Author Topic: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!  (Read 6135 times)

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Offline bytemaster

Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« on: December 04, 2015, 11:58:19 pm »
I am looking for a list of laws that have the following characteristics:

1. Completely Unjust  (Victimless Crimes)
2. Probability of Getting Caught Violating the law is Low
3. Cost of getting caught is high
4. The penalty for getting caught is mostly financial
5. Have public sympathy for the individual prosecuted

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Offline well.attenuated

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2015, 12:06:25 am »
(lack of) castle doctrine
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2015, 12:07:46 am »
I want a BitShares product that has a smooth and functional exchange interface, that will attract traders, that has an API which merchants can plug into, with a fully functional referral system that we can use to market the hell out of it.

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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2015, 12:08:22 am »
Tax evasion

Offline bytemaster

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2015, 12:09:49 am »
I want a BitShares product that has a smooth and functional exchange interface, that will attract traders, that has an API which merchants can plug into, with a fully functional referral system that we can use to market the hell out of it.

It's close. Are we there yet?

I am going to moderate / delete all off-topic replies.  Leaving this one as a warning.
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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2015, 12:17:39 am »
Gambling
Prostitution
Minimum drinking age
Everything in the patriot act
Insider trading
Unlicensed selling of financial products

Offline yvv

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2015, 12:23:07 am »
This is a question to lawyers. Check US states laws. There are a lot of stupid laws which came from Europe in 17th century, and they just forgot to cancel them.

Offline Stan

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2015, 01:08:10 am »
With apologies to our non US readers, I only know about laws here in the Land of the Free:

In no particular order:

Disarming a population without providing each of them a squad of full time body guards.
Exempting government officials from their own laws.

US Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). This "interstate commerce clause" states that the United States Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."  - Routinely used by the federal government to override the restraints on its powers by the rest of the Constitution -       ...Especially the 9th and 10th Amendments reserving those rights to the states or the people.

US Constitution - The Eighteenth Amendment (Prohibition of Alcohol).
US Constitution - Twenty Second Amendment (Should have limited U.S. presidents to zero terms).
Anti-supersizing of soft drinks.
The "Affordable" "Health" "Care" Act (Obamacare)
The "Patriot" anti-privacy Act (Bushcare)
FATCA - Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act
SEC v. W. J. Howey Co.
Dred Scott v. Sandford
Roe v. Wade (50,000,000 victims and counting)
New York BitLicense
Any law passed by the Federal government in 1913.
Any law passed by the Federal government after that.
Any rule passed by any Homeowners Association.
Romans 13:1-7

Um, why only ten?




« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 01:23:13 am by Stan »
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Offline DMo09

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2015, 01:23:26 am »
Driving without a seatbelt

Offline speedy

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2015, 01:43:54 am »
-Laws that steal 50% of my income to pay for slobs living on benefits, often for multiple generations.

-Laws that use tax payer money to pump up the housing market:
http://www.helptobuy.gov.uk/help-to-buy-isa/how-does-it-work

-The capital gains tax, so that if you try to escape from fiat slavery they can still punish you.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 01:50:27 am by speedy »

Tuck Fheman

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2015, 01:56:32 am »
I counter with ...

1) Is there any means by which any number of individuals can delegate to someone else the moral right to do something which none of the individuals have the moral right to do themselves?

2) Do those who wield political power (presidents, legislators, etc.) have the moral right to do things which other people do not have the moral right to do? If so, from whom and how did they acquire such a right?

3) Is there any process (e.g., constitutions, elections, legislation) by which human beings can transform an immoral act into a moral act (without changing the act itself)?

4) When law-makers and law-enforcers use coercion and force in the name of law and government, do they bear the same responsibility for their actions that anyone else would who did the same thing on his own?

5) When there is a conflict between an individual's own moral conscience, and the commands of a political authority, is the individual morally obligated to do what he personally views as wrong in order to "obey the law"?

