Author Topic: Mutual Aid Societies  (Read 32470 times)

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Offline topcandle


I think the needs to to be a core development on the tools and infrastructure. If the tools and infrastructure is sound then multiple philosophies can be overlaid on Bitshares.  Get the proper roads and brigdes up and nearly any vehicle can use it. If your philosophy can't drive on the road then Bitshares is the wrong platform for you.  Trying to bend Bitshares to fit every philosophy will only cause it to snap.

Yes.  This comment deserves front page status
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Offline Pheonike


I think the needs to to be a core development on the tools and infrastructure. If the tools and infrastructure is sound then multiple philosophies can be overlaid on Bitshares.  Get the proper roads and brigdes up and nearly any vehicle can use it. If your philosophy can't drive on the road then Bitshares is the wrong platform for you.  Trying to bend Bitshares to fit every philosophy will only cause it to snap.

Offline jamesc

sorry to break this to you guys ....but someone in China already come up with such idea one month ago   :P    the name was mutual aid insurance on blockchain .
lol -- remember, copyright violation was on the list...

Offline donkeypong

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Most of those ideas are not tenable in practice.

I found this interesting.
Ancient Irelands Anarchy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svyJuSZdnuI

Ireland, for 1000 years was a stateless libertarian society. "It was a highly complex society, that was for centuries the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of western Europe"

saying the ideas are not tenable in practice ignores this history.


That one has been pretty well debunked. Basically, the Celts had an oral history and little is known about how the place was governed back then, other than a few choice snippets. In political philosophy, a number of different thinkers (from various ideologies) have used "Ancient Ireland" to try to illustrate how their own philosophy was practiced there, but the point is moot because there aren't really any records to back up any of them. In old Irish, "tuatha" meant "nation", not the modern Irish meaning of "countryside," which some anarchists and libertarians have seized upon. Brehon Law was not consented to; it was based on tradition, much like the concept of precedent in common law. Look again at your guy's description of the king's powers: they sound much more like a democracy (and I'm just picking that out of a hat, not trying to endorse any system) than they do an anarchist republic. There were some shared powers, as a democracy has. But I'm even pretty skeptical about that. You'd better believe that king was warlord in chief. In fact, to even treat "Ancient Ireland" like a country is basically imposing the modern standard of state on it, because look anywhere in the world and you'll see that at that time, there weren't these large nations. People did not have modern communication or travel, so when we're talking about "kings", they were essentially clan leaders. That was true throughout most of the world, the only exception being areas that had stronger military control, in which case they had bigger territories and you can call those nations if it suits you. Basically, "Ancient Ireland" is fodder for a lot of historical nutcase arguments; some will even say it was a fascist haven or a Druid kingdom. Maybe it was ruled by elves; we'll never know.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 06:14:10 pm by donkeypong »

Xeldal

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Most of those ideas are not tenable in practice.

I found this interesting.
Ancient Irelands Anarchy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svyJuSZdnuI

Ireland, for 1000 years was a stateless libertarian society. "It was a highly complex society, that was for centuries the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of western Europe"

saying the ideas are not tenable in practice ignores this history.

other interesting:
https://mises.org/library/law-without-state

How would private law work?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2WhnOHCpKs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0_Jd_MzGCw

Offline donkeypong

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Yeah, I kind of got the idea you came from the Mises Wikipedia school of thought. ;) Most of those ideas are not tenable in practice. But we can agree to disagree. I certainly share your interest in improving the system in ways that are positive and unlock us from certain vested interests.


I haven't understood a word of your posts, so no, I don't much logical fallacy. Do you? I see your much and raise you more. My posts were much more directed at that other moron who says written laws should be eliminated. If so, there isn't much you can do to prevent accidents on the ice. Or ISIS babes from causing orgasms. Much is more. Yoda not far.

