BitShares' Target Market - We're not in the payment services business

[jakub]

BitShares is about getting traders and businesses (exchanges, PSPs, etc). Then those businesses will bring new users. Not BitShares.

What businesses, other than online exchanges, do you mean when you say "traders and businesses"?
(And what does PSP stand for?)

[xeroc]

BitShares isn't in the payment services business. 3rd party business on top of BitShares are.
This means we must support every business who wants to to build something on top of BitShares.
Those businesses will then atract new users.
Then we can worry about other stuff. Once we have a bigger (way bigger) user base that are not traders.

Rock solid foundation >> Traders and Businesses and Volume
Businesses >> Utility >> New users >> Profit

Jup .. that's what we were doing in Dublin at the Websummit .. getting more people on board .. and I am still in contact with some of the businesses there!

However, don't be too optimistic: It'll take time .. much more time .. Bitcoin's ecosystem wasn't deployed in 3 months either ..

[EstefanTT]

I would like to see people's opinion on this. Sometimes in the past it seemed BitShares got lost on what to do and it seems it might happen again. Why you ask? well,

Fact: People don't know what BitShares is about.

BitShares is obviously a platform with a great potential that could reach many businesses, but first we need to start somewhere. The fact people don't know what BitShares is about clearly shows there's a lack of focus on the path we should take and only adds to the uncertainty around the markets.

Let's see things how they are. CNX whether you like it or not is the backbone of BitShares. Without it, development would be affected. Fortunately we've slowly start to gather small groups of people willing to take the risk and develop their own tools as well,  for them. However, my point is, being directly responsible for the future of BitShares, imo, they should focus on one thing and let BitShares evolve around that rock solid pillar.

Originally BitShares was an exchange and I believe it still is. That's its main purpose. BitShares is in the exchange business. I've seen people extremely worried about fees, because it will affect BitShares and payment services and that as a consequence it won't attract new users. Pardon my language: that's bullshit.

The average joe won't use BitShares to his family in Africa. A dad with a family to take care of won't use BitShares as their bank account. Even if we build it for that, they won't use it. We're still years away of that becoming a reality. Look at bitcoin. It will take quite a while yet. The one's who are already into that space and are someone which no crypto can compete with atm is Ripple. Yeah, it's centralized you may claim, so what? It has all the connections and funding they have. They're set. It's just a matter of time.

Now what do I mean with this? It's not that BitShares won't ever be able to compete with Ripple for example. It's the fact that we should focus on our core objectives and be pragmatic. We're in the exchange business and we are the best in crypto for that. That's another fact. We have the best technology, let's take advantage of that.

If you want to build a house, you don't start with the roof, do you? You start by building a foundation. That's what developing BitShares as an exchange is. Building a rock solid foundation. Be the best at it.

"But by ignoring the payment services business you are ignoring bilions of users". Bilions of users that won't start using this kind of technology in the next 5-10 years. It's a waste of time and resources worrying about them now. They won't use BitShares, they won't undertand what BitShares is, they won't bring any income. Zero.

"Well, you're letting one of the core principles of crypto out of the picture, which is, people being able to own their own money". I did that on purpose to give emphasis to my point that we need a rock solid foundation first. You know what happens when a company has 10000 different and awesome ideas and wants to purse them all? Fails. It's not focused. That's why BitShares should be focused right now on building the best exchange infrastructure. But I have good news for you, I'm not despising payments services or remmitance businesses at all, in fact, I agree that they're useful. They're just not a priority right now. What's the solution then? Let businesses get into the payment services business.

BitShares is about that exchange that will shake the NASDAQ to the core. Then, around BitShares, business will sprout, adapt and grow. Those same businesses will be into the payment services stuff and will adapt. Of course we can make they're life easier right? Otherwise they might not be able to adapt! Of course. However that doesn't mean our priority should be debating how lower/higher fees won't attract new users.

The ultimate individual being damaged by the fees is not users. It's businesses. It's business that attract users. Not BitShares itself. BitShares is about getting traders and businesses (exchanges, PSPs, etc). Then those businesses will bring new users. Not BitShares. Get that into your head ffs. BitShares with lower fees as it is wont be used by someone in Somalia. That's wishful thinking.

tldr:
We're loosing focus and sight of what's our objective. We need a rock solid foundation first. Being the top exchange and place where exchanges work on.
______
BitShares isn't in the payment services business. 3rd party business on top of BitShares are.
This means we must support every business who wants to to build something on top of BitShares.
Those businesses will then atract new users.
Then we can worry about other stuff. Once we have a bigger (way bigger) user base that are not traders.