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Offline cube

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2015, 01:58:31 am »
Sedition act in some parts of the world.
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Offline Stan

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2015, 02:06:31 am »

George Washington reviews the troops near Fort Cumberland, Maryland,
before their march to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion in western Pennsylvania.

And so it began...

« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 02:12:06 am by Stan »
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Offline onceuponatime

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2015, 02:40:44 am »

George Washington reviews the troops near Fort Cumberland, Maryland,
before their march to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion in western Pennsylvania.

And so it began...

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Offline Thom

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2015, 03:19:26 am »
Whatever the law is that requires U.S. citizens that renounce their citizenship and surrender their passport to pay an "exit" fee so they can legally leave the country without the risk of the U.S. government sending agents (could be through "treaties" with other governments who dispatch their police / military / agents) to collect taxes or extradition to be put in a cage for tax evasion or other trumped up charge. Roger Ver (and Zuckerburg?) had to deal with this crap. Why do you need to poll this community to ask this? Is this the best use of your time?
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Offline Stan

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2015, 04:16:08 am »
Whatever the law is that requires U.S. citizens that renounce their citizenship and surrender their passport to pay an "exit" fee so they can legally leave the country without the risk of the U.S. government sending agents (could be through "treaties" with other governments who dispatch their police / military / agents) to collect taxes or extradition to be put in a cage for tax evasion or other trumped up charge. Roger Ver (and Zuckerburg?) had to deal with this crap. Why do you need to poll this community to ask this? Is this the best use of your time?

The best use of Bytemaster's time is whatever keeps the creative juices flowing...
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Offline CoinHoarder

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2015, 05:22:02 am »
I can think of a ton of things that fit one or a few categories but not all, so I will only list things that I think mostly apply to all categories:

Cryptocurrency IPOs
Unregistered securities (operating one or offering an exchange service)
Unregistered money service businesses
Gambling
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Offline mint chocolate chip

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2015, 07:21:32 am »
Public intoxication, also known as "drunk and disorderly".

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2015, 07:59:26 am »
Billboards are outlawed in Hawaii, with 18 exceptions.
In New York, one must buy a license before hanging clothes on a clothesline.
In Tennessee, it is illegal to import skunks into the state.
Pinball machines in Arkansas cannot give more than 25 free games to anyone who wins.
In Baltimore, Maryland, it is illegal to take a lion to the movies.
Hanky panky is illegal in Connecticut.
In Ohio, it is illegal to fish for whales on Sundays.
In New Hampshire, it is illegal to collect seaweed at night.
Jambalaya in New Orleans, Louisiana is not subject to health laws.
Swearing in front of two or more persons in Mississippi garners up to 30 days in jail, which can be avoided by paying a fine of up to $100 into the state's swear jar.

That's 10.

And, drum roll, please...In Oklahoma, it is illegal to have a sleeping donkey in your bathtub after 7 pm. I'm feeling oppressed.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2015, 08:33:55 am »
1. Online Gambling

Most jurisdictions allow gambling at designated brick and mortar locations. The primary reason not too allow citizens to exercise the same right to gamble online is to protect tax income and the brick and mortar monopolies who are often the ones lobbying to maintain the status quo and protect their monopoly.

Quote
Augur also serves the less high-minded—though no less noble—purpose of providing cost savings and convenience to gamblers. Restrictions on gambling serve to protect government revenue at the betting man's expense. State-sanctioned casino operators pay high taxes, and state-run lotteries fleece their customers. But there's no logical or moral case for government restrictions on gambling, since no third party is harmed when consenting adults wager money on the future. Augur actually has the potential to make the world safer by taking away market share in the gambling industry from criminals.

https://reason.com/blog/2015/08/11/augur-gambling-prediction-ethereum

Some of the world's most richest cities, Macau, Monaco, Las Vegas etc. were built on the back of gambling.

Quote
The gambling center of Macau has become the world’s fourth richest territory per person, leapfrogging Switzerland, according to World Bank report. The ranking does not include Monaco which based on the latest available figures, would almost certainly top the rankings, says the Financial Times.

https://www.rt.com/business/169924-macau-overtakes-switzerland-wealth/

Bitcoin itself was arguably bootstrapped in this way with some saying over 50% of its transactions for the first few years came from gambling.

