Author Topic: Millions of Features, Features for Me!  (Read 7093 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2015, 04:49:55 pm »
BitShares stakeholders will now have price information that indicates how the market values each potential feature.  This price information can in turn be used to inform them on which features they should vote for.   A highly valued feature means that the market believes that feature will generate significant ROI and therefore be profitable for BitShares holders. 
To get this straight...

If you want accurate prices for all those features / FBAs wouldn't all FBA markets offered to investors have to have the same percantage of tx fees that goes to the FBA vs BTS holders as well as the same percentage that goes to CNX vs to the FBA investors?
I guess that there is no need to change the CNX vs FBA-Investor allocation accross different FBAs. But BTS holders probably still want to see FBAs/features that require just a tiny bit of coding work to have less tx fees allocated to the FBA (vs BTS) than with an FBA takes a lot of time to code. 
CNX' (or whatever other company is doing the work) incentive to not set the FBA vs BTS price too high and set it lower for FBAs that don't require that much work is to get BTS-stakeholder approval  for the worker.
Conclusion: The prediction / price discovery should work fine as long as the BTS holders vs FBA holders (CNX and FBA investors) relation is roughly according to how much funding the proposal asks for from FBA investors compared to other FBAs/features. If that is not the case BTS holder may feel overcharged and may want to replace the FBA that was experienced to be overly expensive with another one that is less expensive.
Resulting questions: How much funding should result in what BTS:FBA relation?
Another question is: What if a better feature which targets the same market (e.g. the bond market) is proposed as a normal worker proposal or a FBA sometimes in the future? Will the initial FBA investors just loose their investment when the other tx type is used more? That would make sense to me and would be analoque to the FBA as a small company analogy. But shouldnt it be recognized that the existence of any FBA completely depends on a social (soft) consesnus between FBA holders and BTS holders: In fact, BTS holders could at any time just vote for a worker proposal that changes nothing but allocates all tx fees from a respective feature to BTS holders that in part have gone to the FBA holders that funded the respective feature. If it is such a  soft social consensus than it must be as explicite as possible to work (so that the different camps can't bend arguments easily). Then again the resulting question is: How much change to the code of a FBA qualifies for it to be a new feature with a different allocation?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 04:56:24 pm by delulo »

Offline Samupaha

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 479
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: samupaha
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2015, 04:51:56 pm »
4. Are the fees generated from FBAs standalone, or is the 20% that goes to the network eligible for the refer program to also gain from the features? My concern is that larger and larger portions of the eco-system develop and what the refer program claims to offer starts to become less true as what refers can earn becomes marginalized against all the other areas of Bitshares where transactions are occurring.

I'm not sure if this is a bad thing. The purpose of referral program is to get more users. If we get more users more effectively with FBAs we don't have a need for a referral program.

Offline Akado

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2752
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: akado
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2015, 05:04:47 pm »
Another question is: What if a better feature which targets the same market (e.g. the bond market) is proposed as a normal worker proposal or a FBA sometimes in the future?

I would like to know this too
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2015, 03:17:29 am »
4. Are the fees generated from FBAs standalone, or is the 20% that goes to the network eligible for the refer program to also gain from the features? My concern is that larger and larger portions of the eco-system develop and what the refer program claims to offer starts to become less true as what refers can earn becomes marginalized against all the other areas of Bitshares where transactions are occurring.

I'm not sure if this is a bad thing. The purpose of referral program is to get more users. If we get more users more effectively with FBAs we don't have a need for a referral program.

It's a bad thing because it complicates the messaging of the refer program tremendously. It takes it from, "you get a piece of all their transactions for the lifetime of their account", too, "sometimes you get a piece of the transactions depending on what they are doing in bitshares and what they are using" .. which then derails the entire messaging into wanting to find out when and where that ultimately leads to 'damn this is just too complicated', or 'geez it looks like you only get some in a few cases.. why bother?', or worse 'this looks like you are tricking people into thinking you get something for refers when really they only get it for a few things.'