Rock solid foundation >> Traders and Businesses and Volume
Businesses >> Utility >> New users >> Profit

That was needed !!!

Clear, simple and very true !

 

[Akado]

I agree and disagree, business to start using Bitshares will want small fees to attract users to their business.

Not if the business provides a service worth paying the fees for. And businesses will only know if the fees they charge are too high after costumer input. However if they provide a service everyone is astonished and pleased with, people won't bother with fees. It's just a matter of how the business structures itself. It depends on the business' plan and the path it takes. They too have to adapt and be flexible.

When you want to write a program in a certain language or use a certain OS, you adapt or use a different one. However if it's the best one for your objectives, you will still use it even if it's difficult because it will be worth it.

Yes, once you identify the use cases, then you can compare yourself with your competitors / or partners and advertise what differentiates you from them, and / or complement them, and based on that consider the right price.

So far if we are only a decentralised exchange, then our partners are existing  exchanges which want to be part of the decentralised service but at the same time use it to build a bigger user base for their services. As we have discussed before a fast way of arbitrage between exchanges, or lending which will bring volume for all the parties.

In this scenario we want to base our pricing in the same way as other exchanges do, for both trading and transfers.  The added bonus is that the transfers in exchanges are cheap, and can also be done as a payment system.

Yes, we can adjust the fees to base our pricing as them but we don't have to sacrifice business development potential for that. We can either: 1. lower fees a lot to stay competitive and loose partnerships with 3rd party businesses 2. Be flexible, adapt the fees a little and focus on providing a better service to make it worth paying for.

What seems the most rational option to choose? ...

This line of thinking is something like that I was hoping for when I started a topic on Bitshares powerusers.

When we can serve very, very well a small market segment so that customers really value what we can offer, they will build good businesses on top of that and bring on more customers and users.

We could have many powerusers groups, but I agree that exchange business is probably the safest bet right now. It can bring a lot of users and along with them other usage possibilities.

The thing people don't understand is, by focusing on the exchange related stuff, we're not limiting ourselves. We're building something solid for other businesses to buid on top of. And those businesses can add a variety of businesses that we might even have not thought of! 3rd party businesses will bring the variety people want. But at the core, we are an exchange. We just offer potential for other businesses to develop other cool stuff to other target market.

[Samupaha]

This line of thinking is something like that I was hoping for when I started a topic on Bitshares powerusers.

When we can serve very, very well a small market segment so that customers really value what we can offer, they will build good businesses on top of that and bring on more customers and users.

We could have many powerusers groups, but I agree that exchange business is probably the safest bet right now. It can bring a lot of users and along with them other usage possibilities.

[betax]

I agree and disagree, business to start using Bitshares will want small fees to attract users to their business.

Not if the business provides a service worth paying the fees for. And businesses will only know if the fees they charge are too high after costumer input. However if they provide a service everyone is astonished and pleased with, people won't bother with fees. It's just a matter of how the business structures itself. It depends on the business' plan and the path it takes. They too have to adapt and be flexible.

When you want to write a program in a certain language or use a certain OS, you adapt or use a different one. However if it's the best one for your objectives, you will still use it even if it's difficult because it will be worth it.

Yes, once you identify the use cases, then you can compare yourself with your competitors / or partners and advertise what differentiates you from them, and / or complement them, and based on that consider the right price.

So far if we are only a decentralised exchange, then our partners are existing  exchanges which want to be part of the decentralised service but at the same time use it to build a bigger user base for their services. As we have discussed before a fast way of arbitrage between exchanges, or lending which will bring volume for all the parties.

In this scenario we want to base our pricing in the same way as other exchanges do, for both trading and transfers.  The added bonus is that the transfers in exchanges are cheap, and can also be done as a payment system.

[Akado]

I agree and disagree, business to start using Bitshares will want small fees to attract users to their business.

