Author Topic: Meanwhile at Ripple  (Read 4998 times)

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Offline reiddouthat


Very interesting that Ripple is migrating to a platform focused entirely on an old idea, atomic cross chain trading (ACCT)

It looks like they have written a 25 page white paper expounding upon the concept in very general terms.   

It is clear why banks are interested in this:  they each have their own internal ledgers and they want to keep it that way.    This means the only solution that the banks will accept is one built around atomic trading.   

Atomic trading depends upon multiple ACTIVE participants in every trade and is limited in speed by a need for various timeouts and exchanges of data.   

At the end of the day picture two banks using this system.   A customer of Bank A wishes to send funds to a customer of Bank B and we assume Bank A and B are not cooperating with each other.     Their protocol assumes that Connector C has an account with Bank A and Bank B and that both Bank A and Bank B support time locked escrow protocol (ACCT).  Connector C must run a server to facilitate the transfer of money from A to B and customers must know how to discover the potential paths between various banks.

Connector C is effectively a trust-free version of Shape Shift, Meta Exchange, and Block Trades.   When user Sam of Bank A transfers  $100 BankA.USD  to user Alice of Bank B, Alice receives $100 BankB.USD.    The connector is performing a shape-shift from BankA.USD to BankB.USD and as a result is exposed to any and all volatility between BankA.USD and BankB.USD and must also maintain sufficient liquidity.   If there is a bank run from BankA to BankB the connector may run out of funds in its account on BankB while its balance in BankA grows.   

As a result of this, connectors must charge fees and their fees will change based upon how their portfolios are balanced.   Making a payment between two trustworthy solvent banks issuing notes for the same currency will have relatively low spreads.    Providing a connector from Bitcoin or BitShares to a bank account would have much higher spreads.   In fact the fees would probably be prohibitive when compared to Credit Cards.

Furthermore, even though there is no longer any need to trust the connector, the connector is theoretically exposed to the same legal risks and barriers to entry as ShapeShift, MetaExchange, and BlockTrades.   Market forces will tend to push all trades through the same connectors to maximize volume and minimize spreads charged by the connectors. 

The ultimate conclusion from all of this is that governments will regulate the connectors which will effectively keep some ledgers from ever gaining a connector. 

Creating a version of ShapeShift or BlockTrades that is Trust Free does mean that there is less need to regulate the connectors from the perspective of potential theft, but regulations will still be required from the perspective of Anti-money-laundering.   

Ultimately all they have accomplished is the elimination of the need to trust ShapeShift for a single minute.  The amount of money lost in the market by companies like ShapeShift defaulting is pretty close to 0.  Therefore the value of eliminating this particular risk is pretty close to 0.   

The only way that this Interledger system would have any value at all is if the operators of Connectors were free from all regulations because they can perform their function in a trust-free manner.   This would allow many people to set up all kinds of businesses like Shape Shift to connect everything to everything for very low fees.     Eliminating the need for regulating these entities would have tremendous value.   

Unfortunately I fear that Connectors will be heavily regulated.   BankA or BankB could shutdown Connector C at any time by freezing their account.  While no user funds would be lost, the market would be anything but free and the only connectors that would exist would be the same ones that could be trusted in the first place.

Since Bitshares is trying to woo the banks, maybe it might be a good idea to highlight the fact that Bitshares supports the feature?

Even if it is rarely used or only used in instances between Bitshares and Bankchains it still would be useful.

This is such a good idea. I read in the Forbes article just that:
"OpenLedger, The first decentralized "FinTech Exchange" that enables users to convert Bitcoin to "Fiat-Pegged" smart-coins that can be held or traded within a decentralized system. Smart Coins can be cashed in through PayPal, Ripple gateway, and money transfer".

I've yet to see how to do any of this.
Charles R Douthat | @creiddouthat

Offline Ander

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We are both a competitor and could coexist.  (After all, many competing companies co-exist).
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Offline kingjohal

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Noob question here sorry....are we a competitor to ripple in any way ?

Is there anyway we could co - exist ?

Offline Akado

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It looks like they have written a 25 page white paper expounding upon the concept in very general terms.   


looked, but couldn't find it ... link?

http://interledger.org/interledger.pdf
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Offline carpet ride

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It looks like they have written a 25 page white paper expounding upon the concept in very general terms.   


looked, but couldn't find it ... link?
All opinions are my own. Anything said on this forum does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation between myself and anyone else.
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Offline luckybit

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Very interesting that Ripple is migrating to a platform focused entirely on an old idea, atomic cross chain trading (ACCT)

It looks like they have written a 25 page white paper expounding upon the concept in very general terms.   