Given that blockchains can undercut centralised options, offer privacy, provable fairness and funds are safer and can't be seized -

It stands to reason that the richest blockchain in the world will be built on the back of gambling imo.

Other areas I've not looked at much...

- Marijuana

I don't really follow it but the global trend seems to be towards legalization. So while a decentralized market allowing all drugs might be perceived as negative outside crypto. A hemp/marijuana marketplace would probably be widely perceived as cool.

- Pirated media downloads

Even though there is copyright infringement, I think most people think of Sean Parker and Napster and other pirated sites as cool.

A blockchain with a witness system could put together virus free content of the latest media and charge for it possibly directing some of the proceeds to the copyright holder, even if it's lower than the amount they would like. While the site may change, the blockchain can't be easily shut down, so consumers will know to reference the blockchain and be directed to the site the 17 witnesses recommend. 


« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 08:36:03 am by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline merivercap

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2015, 10:25:43 am »
It seems pretty hard to find things that fall under all the criteria.

1.  I've read stories here and there about civil forfeiture and I'm not sure exactly how that works in the various states, but that seems to be a good topic.

2.  License plate registration expiration.  Had my registration expired for over 6 months.  I got pulled over and had my car towed on the spot once in SF.    I actually went to court to contest it based on my fourth amendment 'rights' against unreasonable search and seizure without a warrant AND probable cause.  The cop didn't show so the court cleared the ticket, but still had to pay $1,500 to $2,000 to the tow company and the city didn't refund that.  I also had to pay some kind of $100 cash fee to the city too for the honor of having my car seized.  It's a total racket.   When I retrieved my car there was a lot full of thousands of cars/motorcycles seized and sold by the city.  It's a revenue generating racket.  Most people who get their car towed find it more expensive to pay the tow company than what their car is worth so they just leave it there and it just gets auctioned off.   It's always been in the back of my mind to expose this racket about what goes on and also potentially go for some kind of class action lawsuit.   Maybe some day when I have time. 

3.  Marijuana and drug laws since most minority prisoners are non-violent drug offenders.  The prison-industrial complex is a racket. 

4. Raw milk, and food & health related laws. 

5. Forced vaccination

6.  Things dealing with the interstate commerce clause and rights to conduct business.

7.  Red-light cameras and excessive traffic ticket costs.  You'll get  a lot of people on your side for this and excessive parking ticket costs... The eighth amendment in the US Constitution prohibits 'excessive fines' as well as the California State Constitution's Declaration of Rights... back in the day King George was probably generating excessive revenue' the same way.

8.  Isn't there a book that says the average person commits 3 felonies a day.. here is some website I just pulled up: http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx .. seems to list a few things you can use... sure you can also find a lot of random things in the state/federal statutes that are harmful.  90%+ of statutes are probably unconstitutional and are just never tested in the courts ...
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Offline cube

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2015, 11:21:53 am »
Contract for DIfference offered by bucket shops is illegal in the States.
Sports betting (through a bookmaker) is illegal in parts of the world.
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Offline triox

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2015, 11:58:19 am »
Where I live gambling may only be offered by a venue or service registered locally.
This law ignores the existence of the Internet.
Every now and then the local  casinos and gambling sites launch a PR campaign about the "evils" of foreign websites taking away their business and tax revenue. The papers get all rallied up (no doubt while selling a nice ad package to them); the finance ministry asks the justice ministry to start blocking foreign gambling sites; the justice ministry responds that it's impossible and would probably violate EU laws and that's the end of it. The cycle repeats every few years.

Offline triox

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2015, 12:06:21 pm »
I am looking for a list of laws that have the following characteristics:

1. Completely Unjust  (Victimless Crimes)
2. Probability of Getting Caught Violating the law is Low
3. Cost of getting caught is high
4. The penalty for getting caught is mostly financial
5. Have public sympathy for the individual prosecuted

Jury duty?