Viz, you have some pedigree, having won BM's poetry contest and taken home the reward (back around merger time, if I recall). But since then, you surely have fallen off the deep end. Had me in stitches, though.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 05:10:23 pm by donkeypong »

Offline merivercap

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I agree with you on not imprisoning non-violent drug offenders. As far as penalties, there is great room for improvement, and I love your idea about having criminals work to pay back their debt to society...would be a huge improvement over a prison system that (I agree) is very corrupt. But the system and the laws are not always the same thing; you continue to paint them with the same brush and I understand you have some major distrust of both. But I would be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater when the fixes may not mean dismantling everything society has built to address its problems. Regarding criminal law, the crimes are pretty similar in most states and the legislatures revisit them on a regular basis. Many of them do go back a very long time; take a look at the Ten Commandments and compare with any state criminal code. You can just take the 'easy way out' scoundrel's argument that government created all of it and therefore it's all evil, but to a large extent, this is society''s way of dealing with these problems and if you create new solutions, then over time they pretty much will end up in the same place.

Overall, I don't think I agree with you on very much. You are very, very far off on your concept that eliminating statute law will save any sort of money. Courts and trials are by far the most expensive aspect of the system. That is precisely why, at every step of the process, courts and judges try like hell to get everyone to settle and keep their cases out of court. Believe me, you do NOT want a world where the rules come only from case law. That would be a full on nightmare.

Hey at least we agree on some things.   Yeah some of the laws are based in part on some principles and that's fine.  A lot of this discussion is based on perspective too.  I'm speaking more from an idealistic & theoretical standpoint and just presenting alternatives.  We're creatures of habit and governments are typically slow to adapt because there just really aren't enough competitive free market forces to make government processes efficient.  It's good to check in at the local DMV every once in a while to see what 'progress' looks like.  Sure governments have some constraints to be efficient only enough to maintain solvency and as long as they can continue taxing people.   We can go down the line about foreign policy & wars, healthcare/welfare, education, commerce, money etc and it's common for people to theorize about alternatives that are better.  Most may not say these areas are completely broken, but I think most will agree that they can significantly be improved.  I say the judicial system is no different.  It just may take many decades to improve for all I know. 

Good thing is that technology gives us some potential for significant change.  We're experiencing that with Bitcoin/Bitshares in the area of money & commerce.  Blockchains and smart contracts may make commerce more efficient and eliminate legal friction.  Once we start seeing more collateralized smart contracts that execute agreements with code there will be far less disputes.  Possession is 9/10ths of the law.  You can extend that out further and envision a society where people are bonded and insured for many activities with smart contracts.  Who knows technology may eventually make much of government obsolete in the distant future. 

BTW another random idea about mutual aid... I've seen startups working on security mobile apps and I think there is major potential there.  You can create a mutual aid defense & security system simply with a mobile app and GPS.  Anytime you're in trouble you just click a button on your smartphone and notify members in your area for help.  Will mutual security be made illegal? 

Anyways much of what I talk about are theoretical and so I'm not expecting that things will change overnight, but I'm optimistic about potential progress over the coming years and decades.   
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Offline puppies

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Logical fallacy much?

I haven't understood a word of your posts, so no, I don't much logical fallacy. Do you? I see your much and raise you more. My posts were much more directed at that other moron who says written laws should be eliminated. If so, there isn't much you can do to prevent accidents on the ice. Or ISIS babes from causing orgasms. Much is more. Yoda not far.

Please just listen to the mp3 I posted, and then Google libertarian security theory.  You're attacking a strawman. 

No one here is arguing that we should shoot up meth and have sex with a terrorist while driving a zamboni.  See I can straw man too.
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Offline Vizzini

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Logical fallacy much?

I haven't understood a word of your posts, so no, I don't much logical fallacy. Do you? I see your much and raise you more. My posts were much more directed at that other moron who says written laws should be eliminated. If so, there isn't much you can do to prevent accidents on the ice. Or ISIS babes from causing orgasms. Much is more. Yoda not far.
Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Offline puppies

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Thou Shalt Not Drive a Zamboni While Drunk. Even if you do not mow over small children on the ice, you will create ruts and rough spots that make skating dangerously unpleasant.