The refer program to "bring users" is only going to be as good as the opportunity it brings to those that promote it. If you marginalize it by excluding it through out the bitshares space, then all these new FBAs will have to go on their own marketing efforts to get users instead of leveraging the base that will be more excited and more incentive to spend money to promote the new features knowing the base they are targeting is going to directly result in refer income generated from the specific feature they referred them for.

The point is the refer system is not a stand alone to just bring in new users, it is an intrinsic marketing element that every part of the bitshare ecosystem can and will benefit from. While the share % out of a 20% portion will be smaller, it still can do the job of providing a marketing arm for all the new FBAs that come to the table.

Just because you build it, and investors are excited about it, doesn't mean they will come.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
www.Peerplays.com | Decentralized Gaming Built with Graphene - Now with BookiePro!
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Offline KenMonkey

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: kmnk
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2015, 04:08:49 am »
Polls/Voting, etc are not good means of prioritizing. Profit is perhaps the most important means of prioritizing.

As a company, Cryptonomex is interested in working on the most profitable features.  Those features that we can sell for the highest price will get the highest priority. 

It's important to realize some features are not directly profitable, but will result in more ease-of-use, security, or comfort for the user. For example I'd love to see the API improved (which will increase liquidity!) and also enabling 2FA to log into my wallet (btw is that crazy?).

This is a good idea, I'm hopeful that it takes off, but I also hope the "free" features like GUI improvements don't go by the wayside.

May the profit be with you!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 12:57:13 am by KenMonkey »

Offline Thom

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2015, 06:41:59 am »
A UIA is just an asset, you buy it or you don't. The bidding is something else which I am not familiar with in this context.

Thanks.

Bidding is just put a buy order (also called bid order)

Thx for trying bhuz, I need a little more to understand. Could you elaborate to clarify? I've never heard of a "bid order"
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline puppies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1659
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: puppies
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2015, 06:53:30 am »
A UIA is just an asset, you buy it or you don't. The bidding is something else which I am not familiar with in this context.

Thanks.

Bidding is just put a buy order (also called bid order)

Thx for trying bhuz, I need a little more to understand. Could you elaborate to clarify? I've never heard of a "bid order"

It is literally just placing an order to buy.  In a market you have offers to buy at different prices, or bids. 
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline CLains

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2605
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: clains
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2015, 12:10:18 pm »
The next level thing in BitShares is always some unexpected, ingenious plot twist. Out of nowhere we suddenly merged committee code implementations with UIAs with dividends with cut-of-fees with crowd-funding with prediction markets with worker proposals.

Offline Thom

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2015, 03:55:51 pm »
A UIA is just an asset, you buy it or you don't. The bidding is something else which I am not familiar with in this context.

Thanks.

Bidding is just put a buy order (also called bid order)

Thx for trying bhuz, I need a little more to understand. Could you elaborate to clarify? I've never heard of a "bid order"

It is literally just placing an order to buy.  In a market you have offers to buy at different prices, or bids.

Thx puppies. I can't seem to keep all these terms and the contexts they're used in straight in my mind. Terms are thrown around and it's difficult sometimes for me to see the correlation, especially when English is a secondary language for some posters.

You say "In a market you have offers to buy at different prices, or bids.", but not ALL markets behave as an auction or negotiation. Walk into most retail stores and there is no negotiation, the price is the price, take it or leave it. In BitShares 1.0 I had a UIA which I offered at $10BitUSD. Buyers that wanted one of those ponied up $10BitUSD for every one of the UIAs they wanted. They could buy half of one at $5.00 BitUSD, but the price was fixed.

So how can I discern when people discuss markets when the model is like the above vs. an auction? I would think the way to make that obvious is to use the terms BUY or BID, but what do I know.

In this FBA context it was also confusing b/c of the way the UIA is also used to gauge support for the feature. Also, the OP mentions a specific cost of the UIA which is tied to the amount of funding to be raised, so "bidding" or placing an order that is at some other price per share is like a negotiation or counter offer. Because of these variations it would be helpful to be more explicit in what action should be used to accomplish the intent.

Bidding brings to mind auctions, which is a negotiation of price.