Offline luckybit

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2015, 01:25:56 pm »
I am looking for a list of laws that have the following characteristics:

1. Completely Unjust  (Victimless Crimes)
2. Probability of Getting Caught Violating the law is Low
3. Cost of getting caught is high
4. The penalty for getting caught is mostly financial
5. Have public sympathy for the individual prosecuted

I'm aware you're an INTJ, so my guess is you have a consequence and risk based perspective.

What do you think of civil asset forfeiture?

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Offline luckybit

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2015, 01:38:14 pm »
I am looking for a list of laws that have the following characteristics:

1. Completely Unjust  (Victimless Crimes)
2. Probability of Getting Caught Violating the law is Low
3. Cost of getting caught is high
4. The penalty for getting caught is mostly financial
5. Have public sympathy for the individual prosecuted

A. Gambling.
B. Prostitution.
C. Crowd funding.
D. Issuing securities (Satoshi Dice?).

I would say with crowd funding you would get a lot of public sympathy. Here you would have people trying to better their own lives, contribute to society, build stuff, and the cruel SEC wants to stop it?

Issuing securities is similar. The SEC would totally be the bad guy unless it's a complete scam. The SEC was not viewed as the good guy for enforcing on Satoshi Dice.

Prostitution is another, most prostitutes who get arrested are not bad people and are just desperate for money. The people arresting them aren't offering them a job, and it's a victimless crime.

And then you have all sorts of situations where a person might leak something which clearly saves lives, such as if there is some toxin in the food which no one knew about. This person might be committing a crime, but most people who are saved from getting sick will be glad the person committed the crime.

Come up with a methodology, also factor in the risk. The risk matrix will give you the risk of facing consequences. The risk assessment can tell you which crimes are low risk high reward if for political protest purposes.  I would say the SEC example is low risk as no one has ever been prosecuted for that except for Satoshi Dice, but at the same time if enough people do get prosecuted for that it could force the laws to change. So if they crack down it would only make the SEC look unhelpful and bad or even irrelevant to a lot of people.

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Offline Stan

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2015, 02:20:36 pm »
I am looking for a list of laws that have the following characteristics:

1. Completely Unjust  (Victimless Crimes)
2. Probability of Getting Caught Violating the law is Low
3. Cost of getting caught is high
4. The penalty for getting caught is mostly financial
5. Have public sympathy for the individual prosecuted

Jury duty?

Nah.  You just have to tell them you are an INTJ personality and they let you off.
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Offline Akado

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2015, 02:33:03 pm »
Civil Forfeiture has got to be one of the most unjust stuff I've ever seen.

You're literally robbed by the ones supposed to protect you.

If after the incident you're found guilty, sure, makes sense if it was illegal. But even if you're not guilty they can still take your stuff. It's outrageous and disgusting.

I'd say Gambing too.
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Offline CLains

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2015, 02:41:15 pm »
Laws against entheogens like LSD, Psilocybin, and DMT, as well as empathogens like MDMA. Spiritual freedom for all o/

« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 02:44:58 pm by CLains »

Offline triox

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2015, 03:15:40 pm »
I am looking for a list of laws that have the following characteristics:

1. Completely Unjust  (Victimless Crimes)
2. Probability of Getting Caught Violating the law is Low
3. Cost of getting caught is high
4. The penalty for getting caught is mostly financial
5. Have public sympathy for the individual prosecuted

Jury duty?

Nah.  You just have to tell them you are an INTJ personality and they let you off.

Or write them back two words: "Jury Nullification" - they'll probably forget you exist.

Offline sittingduck

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2015, 03:55:07 pm »
Just don't register to vote and you never get called in the first place.

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2015, 04:03:32 pm »
Or write them back two words: "Jury Nullification" - they'll probably forget you exist.

The last request I received for jury duty was in 2007.

I use to receive them yearly and simply checked the box that I had a child under the age of ... whatever it required them to be to get out of jury duty.

