Mutual Aid Societies

[btswildpig]

Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

I had the same question for BM who just explained it to me on the whiteboard an hour ago.  Blew my mind. 

BM selected it from a list of all the ideas we've heard as the one he wants to invest his own resources in.  I now intend to join in that investment.  So has one of our whale supporters.

What makes an entrepreneur successful is being able to see the potential of an idea before others do and then overcome all roadblocks until success is achieved.  And you don't really expect an entrepreneur to share ALL the secrets that make them believe in it, do you?

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

The only thing I liked about BM was DPoS , decentralized exchange, IOUs with regulatory features . You don't need rocket pictures to demonstrate how powerful these three things is .

The rest , as it may sound good when I first heard about it , it all turns out to be BS , and the common thing is that you all need to present it with rocket pictures , weird and illogical argument and wild speculation . (merger , dilution and all and all ) 

I think a man who can come up with 3 useful and priceless inventions are already good enough . I don't have to take it seriously when there is more , especially when it comes to "bring more value,bring more users" .
It has been clear that he doesn't know what to do on that front . When it comes to technical solution , he excel on it . But when it comes to business and value solution ...........

[tonyk]

sorry to break this to you guys ....but someone in China already come up with such idea one month ago       the name was mutual aid insurance on blockchain .

yee, but I bet he does not have someone like Stan to properly present it with  rocket pictures, quote from obscure movies and books and stuff , and other attention loosing stuff!

 

[btswildpig]

sorry to break this to you guys ....but someone in China already come up with such idea one month ago       the name was mutual aid insurance on blockchain .

[tonyk]

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

Yeah, I try not to be too negative on projects like this. But I just don't see "the secret sauce" here.

And also I like to write down my predictions and reasoning behind them. I can later check if I was right and tune my mental models if I was wrong.

Few words about target audiences...

1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

2: Personally I wouldn't like to insurance people who drive recklessly and get fines. Very often they have deserved that.

3: Problems of intellectual property are very close to my heart, but I don't think an insurance will be very effective on that. It might even encourage the copyright mafia to extort more money from alleged pirates. If somebody is a member of insurance fund, he is an easy target because he will propably pay and not fight back.

I think most effective way would be to develop better, easier to use and more anonymous file sharing technology.

1&4: While I do not want to keep these criminalized, I have to say that these kind of behaviors are usually used for short term hedonistic purposes that don't bring much overall happiness to people.

Libertarians usually fail to admit that there should be a culture that will moderate the use of recreational drugs. If there is no law to prevent excessive use, there should be a culture that mandates other people to take care of those who are prone to the temptations of short term hedonistic pleasure.

I would rather see secret clubs for responsible drug users (make sure quality is good, take care of set & setting, etc.) and polyamoric relationships, swingers clubs, etc. for people wanting to have more sex than an insurance for random people who can behave however reckless they want with these substances and services.

And do you think that there will be lots of customers who are willing to provide evidence for a large group of total strangers to be carefully investigated that they got in trouble with hookers and cocaine after a wild night?

5: Unnecessary asset seizures are a big problem in USA, am I right? So this wouldn't be a big hit internationally, but I've heard that people really don't like how cops steal their property without any legitimate reason. This might be the best case for insurance and it wont even be too much controversial. Lots of people will love it and not many can seriously claim that police should have a right to rob people as they want.

well prepares failed us miserably in 1.0.... I do not recall a single prepare buying a single BTS, so we must now find other potential target groups..

I personally think reckless driving, free swinging not so recreational drug users watching illegal copies of star wars are the most lucrative group we should go after first... especially if they have only part but not all of their property seized!
What else do we need [after paying BM 3-4Milion to implement the necessary change on blockchain level, that is]? 100-200K volunteers per case to pay the necessary expenses and we are golden!

But you should see how good it sounds when BM draws it in a white board... or talks about it on Mumble!

[Samupaha]

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

Yeah, I try not to be too negative on projects like this. But I just don't see "the secret sauce" here.

And also I like to write down my predictions and reasoning behind them. I can later check if I was right and tune my mental models if I was wrong.

Few words about target audiences...