Quite a different picture than saying a feature costs $20000, 100000 UIAs issued at $0.20 each (actually the equivalent BTS, or 50 - 60 BTS per UIA) so buy as many UIAs as you want to represent your interest in the feature. If you want a majority interest you would buy (not offer a bid for but to actually buy) at least 50001 UIAs.

I'm getting confused by the mixing of fixed funding costs vs. bidding which is a negotiable (i.e. variable) offer at some price.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 04:05:02 pm by Thom »
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Xeldal

  • Guest
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2015, 04:20:30 pm »
You say "In a market you have offers to buy at different prices, or bids.", but not ALL markets behave as an auction or negotiation. Walk into most retail stores and there is no negotiation, the price is the price, take it or leave it.

Its the same thing really.  The various bids or buys, are like various competing retail stores all competing for your dollars.  The highest bid is the only relevant bid if they can satisfy the amount you're looking to buy.  So the highest bid is the no negotiation, take it or leave it price.

Of course you can negotiate by placing a sell order(ask) above this price but you risk no one being willing to meet it.  You can do the same at a retail store (trying to get a discount) but you may not get it.   

Quote
I'm getting confused by the mixing of fixed funding costs vs. bidding which is a negotiable (i.e. variable) offer at some price.
Everything is negotiable.
The variable bidding allows everyone to reflect and gauge the relative importance of a proposed feature and to change their mind based on this and other information to perhaps support a different feature, without actually spending any money until finalized; or for a developer to lower their price target based on lower demand.  If there aren't enough bids on a particular feature it won't get done.  If a feature is perceived far more valuable then some fixed proposed cost, it will be bid up to whatever people are willing to pay.

For example if people feel the Stealth feature is worth more than 45k they can bid the price up above the 12 BTS/STEALTH.  This particular deal is a little different, in that OnceUpon gets all the STEALTH regardless, but with bids above 12 he might be incentivized to sell some for an instant profit.  Bids below 12, I think are meaningless, because the entire sum is being bought at 12, as a given.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 04:59:32 pm by Xeldal »

Offline yvv

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
    • View Profile
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2015, 05:00:31 pm »
You say "In a market you have offers to buy at different prices, or bids.", but not ALL markets behave as an auction or negotiation. Walk into most retail stores and there is no negotiation, the price is the price, take it or leave it.

Its the same thing really.  The various bids or buys, are like various competing retail stores all competing for your dollars.  The highest bid is the only relevant bid if they can satisfy the amount you're looking to buy.  So the highest bid is the no negotiation, take it or leave it price.

Of course you can negotiate by placing a sell order(ask) above this price but you risk no one being willing to meet it.  You can do the same at a retail store (trying to get a discount) but you may not get it.

There are actually terms for these two types of trades: market order and limit order. Market order is like checking different retail stores, choosing the cheapest one and accepting their prices. In bitshares you just accept lowest ask price. Limit order is when you say: this is the highest price I am willing to pay. If an offer with lower price is available, you take it, if not, you wait until somebody  accepts your offer.

Offline jtme

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2015, 05:16:47 pm »
4. Are the fees generated from FBAs standalone, or is the 20% that goes to the network eligible for the refer program to also gain from the features? My concern is that larger and larger portions of the eco-system develop and what the refer program claims to offer starts to become less true as what refers can earn becomes marginalized against all the other areas of Bitshares where transactions are occurring.

I'm not sure if this is a bad thing. The purpose of referral program is to get more users. If we get more users more effectively with FBAs we don't have a need for a referral program.

I have nowhere seen the discussion or rationale about 80/20 split.  Is it fair for the network
and shareholders ? Why not 90/10 or 50/50 ? Who sets ten numbers ? Should not this be
discusses or voted first what is fair for the network and for FBA holders ? Because
this percentage splits will be set forever !

Offline carpet ride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
    • View Profile
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2015, 05:38:31 pm »
4. Are the fees generated from FBAs standalone, or is the 20% that goes to the network eligible for the refer program to also gain from the features? My concern is that larger and larger portions of the eco-system develop and what the refer program claims to offer starts to become less true as what refers can earn becomes marginalized against all the other areas of Bitshares where transactions are occurring.