Coincidentally 2007 was when my drivers license expired and I never renewed it.

I tried renewing it four times and failed.

1st time I tried online, only to be informed that they needed an updated image of me.

2nd time I tried at the DMV. I stood in line for 30 minutes to be informed their system was now down.

3rd time I waited too long to come back (because ... fuck them for wasting my time twice) to try again and was informed I now needed to retake the drivers test, but there was no one available to give me the drivers test.

4th time I waited in line for nearly an hour to be told there was no one available to give me the drivers test.

So I gave up and never looked back, even while driving. ;)

I'll pay the $200+ fine instead IF they ever pull me over again, which is highly unlikely where I drive.

And knowing most of the Sheriff's in my area ... who are either taking kickbacks from local drug dealers or just look the other way unless you've shot someone ... they'll let me go with a warning.



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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2015, 04:36:31 pm »
Helping someone to kill himself. Maybe in some countries it's even illegal to end ones own life, I don't want to look it up now. I hope it meets all of your points.

Offline yvv

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2015, 06:29:52 pm »

I'll pay the $200+ fine instead IF they ever pull me over again, which is highly unlikely where I drive.


Just keep $50 in your glovebox, and offer it instead of your id when you get pulled over. Every cop will be happy for this bargain :)
 

Offline fuzzy

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2015, 09:00:28 pm »
For participating in this BM-Sponsored Quest you have obviously saved bm time by providing valuable input (thus saving him time to have to search himself...leaving him far more time to code, but still with the knowledge that he can accomplish other important tasks at the same time--because he can trust delegating this job to you, the community members). 

For that, I am handing out BMs DKP, Brownies, to those who actively participated in helping this discussion remain productive. Thank you for that.

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Offline btstip

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2015, 09:02:32 pm »
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Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2015, 09:25:06 pm »
Just don't register to vote and you never get called in the first place.

it's a little harder.
Don't register to vote, don't register a vehicle or get a driver's license, don't have a job that requires a W4 (don't pay taxes), and don't receive any federal or state assistance (unemployment benefits)
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Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2015, 09:36:31 pm »
As an academic discussion, medicinal marijuana is probably one of the better examples, except the penalty is not financial.

It's hard to find examples where there is public sympathy for the offender, because usually those laws are "corrected" in a timely fashion.

Right now there is no sympathy for white-collar financial crimes or securities (not much love for the 1%ers, which is what they will be labeled as whether or not they are), but if a "Mom and Pop Pizza Shop Kickstarter" got pulled down by the SEC, there would be public sympathy for that. There is little sympathy for bitcoin crimes, since bitcoin is that thing criminals use to launder drug money to terrorist (according to public perception) or what you have to pay in if your computer is held ransom.

Medical marijuana has more and more public sympathy. Mainstream media has specials about medicinal marijuana where they try to make it personal and show it different than other drug offenses. In general, there is still little public sympathy for drug offenses, although more people are thinking that mandatory sentencing in some instances may be counter productive
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 09:38:10 pm by maqifrnswa »
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Offline thirtyeightptswarrior

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2015, 09:46:51 pm »
Thank you DKP chief, nice surprise, jingle bells!

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Offline btstip

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2015, 09:48:15 pm »
Hey thirtyeightptswarrior, here are the results of your tips...
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2015, 10:20:06 pm »
Just don't register to vote and you never get called in the first place.

it's a little harder.
Don't register to vote, don't register a vehicle or get a driver's license, don't have a job that requires a W4 (don't pay taxes), and don't receive any federal or state assistance (unemployment benefits)

I have never been called to Jury duty.  Luck? 
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline yvv

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2015, 10:24:09 pm »
Just don't register to vote and you never get called in the first place.

it's a little harder.
Don't register to vote, don't register a vehicle or get a driver's license, don't have a job that requires a W4 (don't pay taxes), and don't receive any federal or state assistance (unemployment benefits)

I have never been called to Jury duty.  Luck?