It is clear why banks are interested in this:  they each have their own internal ledgers and they want to keep it that way.    This means the only solution that the banks will accept is one built around atomic trading.   

Atomic trading depends upon multiple ACTIVE participants in every trade and is limited in speed by a need for various timeouts and exchanges of data.   

At the end of the day picture two banks using this system.   A customer of Bank A wishes to send funds to a customer of Bank B and we assume Bank A and B are not cooperating with each other.     Their protocol assumes that Connector C has an account with Bank A and Bank B and that both Bank A and Bank B support time locked escrow protocol (ACCT).  Connector C must run a server to facilitate the transfer of money from A to B and customers must know how to discover the potential paths between various banks.

Connector C is effectively a trust-free version of Shape Shift, Meta Exchange, and Block Trades.   When user Sam of Bank A transfers  $100 BankA.USD  to user Alice of Bank B, Alice receives $100 BankB.USD.    The connector is performing a shape-shift from BankA.USD to BankB.USD and as a result is exposed to any and all volatility between BankA.USD and BankB.USD and must also maintain sufficient liquidity.   If there is a bank run from BankA to BankB the connector may run out of funds in its account on BankB while its balance in BankA grows.   

As a result of this, connectors must charge fees and their fees will change based upon how their portfolios are balanced.   Making a payment between two trustworthy solvent banks issuing notes for the same currency will have relatively low spreads.    Providing a connector from Bitcoin or BitShares to a bank account would have much higher spreads.   In fact the fees would probably be prohibitive when compared to Credit Cards.

Furthermore, even though there is no longer any need to trust the connector, the connector is theoretically exposed to the same legal risks and barriers to entry as ShapeShift, MetaExchange, and BlockTrades.   Market forces will tend to push all trades through the same connectors to maximize volume and minimize spreads charged by the connectors. 

The ultimate conclusion from all of this is that governments will regulate the connectors which will effectively keep some ledgers from ever gaining a connector. 

Creating a version of ShapeShift or BlockTrades that is Trust Free does mean that there is less need to regulate the connectors from the perspective of potential theft, but regulations will still be required from the perspective of Anti-money-laundering.   

Ultimately all they have accomplished is the elimination of the need to trust ShapeShift for a single minute.  The amount of money lost in the market by companies like ShapeShift defaulting is pretty close to 0.  Therefore the value of eliminating this particular risk is pretty close to 0.   

The only way that this Interledger system would have any value at all is if the operators of Connectors were free from all regulations because they can perform their function in a trust-free manner.   This would allow many people to set up all kinds of businesses like Shape Shift to connect everything to everything for very low fees.     Eliminating the need for regulating these entities would have tremendous value.   

Unfortunately I fear that Connectors will be heavily regulated.   BankA or BankB could shutdown Connector C at any time by freezing their account.  While no user funds would be lost, the market would be anything but free and the only connectors that would exist would be the same ones that could be trusted in the first place.

Since Bitshares is trying to woo the banks, maybe it might be a good idea to highlight the fact that Bitshares supports the feature?

Even if it is rarely used or only used in instances between Bitshares and Bankchains it still would be useful.
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Offline Empirical1.2

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The Ripple share price has lost 40% since Sep 14th and the announcement that 9 of the world's largest banks have joined to form a blockchain partnership. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/15/banks-blockchain-idUSL1N11L1K720150915


It was fairly obvious the large banks would collude to exclude, which is why I didn't/don't see a big future for IDentaBit.
So Ripple will not be the protocol that links major banks & mainstream to blockchain services.

If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline brainbug

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Offline bytemaster

Very interesting that Ripple is migrating to a platform focused entirely on an old idea, atomic cross chain trading (ACCT)

It looks like they have written a 25 page white paper expounding upon the concept in very general terms.   

It is clear why banks are interested in this:  they each have their own internal ledgers and they want to keep it that way.    This means the only solution that the banks will accept is one built around atomic trading.   

Atomic trading depends upon multiple ACTIVE participants in every trade and is limited in speed by a need for various timeouts and exchanges of data.   

At the end of the day picture two banks using this system.   A customer of Bank A wishes to send funds to a customer of Bank B and we assume Bank A and B are not cooperating with each other.     Their protocol assumes that Connector C has an account with Bank A and Bank B and that both Bank A and Bank B support time locked escrow protocol (ACCT).  Connector C must run a server to facilitate the transfer of money from A to B and customers must know how to discover the potential paths between various banks.

Connector C is effectively a trust-free version of Shape Shift, Meta Exchange, and Block Trades.   When user Sam of Bank A transfers  $100 BankA.USD  to user Alice of Bank B, Alice receives $100 BankB.USD.    The connector is performing a shape-shift from BankA.USD to BankB.USD and as a result is exposed to any and all volatility between BankA.USD and BankB.USD and must also maintain sufficient liquidity.   If there is a bank run from BankA to BankB the connector may run out of funds in its account on BankB while its balance in BankA grows.   