1. Those who are accused of possessing illegal substances but have not actually harmed anyone
2. Those who are accused of traffic violations for behavior that did not harm anyone
3. Those who are accused of copyright violation
4. Those who are accused of participating in prostitution that did not harm anyone and where no children are involved.   
5. Those who have their assets seized   

2: Personally I wouldn't like to insurance people who drive recklessly and get fines. Very often they have deserved that.

3: Problems of intellectual property are very close to my heart, but I don't think an insurance will be very effective on that. It might even encourage the copyright mafia to extort more money from alleged pirates. If somebody is a member of insurance fund, he is an easy target because he will propably pay and not fight back.

I think most effective way would be to develop better, easier to use and more anonymous file sharing technology.

1&4: While I do not want to keep these criminalized, I have to say that these kind of behaviors are usually used for short term hedonistic purposes that don't bring much overall happiness to people.

Libertarians usually fail to admit that there should be a culture that will moderate the use of recreational drugs. If there is no law to prevent excessive use, there should be a culture that mandates other people to take care of those who are prone to the temptations of short term hedonistic pleasure.

I would rather see secret clubs for responsible drug users (make sure quality is good, take care of set & setting, etc.) and polyamoric relationships, swingers clubs, etc. for people wanting to have more sex than an insurance for random people who can behave however reckless they want with these substances and services.

And do you think that there will be lots of customers who are willing to provide evidence for a large group of total strangers to be carefully investigated that they got in trouble with hookers and cocaine after a wild night?

5: Unnecessary asset seizures are a big problem in USA, am I right? So this wouldn't be a big hit internationally, but I've heard that people really don't like how cops steal their property without any legitimate reason. This might be the best case for insurance and it wont even be too much controversial. Lots of people will love it and not many can seriously claim that police should have a right to rob people as they want.

[Stan]

Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

I had the same question for BM who just explained it to me on the whiteboard an hour ago.  Blew my mind. 

BM selected it from a list of all the ideas we've heard as the one he wants to invest his own resources in.  I now intend to join in that investment.  So has one of our whale supporters.

What makes an entrepreneur successful is being able to see the potential of an idea before others do and then overcome all roadblocks until success is achieved.  And you don't really expect an entrepreneur to share ALL the secrets that make them believe in it, do you?

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

Great idea...let's keep it semi private (only teasing, as in this post) and milk the benefits with a series of "Spectacular" announcements in the autumn of 1016?

How is that for a plan?

Now, Also would be great time to ditch bitshares 2.0...they are so 2015 anyway.

We are happy with the BitShares platform and are now busy building on it. 
BM will continue to share his dreams and enthusiasms with those who want to hear them.
I will continue to try to keep his mouth shut (so I can spill the beans myself).
Others can do what they please.

[merivercap]

I think this will resonate with libertarian circles so I can help test the idea there.   It's not going to be easy as Samupaha mentioned, but I think it will be a good experiment.   Also I like the idea of going for libertarians because I think we can get more of them into bitcoin/bitshares technology and once they get in they'll be strong advocates. 

Another quote from Peter Kropotkin which is relevant to the philosophical, biological, and societal underpinnings of mutual aid.

A soon as we study animals — not in laboratories and museums only, but in the forest and prairie, in the steppe and in the mountains — we at once perceive that though there is an immense amount of warfare and extermination going on amidst various species, and especially amidst various classes of animals, there is, at the same time, as much, or perhaps even more, of mutual support, mutual aid, and mutual defence amidst animals belonging to the same species or, at least, to the same society. Sociability is as much a law of nature as mutual struggle. Of course it would be extremely difficult to estimate, however roughly, the relative numerical importance of both these series of facts. But if we resort to an indirect test, and ask Nature: "Who are the fittest: those who are continually at war with each other, or those who support one another?" we at once see that those animals which acquire habits of mutual aid are undoubtedly the fittest. They have more chances to survive, and they attain, in their respective classes, the highest development and bodily organization. If the numberless facts which can be brought forward to support this view are taken into account, we may safely say that mutual aid is as much a law of animal life as mutual struggle; but that as a factor of evolution, it most probably has a far greater importance, inasmuch as it favors the development of such habits and characters as insure the maintenance and further development of the species, together with the greatest amount of welfare and enjoyment of life for the individual, with the least waste of energy.