Definitely luck. I am not US citizen and I am not eligible to vote, but I receive these requests to be jury 2-3 times per year. I am tired to tell them that I am not US citizen.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 10:39:46 pm by yvv »

38PTSWarrior

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2015, 10:27:32 pm »
I was only in front of the jury hehe

Offline Stan

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2015, 12:42:50 am »
Just don't register to vote and you never get called in the first place.

it's a little harder.
Don't register to vote, don't register a vehicle or get a driver's license, don't have a job that requires a W4 (don't pay taxes), and don't receive any federal or state assistance (unemployment benefits)

I have never been called to Jury duty.  Luck?

Definitely luck. I am not US citizen and I am not eligible to vote, but I receive these requests to be jury 2-3 times per year. I am tired to tell them that I am not US citizen.

I got called just once.
I explained, when asked, that I was an engineering manager.
I was politely dismissed.
Haven't been called back since.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline yvv

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2015, 01:08:26 am »
Just don't register to vote and you never get called in the first place.

it's a little harder.
Don't register to vote, don't register a vehicle or get a driver's license, don't have a job that requires a W4 (don't pay taxes), and don't receive any federal or state assistance (unemployment benefits)

I have never been called to Jury duty.  Luck?

Definitely luck. I am not US citizen and I am not eligible to vote, but I receive these requests to be jury 2-3 times per year. I am tired to tell them that I am not US citizen.

I got called just once.
I explained, when asked, that I was an engineering manager.
I was politely dismissed.
Haven't been called back since.

Oh, that is why they keep calling me, although they know that I can't be a jury according to their own rules. You guys, who are eligible for this just skip your duties and your government press my ass because they need to fill their gap somehow. :)

Offline kenCode

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2015, 09:15:45 am »
Turning right on a red light?
Jaywalking?
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Offline Thom

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2015, 03:44:06 pm »
Just don't register to vote and you never get called in the first place.

it's a little harder.
Don't register to vote, don't register a vehicle or get a driver's license, don't have a job that requires a W4 (don't pay taxes), and don't receive any federal or state assistance (unemployment benefits)

I have never been called to Jury duty.  Luck?

Definitely luck. I am not US citizen and I am not eligible to vote, but I receive these requests to be jury 2-3 times per year. I am tired to tell them that I am not US citizen.

I got called just once.
I explained, when asked, that I was an engineering manager.
I was politely dismissed.
Haven't been called back since.

Not luck ^^^^THIS.

The attorneys / legal system don't want people on juries that can't be easily manipulated, triggered by emotional theatrics or those with the capacity to analyze problems and think critically.

All engineering professions and scientists fall into that camp. If you understand our legal system you NEVER show them how smart you are. I'm not suggesting you lie but rather play dumb as much as you can. Give the attorneys as little info as possible that would identify you as a smart, thinking person.

The power of jury nullification has been significantly reduced. Judges will "set aside" a jury verdict if the stakes are high and they can get away with it. Jurors that show too many "smarts" while deliberating can be found "biased" or other trumped up allegations made to get them kicked off the jury. Than can even happen if you just stubbornly hold out in opposition from the majority to "hang" the jury. That's why you need to be a bit sympathetic / cunning with how you interact on the jury. Play it as a game with your cards close to your vest. Think of it like one of those "survivor" / "big brother" reality shows. Politics and social skills are important.

Jury trials are very important in criminal cases where a single juror has the power to stop an innocent person from becoming the next victim of a "victimless" crime where nobody but The State budget and power looses, but your power as a juror is far less influential in civil cases.

Playing dumb is the best way to improve your chances of getting on a jury. Most don't want to spend time on jury duty b/c they are not taught about it's role in the legal system.

I also think the technical / critically thinking professions are weighted against in coming up with the list of prospective jurors. It's a filtration system, where the attorneys in the jury selection process are the final layer for weeding out those that cannot be easily manipulated. The system would not function the way that the powers that shouldn't be want it to if too many convictions were overturned by critically thinking jurors.