I'm not sure if this is a bad thing. The purpose of referral program is to get more users. If we get more users more effectively with FBAs we don't have a need for a referral program.

I have nowhere seen the discussion or rationale about 80/20 split.  Is it fair for the network
and shareholders ? Why not 90/10 or 50/50 ? Who sets ten numbers ? Should not this be
discusses or voted first what is fair for the network and for FBA holders ? Because
this percentage splits will be set forever !

Agree with these concerns.  Also concerning is that there is no business plan, especially in the case of the STEALTH asset.  With no business plan results will be disappointing and may cause shareholders to take measures that circumvent that FBA.  I see infighting in our future if profits for bts holders are not generously shared and if marketing is not well incentivized.
All opinions are my own. Anything said on this forum does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation between myself and anyone else.
Check out my blog: http://CertainAssets.com
Buy the ticket, take the ride.

jakub

  • Guest
Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2015, 05:41:55 pm »
It's a bad thing because it complicates the messaging of the refer program tremendously. It takes it from, "you get a piece of all their transactions for the lifetime of their account", too, "sometimes you get a piece of the transactions depending on what they are doing in bitshares and what they are using" .. which then derails the entire messaging into wanting to find out when and where that ultimately leads to 'damn this is just too complicated', or 'geez it looks like you only get some in a few cases.. why bother?', or worse 'this looks like you are tricking people into thinking you get something for refers when really they only get it for a few things.'

The refer program to "bring users" is only going to be as good as the opportunity it brings to those that promote it. If you marginalize it by excluding it through out the bitshares space, then all these new FBAs will have to go on their own marketing efforts to get users instead of leveraging the base that will be more excited and more incentive to spend money to promote the new features knowing the base they are targeting is going to directly result in refer income generated from the specific feature they referred them for.
As much as I like the FBA concept, BunkerChain Labs has a point that features implemented via FBAs are not very friendly for the Referral Program (as they undermine its revenue pool or at least make it more obscure).
I'd appreciate [member=5]bytemaster[/member] 's comment on this aspect.

EDIT: Now I've come to the conclusion that FBAs might bring about new features that wouldn't have come into existence in any other way.
So ideally FBAs will generate new revenue opportunities, thus they will not "steal" any existing revenue streams from the Referral Program.
But still it's a valid point that FBAs will make the Referral Program revenue structure more obscure as there will be several exceptions regarding what's included in the RP revenue stream and what's not.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 06:19:41 pm by jakub »

Offline Thom

Re: Millions of Features, Features for Me!
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2015, 05:51:53 pm »
Thx [member=448]Xeldal[/member] and [member=40079]yvv[/member] for your replies to my confusion. Your replies do help.

4. Are the fees generated from FBAs standalone, or is the 20% that goes to the network eligible for the refer program to also gain from the features? My concern is that larger and larger portions of the eco-system develop and what the refer program claims to offer starts to become less true as what refers can earn becomes marginalized against all the other areas of Bitshares where transactions are occurring.

I'm not sure if this is a bad thing. The purpose of referral program is to get more users. If we get more users more effectively with FBAs we don't have a need for a referral program.

I have nowhere seen the discussion or rationale about 80/20 split.  Is it fair for the network
and shareholders ? Why not 90/10 or 50/50 ? Who sets ten numbers ? Should not this be
discusses or voted first what is fair for the network and for FBA holders ? Because
this percentage splits will be set forever !

Agree with these concerns.  Also concerning is that there is no business plan, especially in the case of the STEALTH asset.  With no business plan results will be disappointing and may cause shareholders to take measures that circumvent that FBA.  I see infighting in our future if profits for bts holders are not generously shared and if marketing is not well incentivized.

This again? C'mon, go back and read the thread. Stan addressed the reason for the 80 / 20 split. In essence, it has become the "traditional" split for most efforts around here, like the referral program. I see this objection as just cloaked envy.

As to "no business plan", that is a valid concern, but nothing new around here. Most everything done around here is fly by night / seat of the pants, without market research, prototypes or the usual planning that goes into most business ventures. It's entrepreneurship, but with more risk and speculation. Lots more intuition and guesswork.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 05:57:47 pm by Thom »
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html