Would you arrest the bastard? Or would you wait for "consequences" first? It's always fun until someone loses an eye...or some kid loses a leg. Unfortunately, there's no legal recourse if we have eliminated our written laws. Preventative maintenance is out the window with risk prevention. So let daddy due the Zamboni operator, the Zomboni company and its subcontractors, the ice skating rink, the insurance companies, the skate maker, the water company...yeah, and that will save society a ton of money, won't it? Fucking amateur hour.


http://www.steinbachonline.com/local/impaired-zamboni-driver-charged


Logical fallacy much?

https://mises.org/files/socialism-confounds-government-and-society-frederic-bastiatmp3

Just because we reject the premeditated violence of the state does not mean that we don't believe in security.  The old your ownership of your fist ends at my nose argument is a straw man. 

If you're unwilling to look for solutions outside of the false dichotomy of public and private criminals you won't find it.
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Offline Vizzini

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What about a woman getting f****ed while she chants "ISIS is good, ISIS is great"? If you're the 82-year-old who overhears this, do you call it in or wait for the fireworks to blow? If we didn't have laws, we'd have to wait for "consequences". Or do we stop them before they breed?

http://www.cbs58.com/story/30802530/police-woman-chants-isis-is-good-isis-is-great-during-sex
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 07:49:27 am by Vizzini »
Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Offline Vizzini

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Thou Shalt Not Drive a Zamboni While Drunk. Even if you do not mow over small children on the ice, you will create ruts and rough spots that make skating dangerously unpleasant.

Would you arrest the bastard? Or would you wait for "consequences" first? Drunk Zamboni driving is always fun until someone loses an eye...or some kid loses a leg. Unfortunately, there's no legal recourse if we have eliminated our written laws. We have no incentive to reduce risks anymore as a society. So just let daddy due the Zamboni operator, the Zamboni company and its subcontractors, the ice skating rink, the insurance companies, the skate maker, the water company...yeah, and that will save society a ton of money, won't it? Fucking amateur hour.


http://www.steinbachonline.com/local/impaired-zamboni-driver-charged

« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 07:37:54 am by Vizzini »
Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Offline puppies

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I have thought that if I was rich I would hire a group of attorneys to defend all bs crimes.  Drag them all out
  Cost the state as much as possible.  Make it too expensive for the state to prosecute victim less crimes.
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Offline donkeypong

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I agree with you on not imprisoning non-violent drug offenders. As far as penalties, there is great room for improvement, and I love your idea about having criminals work to pay back their debt to society...would be a huge improvement over a prison system that (I agree) is very corrupt. But the system and the laws are not always the same thing; you continue to paint them with the same brush and I understand you have some major distrust of both. But I would be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater when the fixes may not mean dismantling everything society has built to address its problems. Regarding criminal law, the crimes are pretty similar in most states and the legislatures revisit them on a regular basis. Many of them do go back a very long time; take a look at the Ten Commandments and compare with any state criminal code. You can just take the 'easy way out' scoundrel's argument that government created all of it and therefore it's all evil, but to a large extent, this is society''s way of dealing with these problems and if you create new solutions, then over time they pretty much will end up in the same place.

Overall, I don't think I agree with you on very much. You are very, very far off on your concept that eliminating statute law will save any sort of money. Courts and trials are by far the most expensive aspect of the system. That is precisely why, at every step of the process, courts and judges try like hell to get everyone to settle and keep their cases out of court. Believe me, you do NOT want a world where the rules come only from case law. That would be a full on nightmare.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 04:43:14 am by donkeypong »

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

In 5 years you can drive drunk all you want.. because the car will be driving itself. Problem solved. That problem anyways.. never mind the 40% of violent crimes.. that's not the debate here. :)

By then though we will have more exotic methods of mass placation people will believe governments have allowed to be more accessible because the people wanted it. That is always the messaging to sell anything. Pot is coming into fashion for now.. with innovations happening now new forms will become exceedingly efficient.
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