 if they upgraded,  lower the fee because their customers might be sensitive to it based on the feedback I've seen and Yunbi's actions which as you say might just be a promotion.

Looking at the withdrawal page on BTC38 it seems they've lowered the withdrawal/transfer fee too.

Maybe that's just a temporary promotion too, we'll see.