I once held the opinion that it was worth it to stay on the voting roster so I was in the running for jury selection. In 30 years in a single city have served on 2 civil juries, and was never invited to a criminal jury cattle call. It's so rare it wasn't a good reason to stay on the roster. A better strategy is to educate others of the importance and power they have as members of a **criminal** jury, and how best to use it and get past the filters.
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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2015, 04:40:14 pm »
Not luck ^^^^THIS.

The attorneys / legal system don't want people on juries that can't be easily manipulated, triggered by emotional theatrics or those with the capacity to analyze problems and think critically.

https://youtu.be/f40CZR2Fx2w

Offline roadscape

Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2015, 06:42:27 pm »
I am looking for a list of laws that have the following characteristics:

1. Completely Unjust  (Victimless Crimes)
2. Probability of Getting Caught Violating the law is Low
3. Cost of getting caught is high
4. The penalty for getting caught is mostly financial
5. Have public sympathy for the individual prosecuted

There's good ideas in this thread but #5 is the most difficult characteristic to cover..

When I think of tax evasion, insider trading, even jaywalking, they don't scream "public sympathy"

What about things like whistleblowing? Surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet. Not "illegal" per se but it's definitely prosecuted. Although the penalty may be much more than financial.

Also consider:
 - Circumventing DRM & revealing proprietary keys
 - Hacking your own devices
 - Downloading music/movies
 - Operating a pirate radio station
 - Writing censorship-resitant software
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Offline lovejoy

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2015, 10:29:49 pm »

I've seen so many lives ruined by unjust drug laws, this is the first and loudest thing that comes to mind, echoing sentiments of [member=32670]merivercap[/member], [member=5048]CLains[/member] and others above.

So I would put nonviolent drug offenses at the top of the list, especially since it affects such an insanely large number of people and consequently has a dramatically negative effect on society.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs

Thinking more on the topic at large.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2015, 10:54:56 pm »
Not luck ^^^^THIS.

The attorneys / legal system don't want people on juries that can't be easily manipulated, triggered by emotional theatrics or those with the capacity to analyze problems and think critically.

https://youtu.be/f40CZR2Fx2w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBuNvyo4j54
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unreadPostsSinceLastVisit

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2015, 01:23:03 am »

I've seen so many lives ruined by unjust drug laws, this is the first and loudest thing that comes to mind, echoing sentiments of [member=32670]merivercap[/member], [member=5048]CLains[/member] and others above.

So I would put nonviolent drug offenses at the top of the list, especially since it affects such an insanely large number of people and consequently has a dramatically negative effect on society.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs

Thinking more on the topic at large.

I haven't made this post yet because one of the criteria is the penalty is mostly financial.

Ruined ass life forever is a bit more than just financial.

Offline lovejoy

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2015, 08:01:49 am »

I've seen so many lives ruined by unjust drug laws, this is the first and loudest thing that comes to mind, echoing sentiments of [member=32670]merivercap[/member], [member=5048]CLains[/member] and others above.

So I would put nonviolent drug offenses at the top of the list, especially since it affects such an insanely large number of people and consequently has a dramatically negative effect on society.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs

Thinking more on the topic at large.

I haven't made this post yet because one of the criteria is the penalty is mostly financial.

Ruined ass life forever is a bit more than just financial.

Ahh yes, true point... Mostly financial eh? Well beyond the point where ones freedoms are beginning to be restricted by the state for running afoul of various unjust laws and horribly disproportionate sentencing guidelines, the whole theater of supposed, 'justice' is constantly exacting dues and levying financial burdens upon the accused, requiring resources well beyond what the average citizen has access to.  Bail, legal fees, time away from work, general life disruption.  So yes, greatly financial in terms of penalty, up to the point where your other freedoms are violated, and then it's a whole other ballgame besides, right down to finding work with a felony on your resume... The modern reputation system at work.

Tuck Fheman

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Re: Help me Identify the Top 10 most harmful laws!
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2015, 01:25:23 pm »
I'm just happy there's no law against how big muh sig font can be.  :P

Hey [member=31]fav[/member] muh sig font is bigger than yers!