-Mutual Aid as a Factor in Evolution, by Peter Kropotkin

Nice quote @lovejoy ... haven't read much of Kropotkin, but very good insight.

[tonyk]

Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

I had the same question for BM who just explained it to me on the whiteboard an hour ago.  Blew my mind. 

BM selected it from a list of all the ideas we've heard as the one he wants to invest his own resources in.  I now intend to join in that investment.  So has one of our whale supporters.

What makes an entrepreneur successful is being able to see the potential of an idea before others do and then overcome all roadblocks until success is achieved.  And you don't really expect an entrepreneur to share ALL the secrets that make them believe in it, do you?

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

Great idea...let's keep it semi private (only teasing, as in this post) and milk the benefits with a series of "Spectacular" announcements in the autumn of 1016?

How is that for a plan?

Now, Also would be great time to ditch bitshares 2.0...they are so 2015 anyway.

[Stan]

Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

I had the same question for BM who just explained it to me on the whiteboard an hour ago.  Blew my mind. 

BM selected it from a list of all the ideas we've heard as the one he wants to invest his own resources in.  I now intend to join in that investment.  So has one of our whale supporters.

What makes an entrepreneur successful is being able to see the potential of an idea before others do and then overcome all roadblocks until success is achieved.  And you don't really expect an entrepreneur to share ALL the secrets that make them believe in it, do you?

Hopefully there will be lots of entrepreneurs bringing other ideas they believe in to the BitShares platform and pouring their energy and resources into making them happen.  In general, we will not see everything in it that they see, so we will always be unqualified to assess the full merits (unless they need to reveal enough to raise funds from us.)

We need as a community to resist the urge to throw cold water on every idea that shows up.   That does nothing to encourage other entrepreneurs to join us.  New businesses adopting our platform will be its lifeblood from now on.  Let's try to think positive.

[tonyk]

Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

well it woks great* in BM's head ...on first thought...

so shut up, and listen!


*should I say perfectly or should I say like a  TITAN blockchain; or as a perfectly pegged bitAsset?]

[Samupaha]

Damn. I was hoping Bytemaster had something more interesting in mind (ref: last mumble hangout). I'm usually very supportive of his ideas but this time I'm quite skeptical. In theory a good concept but I'm afraid that people are just too lazy to actually use an insurance like this.

A few years back we had similar insurance here in Finland. It was set up by hippies who wanted free public transport. For 15 euros per month or 150 euros per year the customer got his fines paid by the fund if she/he got caught by ticket inspector. I don't remember how long it was functioning but less than a year I think. Maybe only a couple of months.

Under this system individuals can only receive benefits if they are a victim, produce verifiable evidence, and have the support of a large number of independent users who individually transfer funds from user to user.

Here we have the first problem. How you are going to incentivize a large number of independent people to verify the evidence and make a transfer? Some people will do this if they love the concept so much, but I suspect that's not going to be a very large group.

This reminds me of Judge.me that was web-based a dispute resolution service. Totally amazing idea but unfortunately people just didn't want to use it enough so it was stopped. Never underestimate the laziness of people when planning new kinds of services.

My guess is that this will not gain any meaningful traction. Handful of libertarians get excited but that's not enough to actually get lots of profit for Bitshares.

[lovejoy]

Oh snap.  Operation Christmas.

You may have to elaborate on that a bit more, but I think I catch your meaning.

There are so many use cases, and so many brilliant PR moves with mutual aid societies.  Bonus for any charity not just cynically employed in service of PR, but mutually beneficial strategic partnerships with organizations devoted to educational resources and sustainable development.

Also, what @CLains said.

[puppies]

Oh snap.  Operation Christmas. 

[bytemaster]

İs this what BM briefly mentioned on mumble session ? He said demand for BTS will increase without dilution.

Yes

[bitacer]

İs this what BM briefly mentioned on mumble session ? He said demand for BTS will increase without dilution.