Not if the business provides a service worth paying the fees for. And businesses will only know if the fees they charge are too high after costumer input. However if they provide a service everyone is astonished and pleased with, people won't bother with fees. It's just a matter of how the business structures itself. It depends on the business' plan and the path it takes. They too have to adapt and be flexible.

When you want to write a program in a certain language or use a certain OS, you adapt or use a different one. However if it's the best one for your objectives, you will still use it even if it's difficult because it will be worth it.

[betax]

I agree and disagree, business to start using Bitshares will want small fees to attract users to their business.

[Akado]

I would like to see people's opinion on this. Sometimes in the past it seemed BitShares got lost on what to do and it seems it might happen again. Why you ask? well,

Fact: People don't know what BitShares is about.

BitShares is obviously a platform with a great potential that could reach many businesses, but first we need to start somewhere. The fact people don't know what BitShares is about clearly shows there's a lack of focus on the path we should take and only adds to the uncertainty around the markets.

Let's see things how they are. CNX whether you like it or not is the backbone of BitShares. Without it, development would be affected. Fortunately we've slowly start to gather small groups of people willing to take the risk and develop their own tools as well,  for them. However, my point is, being directly responsible for the future of BitShares, imo, they should focus on one thing and let BitShares evolve around that rock solid pillar.

Originally BitShares was an exchange and I believe it still is. That's its main purpose. BitShares is in the exchange business. I've seen people extremely worried about fees, because it will affect BitShares and payment services and that as a consequence it won't attract new users. Pardon my language: that's bullshit.

The average joe won't use BitShares to his family in Africa. A dad with a family to take care of won't use BitShares as their bank account. Even if we build it for that, they won't use it. We're still years away of that becoming a reality. Look at bitcoin. It will take quite a while yet. The one's who are already into that space and are someone which no crypto can compete with atm is Ripple. Yeah, it's centralized you may claim, so what? It has all the connections and funding they have. They're set. It's just a matter of time.

Now what do I mean with this? It's not that BitShares won't ever be able to compete with Ripple for example. It's the fact that we should focus on our core objectives and be pragmatic. We're in the exchange business and we are the best in crypto for that. That's another fact. We have the best technology, let's take advantage of that.

If you want to build a house, you don't start with the roof, do you? You start by building a foundation. That's what developing BitShares as an exchange is. Building a rock solid foundation. Be the best at it.

"But by ignoring the payment services business you are ignoring bilions of users". Bilions of users that won't start using this kind of technology in the next 5-10 years. It's a waste of time and resources worrying about them now. They won't use BitShares, they won't undertand what BitShares is, they won't bring any income. Zero.

"Well, you're letting one of the core principles of crypto out of the picture, which is, people being able to own their own money". I did that on purpose to give emphasis to my point that we need a rock solid foundation first. You know what happens when a company has 10000 different and awesome ideas and wants to purse them all? Fails. It's not focused. That's why BitShares should be focused right now on building the best exchange infrastructure. But I have good news for you, I'm not despising payments services or remmitance businesses at all, in fact, I agree that they're useful. They're just not a priority right now. What's the solution then? Let businesses get into the payment services business.

BitShares is about that exchange that will shake the NASDAQ to the core. Then, around BitShares, business will sprout, adapt and grow. Those same businesses will be into the payment services stuff and will adapt. Of course we can make they're life easier right? Otherwise they might not be able to adapt! Of course. However that doesn't mean our priority should be debating how lower/higher fees won't attract new users.

The ultimate individual being damaged by the fees is not users. It's businesses. It's business that attract users. Not BitShares itself. BitShares is about getting traders and businesses (exchanges, PSPs, etc). Then those businesses will bring new users. Not BitShares. Get that into your head ffs. BitShares with lower fees as it is wont be used by someone in Somalia. That's wishful thinking.

tldr:
We're loosing focus and sight of what's our objective. We need a rock solid foundation first. Being the top exchange and place where exchanges work on.
______
BitShares isn't in the payment services business. 3rd party business on top of BitShares are.
This means we must support every business who wants to to build something on top of BitShares.
Those businesses will then atract new users.
Then we can worry about other stuff. Once we have a bigger (way bigger) user base that are not traders.

Rock solid foundation >> Traders and Businesses and Volume
Businesses >> Utility >> New users >> Profit