As a result of this, connectors must charge fees and their fees will change based upon how their portfolios are balanced.   Making a payment between two trustworthy solvent banks issuing notes for the same currency will have relatively low spreads.    Providing a connector from Bitcoin or BitShares to a bank account would have much higher spreads.   In fact the fees would probably be prohibitive when compared to Credit Cards.

Furthermore, even though there is no longer any need to trust the connector, the connector is theoretically exposed to the same legal risks and barriers to entry as ShapeShift, MetaExchange, and BlockTrades.   Market forces will tend to push all trades through the same connectors to maximize volume and minimize spreads charged by the connectors. 

The ultimate conclusion from all of this is that governments will regulate the connectors which will effectively keep some ledgers from ever gaining a connector. 

Creating a version of ShapeShift or BlockTrades that is Trust Free does mean that there is less need to regulate the connectors from the perspective of potential theft, but regulations will still be required from the perspective of Anti-money-laundering.   

Ultimately all they have accomplished is the elimination of the need to trust ShapeShift for a single minute.  The amount of money lost in the market by companies like ShapeShift defaulting is pretty close to 0.  Therefore the value of eliminating this particular risk is pretty close to 0.   

The only way that this Interledger system would have any value at all is if the operators of Connectors were free from all regulations because they can perform their function in a trust-free manner.   This would allow many people to set up all kinds of businesses like Shape Shift to connect everything to everything for very low fees.     Eliminating the need for regulating these entities would have tremendous value.   

Unfortunately I fear that Connectors will be heavily regulated.   BankA or BankB could shutdown Connector C at any time by freezing their account.  While no user funds would be lost, the market would be anything but free and the only connectors that would exist would be the same ones that could be trusted in the first place.   





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Offline Helikopterben

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On the other hand, ripple looks pretty oversold short term to me. 

But of course, BTS is the place to be.

Agree on both counts.

Offline Ander

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On the other hand, ripple looks pretty oversold short term to me. 

But of course, BTS is the place to be.
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Offline Akado

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Was just reading that reddit post now actually! Seeing fees will not be paid in xrp I don't see much usage for the currency then.. unless all banks use it but why wouldn't they just use their private ledger and use the protocol instead? They don't need to use xrp anymore. It's awkward. Wouldn't know what to feel if I had any xrp
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Offline Helikopterben

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It's looks like they capitulated to the banks and ditched their own ledger for this ILP protocol, or at the very least their focus is now on ILP since they failed to get the banks on board the ripple protocol, so everyone is dumping, including me.  In the words of mark cuban, "If your premise is wrong, get out."

What? Aren't XRPs used to pay the fees? I think the only difference with BitShares is that their assets aren't backed by XRP for example, but by their own gateways. They still need to pay fees to make transactions and those will probably be paid in XRP



This doesn't sound good coming from a long time ripple dev.
Quote from: joelkatz
XRP will have all the use cases it had before, with the exception of transaction fees for transactions that people would prefer to do on private ledgers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ripple/comments/3nqrlq/interledger_a_proposal_by_w3c_for_a_payment/


Quote
What about Bitcoin, Ripple and other so-called protocols for money? In reality, these are all just networks themselves.

We need a neutral protocol, like HTTP or SMTP, for payments on the Web that enables senders and receivers to each use different providers. It should not require a central operator, nor a globally accepted currency or blockchain. Anyone should be able to use the protocol without connecting to any core or official network.
http://interledger.org/


It looks to me like the banks are going to have full control or go down with the ship, meaning they will be going down with the ship as legacy banking is now obsolete.  I always saw ripple as a patch for the legacy banking system anyway and now it looks like ripple has failed to get them on board to use their protocol directly. 

Offline Akado

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It's looks like they capitulated to the banks and ditched their own ledger for this ILP protocol, or at the very least their focus is now on ILP since they failed to get the banks on board the ripple protocol, so everyone is dumping, including me.  In the words of mark cuban, "If your premise is wrong, get out."

What? Aren't XRPs used to pay the fees? I think the only difference with BitShares is that their assets aren't backed by XRP for example, but by their own gateways. They still need to pay fees to make transactions and those will probably be paid in XRP
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Offline Helikopterben

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It's looks like they capitulated to the banks and ditched their own ledger for this ILP protocol, or at the very least their focus is now on ILP since they failed to get the banks on board the ripple protocol, so everyone is dumping, including me.  In the words of mark cuban, "If your premise is wrong, get out."